Going for Gold: Pantheons

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?


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my 1 problem with the pantheon is there ultimately is no reason to keep the marshes around. No buildings/policies continue to reward you for keeping marshland, and eventually your regular improvements will overtake that 4:c5food:1:c5production:1:c5faith: boosted marsh tile.

I'd love to see a reason to keep marshes around, like science once you build universities or something.

Granted for much of civilization marshes were a source of disease and generally a nuisance. The city I live in was only possible after 'draining the swamp'. Nowadays though we recognize that wetlands are hotspots of biodiversity, as well as acting as natural filters for toxins and mitigating damage from floods and other natural disasters.
 
You can build Polders on marshes, so it's a very niche choice for the Netherlands (if for some reason you aren't taking Festivals and you live in a marshland), I guess.
 
You can build Polders on marshes, so it's a very niche choice for the Netherlands (if for some reason you aren't taking Festivals and you live in a marshland), I guess.

Doesn't that remove the marsh though? Do you still get the Goddess of Purity benefits?
 
I never played William but I'd imagine it doesn't remove the marsh since that would make the polder construction stop immediately unless it's a fresh water tile too.
 
Spirit of the Desert is another food pantheon, it's probably even more strong than before because of it, borders on OP in a lot of situations. Honestly I would like to see the Tundra Pantheon (Stars and Sky iirc) behave in the same way (not needing improvements), Desert is already usually better than Tundra due to Flood Plains, having its Pantheon function more quickly too is a bit lots.

I agree it can be very difficult to found with 2nd Column pantheons like Springtime, and I'm not sure the best way to address it. If you just boost the numbers their long term could get a little ridiculous.
 
Yup, but on the other hand long-term it can be better to remove marshes and rebuild the polder, beacuse later on you'll be losing yields from the wind farm.
 
So, how have the food/settling changes affected Pantheons?
Growth and expansion have slowed, which in turn have slowed early science.
I believe that has boosted some Pantheons and decreased the potency of others... The changes are not huge but the margin to get a religion is often razor-thin, so the impact can be felt.
We may need to look at them again (one of the downsides of such a significant balance change).

To start off the discussion:
- That means it takes longer to discover 2nd-column tech, so I believe Pantheons that rely on buildings (markets / barracks & walls) or improvements (quarries) in that column are weaker.
Pantheons relying on population numbers (God-King, Ancestor) or number of cities (Commerce, Wisdom) are worse off too.
This is the main issue in my mind.

= Goddess of Beauty is unaffected. Perhaps there's even a new strategy using it and Pyramids.
Pantheons relying on early buildings (Granaries), early improvements (camps / mines), just terrain (Renewal, Sun & Sky, Desert) or something else (All-Creation, Expanse, War) are largely unaffected too

+ Goddess of Life Love is perhaps the only Pantheon boosted directly since Settlers lowering pop actually mean faster pops.

In my most recent game, I founded last with Goddess of Protection, but I had Mount Sinai at my 2nd city (+2 faith from a very early stage).
We'll need many more observations for anecdotal evidence to matter.

I've try to vary pantheons a bit but there are those that I've never taken as I basically always play wide warmonger.
Food for pantheon is really nice and food is very important to get authority rolling.

For wide Authority I really like pantheons that provide "free faith"
God of the Sea,
this is a new favourite, the free faith AND food is awesome for early game, helps churning out settlers from capital and quickly building a few pop in new cities.
There is extra flat production on workboats and atolls so in all its 3 bonuses on one pantheon. Of course, if you dont have a coastal start its a no-go.
Commerce free faith and gold, gives nice early game flexibility and keeps scaling, extra good with civs that can create city connection automatic (carthage free lighthouse, iroqois connect with forest, songhai connect with rivers)
God of protection is a favourite +2free faith from palace AND +1 culture, I'll be building walls/barracks sooner or later, cool with fountain of youth for +15heal/turn.
God of war, can be an extremly good faith source, can dud in rare cases if I'm a bit boxed in and no barb spawn space.
God of nature, very op as Incas, very rare to have enough mountains for it as non-inca but if you have, take.
God of renewal, very very good for several forest/jungle biased civs, iroqois and siam for example and worth taking as other civs as well if I have a dense forest/jungle start.

Reasonable:
God of expanse with Russia,
it does however not produce as much faith as you'd think, so it requires quite an investments in fast expand and shrines.
Open sky as Mongols, they have plains bias and UB ger (granary replacement) which makes it viable, but just as russia you need to hurry up.
God of fertility I put this here but ... not sure, I've yet to try it, looks reasonable for authority if you plan going authority -> statecraft/artistry and miss out on the food bonus from fealty.
I think the +1 faith looks a bit low, if it was +2 from shrines and zero from well/watermill it would definitely be better.
There is not the extra hammers that god of the sea provides and no faith until shrines but you get the bonus food on landlocked cities.
God of the Sun could provide a strong start, granaries are a priority and allows for granary as first building in new cities instead of shrine.
The +food from wheat is not as good since it requires a tile improvement.

Beware if you are not spain, byzantium:
Earth mother and god of the hunt
, provides decent bonuses but fades as your empire widens since only some cities will have the prereq tiles.
You need to improve tiles asap which probably means you're delaying setters and more shrines. Risky but the extra hammers from EM and culture from hunt is nice.
If you have good tiles for hunt then Renewal is likely to be as good if not even a better option.
Spirit of the Desert, you probably dont have that many tiles with resources, non resource desert give 0 faith. BUT now with the low food situation it can definitely be viable if you have some oases.

Avoid:
God of craftsman
, it requires a tech on the second tier, save this for your tradition games or something which basically means it gives you zero faith until construction +the turns to improve tiles.

All this is on the idea that I want to found, if you dont mind taking over AI religion then other options are probably better.
 
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My current test of God of Fertility showed one thing, it allows you to delay granary for a long time and put hammers elsewhere.
(I got too much faith from city states to say if the belief is good for founding or not.)
 
I tried Open Sky as authority France on a great plains start, but only managed to found because there's a religious CS nearby that I could heavy tribute. +1 faith per pasture is really low, and it turned out there were more bison (camps) than pastures nearby.
 
I tried Open Sky as authority France on a great plains start, but only managed to found because there's a religious CS nearby that I could heavy tribute. +1 faith per pasture is really low, and it turned out there were more bison (camps) than pastures nearby.

That's unlucky. Bison do turn up more often in plains though. Grassland is the best for Open Sky as it has cattle as well as horses (and potentially sheep if there are hills around) :).
 
So gave the new Springtime a whirl as Indonesia. It definitely flows better, overall the tech path feels more natural than it did before. In terms of founding capability, playing tradition (so the +3 faith is in play) and beelining calendar, I was on track to found on Turn 112 (I consider turn 100 the cutoff for Immortal, if I found after that its because of luck).

I might be able to make some tweaks to see if I can speed it up, but its not feeling viable for a found at the moment unless the stars align. The herbalist takes a long time to build...so you are getting 0 faith for quite a while. On the other hand, the core benefits are pretty nice. Right now, I think just a +1 faith base is all it needs to be a solid pantheon.
 
I still think the plantations themselves need faith like other improvement-based pantheons, if just for flavour.
 
Since there's a lot of discussion about new beliefs, I thought that we should revisit some of the old pantheons. Some of them are at a good spot while others need buffs or even nerfs. I'm mainly focusing on making most of them somewhat competitive in founding a religion but the other bonuses will be looked at as well. Some numbers below will need tweaking for sure.

Below are pantheons I think are at a good spot:

Earth Mother
God of All Creation
God of Commerce
God of Expanse
God of the Sea
God of the Sun
God King
Goddess of Love
Goddess of Nature
Goddess of Protection
Goddess of Purity
Goddess of Renewal
Goddess of Springtime
Spirit of the Desert


-Pantheons that need nerfs (with changes in bracket):

Goddess of Beauty (+2 :c5faith: Faith from Palace and World Wonders, +1 :c5faith: Faith from Great Works. +3 Great Artist Points in your Capital)


-Pantheons that need buffs (with changes in bracket):

Ancestor Worship (+1 :c5faith: Faith for every 3 :c5citizen: Citizens in a city; +1 :c5culture: Culture and :c5faith: Faith from Councils)

God of Craftsmen ( +2 :c5faith: Faith from Quarries. +1 :c5faith: Faith, +1 :c5gold: Gold and 2 :c5production: Production from Stone Works. +1 :c5culture: Culture and :c5gold: Gold from Monuments.)

God of the Open Sky (+1 :c5faith: Faith to nearby Sheep and Cattle. +1 :c5faith: Faith and +3 :c5gold: Gold from Pastures.)

God of the Stars and Sky (+2 :c5food: Food from Tundra tiles, +1 :c5science: Science, +2 :c5faith: Faith and +1 :c5gold: Gold from Tundra tiles with improved resources.)

God of War (+10% :c5production: Production towards Units. Gain :c5faith: Faith from killing military units. When units are promoted, gain :c5faith: Faith based on their current level)

Goddess of Fertility (+1 :c5food: Food and :c5faith: Faith from Shrines. +1 :c5faith: Faith :c5food: Food and :c5gold: Gold from Farms)

Goddess of Festivals ( +3 :c5gold: Gold, +2 :c5culture: Culture and +1 :c5faith: Faith for every unique Luxury Resource imported. +2 :c5faith: Faith for every unique Luxury Resource owned.)

Goddess of the Hunt (+1 :c5faith: Faith, :c5food: Food and :c5culture: Culture from Camps. +1 :c5faith: Faith to nearby Deer)
 
Goddess of Beauty (+2 :c5faith: Faith from Palace and World Wonders, +1 :c5faith: Faith from Great Works. +3 Great Artist Points in your Capital)

--Beauty could probably use a small nerf as now you have two good avenues to use it with Pyramid or Stonehenge rush. You could probably keep both GA and GE but drop it to 2 instead of 3.



Ancestor Worship (+1 :c5faith: Faith for every 3 :c5citizen: Citizens in a city; +1 :c5culture: Culture and :c5faith: Faith from Councils)

--Makes sense to me.

God of Craftsmen ( +2 :c5faith: Faith from Quarries. +1 :c5faith: Faith, +1 :c5gold: Gold and 2 :c5production: Production from Stone Works. +1 :c5culture: Culture and :c5gold: Gold from Monuments.)

--I'm reading this right it looks like you are mostly shifting the yields around a bit. Giving the quarries more faith for easier founding, and then pushing the production bonus back to the stone work (which assumes two quarries for city to stay competitive). You can probably drop the 1 gold on the stone works, and I then I think it looks solid.

God of the Stars and Sky (+2 :c5food: Food from Tundra tiles, +1 :c5science: Science, +2 :c5faith: Faith and +1 :c5gold: Gold from Tundra tiles with improved resources.)

--I think this pantheon is pretty good right now on the right starts.

God of War (+10% :c5production: Production towards Units. Gain :c5faith: Faith from killing military units. When units are promoted, gain :c5faith: Faith based on their current level)

--God of War is quite strong right now, it doesn't need a buff.

Goddess of Fertility (+1 :c5food: Food and :c5faith: Faith from Shrines. +1 :c5faith: Faith :c5food: Food and :c5gold: Gold from Farms)

--The only problem with fertility is that the extra food tends to hit your happiness cap very quickly, so you can't take full advantage of it. That said, the yields are pretty solid, and its easy to get your faith bonuses quickly with this belief.

Goddess of Festivals ( +3 :c5gold: Gold, +2 :c5culture: Culture and +1 :c5faith: Faith for every unique Luxury Resource imported. +2 :c5faith: Faith for every unique Luxury Resource owned.)

--We have gone back and forth between 1 faith per unique resource and 2, with 2 always coming back as OP. Honestly, I think a simple +1 faith on the palace is all that's needed. I have founded with this before, it just requires a perfect start, but give me a small faith boost out of the gate and I think I can make this one work.

Goddess of the Hunt (+1 :c5faith: Faith, :c5food: Food and :c5culture: Culture from Camps. +1 :c5faith: Faith to nearby Deer)

--Hunt is awesome, I don't see the need for a change.
 
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