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Going for Gold: Pantheons

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. soupwithsauce

    soupwithsauce Chieftain

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    Which pantheons would everyone say can consistently found a religion every game? I find when I go tradition-stonehenge-goddess of beauty, I am either first or second founder. Then vice versa when I take a tile based pantheon, like earth mother for example, I am scraping faith to hopefully be the last founder even when mines are plentiful. Not founding a religion is enough for a ragequit, I can’t stand losing my pantheon yields :cry:
     
  2. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    I'd say Expanse+Tradition. Also Commerce and Springtime are very strong, but they require some serious commitment that put you behind in other aspects (especially culture, which will hurt a lot, so you need to know what you are doing)
     
  3. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Why not open an online excel sheet with all regular pantheons and everyone can add a column with his own strength rating to all pantheon? An average value will be taken and then we can see, which pantheon is seen as too weak or too strong. (maybe additional a favor/like sheet is done to see which pantheon mechanic is liked most, to add more of the chosen kind)
     
  4. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    God-King does not feel significant at any point in the game.

    And with The Morrigan, I am not entirely sure that I ever care about getting GAP from kills, and am not exactly sure how to synergize that with the GG points from the UB.
     
  5. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Chieftain

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    The one that I've consistently founded with is Goddess of Protection. I have a fairly specific playstyle though, so I wouldn't expect it to perform as well for other people.
     
  6. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    I'd love to hear how this works.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  7. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Chieftain

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    So basically I play Shoshone and beeline Military Tradition first. This gets me access to Barracks pretty early on, and therefore two sources of faith per city (shrine and barracks). Military tradition is also where the Shoshone UI unlocks, which I find to be rather powerful, plus you can built horsemen! Because Animal Husbandry is a prereq for MT, I know where the horses are on the map early-on.

    In terms of build order, I start with a scout, then go shrine, warrior, monument, warrior/archer -> Temple of Artemis -> Settler, Archer, Settler, Barracks, Horseman. ToA is not really optimal, I just like it. I tweak this order depending on context of course. I use the Progress tree to speed up my tech aquisition and give me a free worker to build my UI and grab those horses.

    The other thing that's relevant is that I use my scouts and the Shoshone's ability to pick Ruins upgrades to get a pantheon as soon as it is available! After Military Theory I beeline Sailing so that my recon units can grab those ruins I spotted off the coast (as well as discover city states and new landmasses) before anyone else does.

    During this process I can usually get two faith boosts from ancient ruins with the help of my (now fairly high level) recon units :). I'm usually also able to get two free techs during my early exploration too (most commonly is one of them is Pottery or Trapping, which are very useful). For context, I play on Prince, Epic speed, Huge map, Continents Plus.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
    CrazyG likes this.
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    You should give Japan a try, they work well with this style because they get extra faith from military buildings.

    Also give god of the open sky a try if you get a good amount of pastures nearby. Its much less faith, but it mixes well with Shoshone's encampments.
     
    Gothic_Empire and JamesNinelives like this.
  9. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Chieftain

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    Thanks, I do really like the Japanese special promotions. Getting extra great people is cool too! My plan was to try Indonesia next for the Kris Swordsmen as you get them earlier. Maybe I'll try both!

    I probably would use God of the Open Sky in a lot of cases, expect that I actually use Advanced Start to give myself a Jungle/Grassland bias with Shoshone haha. It's probably a bit strange, but I really like the sounds of birds and wildlife from being in or near the jungle! Also, the jungle resources are my favourites.

    The other pantheons I like are God of the Sea if I start near the coast, and Goddess of Love - mostly for flavour. Love works well with ToA though, and Way of Transcendance belief which I like. It's harder to found, but it does give back a lot of faith once you start expanding. The Shoshone have a strong early-game already, so you don't need to worry so much about not getting as many benefits in the short-term.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
    Gothic_Empire likes this.
  10. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Chieftain

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    So, how have the food/settling changes affected Pantheons?
    Growth and expansion have slowed, which in turn have slowed early science.
    I believe that has boosted some Pantheons and decreased the potency of others... The changes are not huge but the margin to get a religion is often razor-thin, so the impact can be felt.
    We may need to look at them again (one of the downsides of such a significant balance change).

    To start off the discussion:
    - That means it takes longer to discover 2nd-column tech, so I believe Pantheons that rely on buildings (markets / barracks & walls) or improvements (quarries) in that column are weaker.
    Pantheons relying on population numbers (God-King, Ancestor) or number of cities (Commerce, Wisdom) are worse off too.
    This is the main issue in my mind.

    = Goddess of Beauty is unaffected. Perhaps there's even a new strategy using it and Pyramids.
    Pantheons relying on early buildings (Granaries), early improvements (camps / mines), just terrain (Renewal, Sun & Sky, Desert) or something else (All-Creation, Expanse, War) are largely unaffected too

    + Goddess of Life Love is perhaps the only Pantheon boosted directly since Settlers lowering pop actually mean faster pops.

    In my most recent game, I founded last with Goddess of Protection, but I had Mount Sinai at my 2nd city (+2 faith from a very early stage).
    We'll need many more observations for anecdotal evidence to matter.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
    Rhys DeAnno likes this.
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    Expanse and the quarry pantheon are actually quite a bit worse than before because spamming monuments is much slower and weaker than before. I don't think this is a call for a buff though, as they were really easy to win with before.

    Wisdom and Commerce are very, very strong pantheons still. The scaling faith they have is really high (by medieval era, your science is easily more than enough to always maximize the bonus). I find that (without exactly zealotry), I cannot dump faith quickly enough. This means that they generate more religious pressure than other options in the mid-game. Ancestor Worship is pretty good, it is rarely my first choice but usually a good backup plan that I take when my first choice wasn't available.

    You mean Goddess of Love, right? I haven't chosen it, but other bonus for population growth (like progress or councils) won't reactivate if the city lost the population. For example, when you grow to 4 pop the first time, you get the bonus. But then a settler lowers the city pop to 3, then you regrow to 4 pop, you won't get the bonus again. I think that Goddess of Love be consistent with these rules if it isn't.
     
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  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Chieftain

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    Wisdom is certainly good. Ancestor Worship still seems pretty strong to me as well.

    Love does actually trigger every time pop increases. Goddess of Love is my go-to pantheon. Edit: Nope, I was totally wrong. It doesn't trigger more than once per pop.

    Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is that food and growth are much more valuable now. Goddess of Fertility, God of the Sun, and Goddess of Purity are particularly nice for this reason. Goddess of the Hunt and God of the Stars and Sky benefit similarly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
  13. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    I don't think I have ever used Purity. I've never had more than 2 or 3 marshes/lakes near my capital and even then, there was maybe one good spot for another city with marshes/lakes.
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    That's because of the map. Some maps give you a start with 8 lake tiles, enough for the pantheon to found.
     
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  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    My current fractal map. My 2nd city had 8 lake spots, capital had 1, 3rd city had 1. So it does happen.

    Its like Nature for me. A lot of times you get no mountains and would never take it. But then once in a while you get this amazing beautiful mountain start and that pantheon is awesome.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ultimately its a short term kind of pantheon. Its really good early on, and starts to tapper later in the game. But its a tremendous early game boost.
     
  18. Bromar1

    Bromar1 Chieftain

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    If Purity had +1 happy on freshwater cities instead of just river cities, it could be a more interesting early game steroid. As it stands, it only seems okay in very very few circumstances, probably more niche than goddess of nature IMO
     
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  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Agree. It's alike of picking Authority because you need a strong early game, not because of you plan on warmongering nonstop.
    A good thing is that you don't have to improve any tile, just work on the lake tile and you get faith. With that, it's very easy to found (you also grow faster so you can work on all those tiles pretty soon). Then you can forget about the pantheon and focus on the religion. I've never ever considered marshes with it, it's like icing on the cake. If I'm not mistaken, the long term bonus is just +1 happiness per city you manage to settle on rivers, which you should do if you plan on taking this.
     
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  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I personally kind of prefer pantheons to more short term oriented.

    Purity is worthwhile sometimes due to a large number of lakes. While it is somewhat rare on pangea or continents, on map scripts such as Oval it is commonly a great choice. I view the marshes as a minor addition to an already worthwhile choice.
     
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