1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Going for Gold: Pantheons

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,158
    Or Caravansaries. Yes it makes 0 real world sense but I am always looking for a way to make that building useful :)
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,158
    A purity lake with aqueduct is 6 F 1 P 1 Faith. A civil service Farm Triangle on Flood Plains is 7 F....so I think the lake wins out in that case unless the farm gets a cathedral or something to bump it up.

    Now once you get fertilizer I agree the lake doesn't keep up...but I don't really expect pantheons to be carrying any weight by that point in the game.
     
  3. Legen

    Legen King

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2015
    Messages:
    754
    The culture output is solid, but reliant on trade, you can't afford to get in an early war; a single AI declaring war on you can shut down two luxuries and doom your already low chances of founding. Goes without saying that you pretty much can't start wars with Festivals either, limiting what you can do against a forward-settling neighbor. Festivals is particularly bad for early warmongers; if you're going to cut yourself from Festivals' gold + culture and doom your chances of founding by making use of your warring uniques, better pick anything else. No other pantheon is so directly crippled by an early war.

    Maybe because I play Brazil often, but Festivals hasn't struggled more with Tradition than with another social tree for me. Going for an early Monuments -> Stonehenge opener means that you can open Tradition while you're still building Stonehenge, getting that 2 population boost to finish it earlier than Progress or Authority can. And Tradition has +3 :c5faith: faith on Sovereignty, making for another extra city and luxury in the religious race. These two can compensate for not settling as aggressively as the other two social trees.

    Brazilwood camps help roughly after Sovereignty is picked, but that's civ specific.
     
  4. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2019
    Messages:
    194
    Gender:
    Male
    I would strongly opt against festivals when tradition. Not only I tend to stick to three cities three tiles away which rarely see many luxuries connected. You not only loose many luxuries that way, you also loose all the faith from shrines in more cities which wide settling would have, and while playing tradition you should prioritze wonders, not techs to connect many different luxuries. If you have plenty of jungles, and all your luxes are plantation then you can beeline Artemis and be ok, but that's rare. Also tradition needs the culture from festivals the least, while it's great for wide, forward-settling empires.

    You have some point but I don't agree. I would be far more concerned about loosing 4 culture and 6 gold than 2 faith, honestly. And really, those 2 faith wouldn't do anything in comparison with five, six, or seven shrines and probably around ten faith from let's say five owned luxuries and five imported from other AIs (on pangea, or three on continents) for example. I can hardly call that cripple. Festivals already means late religion many times, but I wouldn't mind trading 2 faith for taking a city with a shrine, most probably, or guarding my territory so I can settle more cities, get more shrines, and connect more luxuries. And I rarely get two luxes from one AI early on, its mostly one per AI, so really it is more likely just one faith.
     
  5. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    756
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    Oasis and Lakes could use a late game boost as their Yields fall off around the Renaissance.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  6. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    908
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    I strongly agree that lakes deserve a buff, in late-game at the very least. Personally my preference would be that Lakes get a science boost from Universities the same way that jungle does. IMO this should apply to marshes as well, because they have similar scientific value (biodiversity). If Education is too early for that bonus to unlock then give it to Public Schools instead.

    Purity is OK but I would be happy for it to recieve an indirect buff in this manner :).
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  7. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    A problem I had with purity with a lakeside capital is that natural tile acquisition didn't target lake tiles, costing too much gold to purchase and failing to found in the end. Weird given the high yields of lakes, I wonder if the border growth factors potential worker improvements and not the pantheon in its priorities.
     
    Gidoza, Bromar1, Drakle and 2 others like this.
  8. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    908
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    I am currently wondering if the border growth treats lakes as 'water tiles' akin to coast and ocean. I've been watching tile acquisition for lake tiles and it's rather frustrating. Cities seem to prefer any almost any land tile (at a similar distance) to lake tiles.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,158
    You could also add the +2 gold from the Gardens, the Aqueduct already links oasis and lakes together, so the building that follows (Gardens) makes sense to do so as well.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  10. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    or increase the garden % boost to GP generation for every un-upgraded tile worked by the city? The further represent the inspirational effect on GP. It could encourage to keep marshes and natural forests too. There should be more trade-offs for transforming every bit of nature available :)
    If it's new code, maybe just a culture bonus to all un-upgraded tiles. Same for later boosts from zoos/hotels to lakes mentioned here, apply to all un-upgraded tiles.
     
  11. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    908
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    I agree! I think using %boost to great people might make things more complicated than it needs to be. Renewal does currently reward not chopping forests and jungles, although it's true the tiles still end up being lumber mills/logging camps.
    It's a cool idea - like what the UA the Maori have in Civ 6 does. Purity mainly rewards settling near fresh water though, which seems like a useful option to have available. Giving yields on unimproved tiles seems distinct enough to be it's own pantheon :).
    Also a cool idea, but this aspect would probably fit better as an enhancer, reformation, or even a founder or follower belief. Pantheons are designed to either help you found or give you some other boost during the early game. That way if you don't manage to found (and get converted to someone else's religion), you haven't wasted your pantheon choice.
     
  12. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Made a thread about that last year :) I lack the modding skills though

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...voring-unimproved-tiles.646014/#post-15490515
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  13. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    908
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    Btw I just tried a game with Purity. Things I noticed:

    1) It requires either tile purchases or extra territory and is therefore easiest to found with as America, Russia or the Shoshone. The Netherlands would require more investment, but might find it most worthwhile because they can build also Polders on top of marshes and next to lakes and rivers.
    2) Cities near lakes or marshes have a ton of food! You want to be working as many of these tiles as you can because they are your only source of faith, and with Purity they each produce 4:c5food: 1:c5production: 1:c5faith:. My capital grew really quickly, even having built 3 settlers from it. My second city also grew rapidly, having produced my 4th settler.
    3) That's about all it does. Playing Byzantium, it felt a little sub-par compared to other pantheons I could have chosen. Although I started near lots of lakes and marshes (11 total), there were few outside that area.

    Spoiler :
    20200402194833_1.jpg

    For reference this game was on Epic speed and I got about 400 faith for free from 2 faith ruins and meeting 3 religious city-states. I founded earlier than usual, but mainly due to those bonuses.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,158
    Finally tried out the new Commerce pantheon, I can say I was not impressed by its faith output.

    I went with a monument -> shrine, picked up commerce. I had 5 extra cities in rapid order, and had a road waiting for every one of them, so they got instant bonuses when I settled. Also when shrine first in every city. With all of that, I was only 1 turn away from losing a religion on Emperor. I thought I would be a shoe in with how good I was with my city connections, but was very surprised at the slow faith generation.
     
  15. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,072
    It seems to be bugged- you don't get faith from trade routes.
     
  16. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    299
    Gender:
    Male
    I really disliked the latest change to god of stars and sky, the tundra pantheon .... It made it very similar to spirit of the desert but worse in every way ... The loss of food which is funnily enough still incorporated in goddess of the hunt, the nature of resources spawning on tundra is way worse than those spawning on desert is really strange for me.
    Also the mandatory open sky needs a nerf, probably less gold.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,158
    What are people's thoughts on Sun God right now?

    @CrazyG I know you have expressed concerns about it. To me, its a tradition only pantheon from a founding perspective, its probably one of the weaker founders overall because you can't build both shrines and granaries at the same time (compared to rushing shrines + workers building improvements for other pantheons which allows more faith generation in parallel). So overall while you may have good faith output at the end you can't get there quickly enough without the tradition boost (or equivalent faith boost).

    That makes it a very niche pantheon for founding, you have to have both great wheat starts AND play tradition.

    On the other hand, Sun gives a wonderful boost even without founding. Solid gold, and a tremendous food boost. You can literally manage the food needs of an entire city off 1 wheat farm for a long time, and it gives you the ability to rush granaries as a change in strategy. Do you think the pantheon is strong enough as a non-founder?
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  18. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    908
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    Sun seems themed around farming, and mechanically makes building granaries first useful which is cool. And wheat can be an underappreciated resource so I like that there is pantheon that makes wheat-rich starts stronger. I guess it also kind of works with starts with lots of cows, bison, bananas, or deer because they get a minor buff from the granary. And I would guess synergises well with the Mongols, because of their UB?
    As perhaps you are alluding to, I think you can probably make non-tradition starts work with certain civs (India, Byzantium, Maya, Ethiopia, Celts, Spain). Might actually be best suited to the Mongols, because the Ger grants faith (+1), but I don't remember seeing them take it very often. They manange to found in my games though.
     
  19. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    908
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    Rolling starts to see what comes up, I came across what is probably the best start for Goddess of Purity that I've seen :).

    24 lake/marsh tiles in my area, going north and along the coast. I founded well early compared to normal (4th rather than 6th or 7th) and as I experienced before cities near lakes were growing like crazy! Not much other than that (I'll have to try a river-heavy start some time to see how much happiness I can get), but honestly it was well enough for me to consider it worthwhile. Got luck in terms of not being near many other founders and having relatively little competition for territory. This game compares favourably to others that I've played on the same settings, even in the context of starting near a natural wonder. Purity gave me a good start and yields that I will probably benefit from for the rest of the game.

    Spoiler :
    20200407023009_1.jpg

    For context, I took Diligence as my follower when enhancing, and Springtime as my bonus belief. Defender of Faith was my Reformation. At the time of this picture I have agreed to declare a joint war with Russia on The Songhai in 4 or so turns. I'm still in favour of buffing Purity - I don't think I've ever seen this many lakes close together before. I had fun though!
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  20. Drakle

    Drakle Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    A buff to Purity would just be changing the border spread calculations. Lake tiles seem to be the last choose for spreading, with the border spread still targeting empty plain/grassland, over lake tiles. Even without Purity, the base lake tiles are still better yields than empty land tiles. Having to buy Lake tiles is a real disadvantage, and makes it far weaker than it should be on its face.

    Marshes are a bit of an odd part of the pantheon kit. I find the placement of them a bit spotty, and in areas that don't really overlap with lakes.

    Honestly, I would remove the marshes from the kit altogether, and buff the city bonus. Like 1 Happiness, 1 Culture and 1 Faith from cities on Rivers or Lakes. Faith that isn't dependent on a citizen working a tile.
     
    JamesNinelives and pineappledan like this.

Share This Page