Going for Gold: Pantheons
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JamesNinelives
Emperor
I've never really been in this situation myself, but it is how I feel based on experiences other people have shared
. I do also think that the bonuses on natural wonders from Nature could be increased without really changing much though about the core nature of the pantheon though (which is still more about mountains).I agree that nature is fine. I won't pick nature if I just have a natural wonder nearby but if I have mountains + a natural wonder (or 2), nature is the strongest faith pantheon possible for a human player. Nature with 2 natural wonders and mountains is very nice. Obviously situational, but it has its time and place to shine.
SuperNoobCamper
King
On god of open sky *again* since the argument about it being OP is somewhat legit i'd like to elaborate a couple of points on why i think it's a very good pantheon but i don't think it deserves a nerf.
- Terrain/resource dependant improvement and inherently pantheons are usually tied to luxuries which spawn in a fixed number for each player meaning if you started a game with a standard size map and got silver as your primary luxury, you are guaranteed 8 silver tiles spawning in that map most probably 7 or even 8 of them in your vicinty which is not the case for Open Sky since none of the 3 resources improved by pastures are luxuries which means you can get any number of resource tiles which makes this particular pantheon more map dependent than pretty much all the other pantheons.
- The yields of god of open sky are undeniably fantastic but it's also reliant on heavy micro management and has inherent issue with sheep always spawning on hills making the 2 tiles bonus less consistent.
- God of Open Sky shines most in classical and early medieval and this is why i think this pantheon may be overperfoming in some cases because of the culture aspect of it; it's one of the few pantheons that scale well into the early part of mid game while being a strong early game pantheon if the map roll lords smiled upon you.
- Despite the number of tiles being not fixed and the micromanaging aspect, i think 3 gold per pasture is too much if you happen to get a map with a lot pastures; culture and faith might be more impactful on the long run but 3 extra gold per pasture in the early game is a huge advantage comparable to a luxury monopoly which i think if god of open sky is to be nerfed this is where it should receive the nerf ... 2 gold per pasture is okayish or even go with the two tile theme here as well and add 3 gold per 2 plains or grassland after removing gold all together from pastures.... It would still make a potent pantheon that scales into mid game but makes the early game yields less explosive.
JamesNinelives
Emperor
Simply nerfing 1
3
on pastures to 12 seems like a good way to moderate it's strength a little while still keeping it as a strong choice .[My thoughts: I don't think the concerns about Open Sky being too strong are communitas specific - I play Continents plus for example, and while I haven't seen the AI doing well with it I understand that it can feel exploitable as a player. I actually like it being strong though, because it rewards an unusual strategy (preference grassland and plains over hills or lakes, bonus/strategic resources give faith instead of luxuries, work the land instead of specialists). Also, the other resource improvement pantheons are all pretty decent (Sea, Hunt, Earth, Craftsmen). Oh! I just realised that Sea, Earth, and Sky are like a holy trinity!
]Open Sky:
What I've noted with it, at first I thought, ooh I want flatlands for open sky, but then I realised if I just have enough pastures it cover the need in hilly terrain as well.
On top of that, oh pastures ... well no need for markets.
It covers a bit too much and it just continues to scale with wide, just remove all forests and jungles.
Tutelary:
Someone considered this one a bit too strong but while its sort of nice it doesnt scale, ie the bonuses are the same no matter what (or zero at size 1-2).
I don't think this is too strong.
What I've noted with it, at first I thought, ooh I want flatlands for open sky, but then I realised if I just have enough pastures it cover the need in hilly terrain as well.
On top of that, oh pastures ... well no need for markets.
It covers a bit too much and it just continues to scale with wide, just remove all forests and jungles.
Tutelary:
Someone considered this one a bit too strong but while its sort of nice it doesnt scale, ie the bonuses are the same no matter what (or zero at size 1-2).
I don't think this is too strong.
I would even nerf it down to 1 faith 1 gold on pastures.Simply nerfing 1
[My thoughts: I don't think the concerns about Open Sky being too strong are communitas specific - I play Continents plus for example, and while I haven't seen the AI doing well with it I understand that it can feel exploitable as a player. I actually like it being strong though, because it rewards an unusual strategy (preference grassland and plains over hills or lakes, bonus/strategic resources give faith instead of luxuries, work the land instead of specialists). Also, the other resource improvement pantheons are all pretty decent (Sea, Hunt, Earth, Craftsmen). Oh! I just realised that Sea, Earth, and Sky are like a holy trinity!
Current Pantheon list. What is everybody's thoughts of the current state of balance with Pantheons? I haven't tried a lot, so I can't comment on a lot of these.
Thoughts on the state of the pantheon as a whole?
I've already made my thoughts clear on Goddess of nature and also talked a bit about Purity earlier in the thread.
First though, which isn't directly related to the Pantheons themselves, but an issue with Progress and early game settling. Some pantheon are clearly Progress orientated and require building a fair number of cities to get faith production going. But even with doing a religion rush strategy, that is building shrines/pantheon boosted buildings first I find that Progress is just not giving the faith to get a religion consistently, on 6. I've raised this issue, here, on Progress having a weak early game setting game which limits picking Progress orientated Pantheons, that could be powerful later but just take too long to get online without major other sources of faith.
Other thoughts
Why does God of War have 10% increase in city ranged combat strength instead of Goddess of protection? God of war already seems solid with just the faith production and production boost. Maybe it would make Goddess of Protection too strong defensively, so maybe that is it. Just seems odd. It could be dumped from God of war, and I don't think it would make anybody not take it.
Anyway, that is most of my current thoughts.
Spoiler Pantheons :
Thoughts on the state of the pantheon as a whole?
I've already made my thoughts clear on Goddess of nature and also talked a bit about Purity earlier in the thread.
First though, which isn't directly related to the Pantheons themselves, but an issue with Progress and early game settling. Some pantheon are clearly Progress orientated and require building a fair number of cities to get faith production going. But even with doing a religion rush strategy, that is building shrines/pantheon boosted buildings first I find that Progress is just not giving the faith to get a religion consistently, on 6. I've raised this issue, here, on Progress having a weak early game setting game which limits picking Progress orientated Pantheons, that could be powerful later but just take too long to get online without major other sources of faith.
Spoiler Goddess of Wisdom reflection :
Spoiler Goddess of the Home reflection :
Other thoughts
Why does God of War have 10% increase in city ranged combat strength instead of Goddess of protection? God of war already seems solid with just the faith production and production boost. Maybe it would make Goddess of Protection too strong defensively, so maybe that is it. Just seems odd. It could be dumped from God of war, and I don't think it would make anybody not take it.
Spoiler Adding Great Specialist points to pantheons? :
Anyway, that is most of my current thoughts.
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Necamijat
Warlord
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I think Goddess of Festivals is also really unlikely to found with, as it's not very Faith-heavy, since you're unlikely to get more than 5 luxuries early (especially since the map heavily favours a player having access to about one monopoly + 2/3 luxes now), and trading can take a while considering the AI is notoriously bad at upgrading and trading luxuries early.
If you're going really wide to get luxuries, Ancestor Worship probably gets better Faith production since Councils are relatively early buildings, and then you just need to get to (relatively quick) 3rd pop.
Even on Indonesia, with their 3 bonus luxuries, I just feel it is easier to go with Plantation pantheon.
If you're going really wide to get luxuries, Ancestor Worship probably gets better Faith production since Councils are relatively early buildings, and then you just need to get to (relatively quick) 3rd pop.
Even on Indonesia, with their 3 bonus luxuries, I just feel it is easier to go with Plantation pantheon.
Which ones do you think fall into that category?
I'm in the camp that says, any founding is a good one. No one is going to beat religious civs (especially Tradition) in terms of founding speed. You managed to found, so sounds like the pantheon is working as intended. It is very common that religious foundings are just a few turns apart.
The fact that Spain is religiously dominating you....well that's Spain, its what they do. Just like if I'm next to a super aggressive civ I expect to get DOWed, if I'm next to a religiously aggressive civ I have to expect that my religion is going to be under pressure, and try to take religious beliefs that help me there.
Commerce with city connections, particularly Carthage (and presumably Songhai and Iroquis but I haven't used them). Barring Venice since trade routes and Great merchants for them trump city connections and they would go Tradition or maybe Authority
Goddess of the Home should be Progress related since you won't found off it with a couple of cities, and you get faith and food from buildings. But it is too weak, which is why I raised it as an issue.
Goddess of Wisdom if you have an early UB with a specialist or if you rush markets.
Resource-based faith pantheons to an extent with faster, cheaper and a free worker. But the downside of those at the moment is it is harder to get cities out or secure faith boosted buildings in secondary cities versus Authority.
Removing 2 civs from the game isn't exactly a normal situation. 8 civs left for 5 founding slots. I founded in terms of turns well after the point when the last founding would have happened in most games.
JamesNinelives
Emperor
I'm able to found somewhat consistently on 6 with Progress myself. I don't always found, but that seems appropriate. It feels challenging without being overwhelming. Yes, there are pantheons that are difficult to found with unless you play a civ with either a strong early-game or a religious bonus. I think that's as intended though? There are many civs which fall into one of those categories, so having pantheons that suit them better is OK. Some pantheons are also designed to just provide a strong early bonus for civs that don't found.
I don't mind looking at individual pantheons that might be underperforming. Home seems fine to me, certainly it's one of the AI's favourite pantheons and they manage to found. Festivals is a great choice as Indonesia, especially considering that you don't always get your first choice of pantheon. IMO Festivals is best with Tradition rather than Progress though. As mentioned, a lot of your neaby luxuries will be the same as the one you started near.
The only pantheon that I think needs a nerf at the moment is Open Sky, as has been discussed.
Commenting on the pantheons I have recent experience with:
Springtime is my most reliable founder. It's not the fastest, but it's a nice balance of faith and other yields over time. Works best with flatland plantations, but can work for jungle as well (bananas help).
Protection is more difficult to found with, because it gives faith primarily through tech-dependant buildings. It gives decent faith and culture over time though, and isn't dependant on particular terrain/resources. I recommend this for Japan, Babylon, and the Zulu.
Renewal is also challenging to found with because it requires expansion, growth and lots of either forest or jungle to work. That said, the non-faith yields - science and culture are excellent. Great for the Maya, the Aztecs, t̶h̶e̶ ̶C̶e̶l̶t̶s̶ Siam, and the Iroquois.
Purity can actually be quite strong faith-wise, if you start near enough lakes or marshes. It also requires a lot of border growth or tile purchases, but it's easier with marshes than with lakes. In the past I've found this pantheon didn't pay off well, but with the buffs to marshes and lakes recently I think it's actually quite OK. Easiest as The Shoshone, but also good for America and Russia.
Nature varies wildly between useless and very strong. Depends largely on how many mountains you start near, particularly around your capital. I've had one game where I have founded well before any other pantheon would, but it required careful settling and a nearby faith-generating natural wonder. So I think it needs a buff. It feels like it underperforms more often than it over-performs. If you have mountains and a natural wonder it's exceptional but that really doesn't happen very often.
In the game I'm playing at the moment: Progress Arabia founded with Sun, Tradition Babylon founded with Protection, The Authority Inca founded with Expanse, Tradition Venice founded with Commerce, Tradition Germany founded with Home, and Progress Byzantium founded with Purity (although that really mean anything). I founded as The Progress Iroquois - just barely - with Springtime.
Edit: played a bunch more games; the AI is definitely able to found with Home. Also notable was The Songhai fouding second with Commerce - those free city connections make it very powerful for them and Carthage. I played a game where Indonesia founded first using Festivals. I've also seen a surprising number of AIs found with Tutelary Gods. One was tradition Carthage, another was Authority Greece (who also built Stonehenge). I think that +3 hammers in the capital must really pay off, helping to produce wonders and settlers. I suspect it could afford a slight nerf and still be worthwhile.
I don't mind looking at individual pantheons that might be underperforming. Home seems fine to me, certainly it's one of the AI's favourite pantheons and they manage to found. Festivals is a great choice as Indonesia, especially considering that you don't always get your first choice of pantheon. IMO Festivals is best with Tradition rather than Progress though. As mentioned, a lot of your neaby luxuries will be the same as the one you started near.
The only pantheon that I think needs a nerf at the moment is Open Sky, as has been discussed.
Commenting on the pantheons I have recent experience with:
Springtime is my most reliable founder. It's not the fastest, but it's a nice balance of faith and other yields over time. Works best with flatland plantations, but can work for jungle as well (bananas help).
Protection is more difficult to found with, because it gives faith primarily through tech-dependant buildings. It gives decent faith and culture over time though, and isn't dependant on particular terrain/resources. I recommend this for Japan, Babylon, and the Zulu.
Renewal is also challenging to found with because it requires expansion, growth and lots of either forest or jungle to work. That said, the non-faith yields - science and culture are excellent. Great for the Maya, the Aztecs, t̶h̶e̶ ̶C̶e̶l̶t̶s̶ Siam, and the Iroquois.
Purity can actually be quite strong faith-wise, if you start near enough lakes or marshes. It also requires a lot of border growth or tile purchases, but it's easier with marshes than with lakes. In the past I've found this pantheon didn't pay off well, but with the buffs to marshes and lakes recently I think it's actually quite OK. Easiest as The Shoshone, but also good for America and Russia.
Nature varies wildly between useless and very strong. Depends largely on how many mountains you start near, particularly around your capital. I've had one game where I have founded well before any other pantheon would, but it required careful settling and a nearby faith-generating natural wonder. So I think it needs a buff. It feels like it underperforms more often than it over-performs. If you have mountains and a natural wonder it's exceptional but that really doesn't happen very often.
In the game I'm playing at the moment: Progress Arabia founded with Sun, Tradition Babylon founded with Protection, The Authority Inca founded with Expanse, Tradition Venice founded with Commerce, Tradition Germany founded with Home, and Progress Byzantium founded with Purity (although that really mean anything). I founded as The Progress Iroquois - just barely - with Springtime.
Edit: played a bunch more games; the AI is definitely able to found with Home. Also notable was The Songhai fouding second with Commerce - those free city connections make it very powerful for them and Carthage. I played a game where Indonesia founded first using Festivals. I've also seen a surprising number of AIs found with Tutelary Gods. One was tradition Carthage, another was Authority Greece (who also built Stonehenge). I think that +3 hammers in the capital must really pay off, helping to produce wonders and settlers. I suspect it could afford a slight nerf and still be worthwhile.
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Did you just match the Celts with a non-Celtic pantheon?
Replace that with Siam imo.
JamesNinelives
Emperor
Did you just match the Celts with a non-Celtic pantheon?
Replace that with Siam imo.
Oops! You're right XD.
Necamijat
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2014
- Messages
- 123
Also, is no one talking about the God of All Creation? Is it just so you can pick a pantheon when you don't really plan on getting religion at all? Its yields aren't bad per se, but surely a pantheon should try to strive towards founding, no? It and God-King (paradoxically) seem very low on faith generation. The latter seems more due to the changed Settlers, as new cities are now citizen neutral when founded (-1 in a city from settler, +1 in new city), thus slowing its progress.
Should God of All Creation just remain as a not-doing-religion Pantheon?
Should God of All Creation just remain as a not-doing-religion Pantheon?
I think God of All Creation is intended to be the non-founding pantheon. Its really strong as a pantheon when a civ still has one city, particularly for authority, which is planning to conquer a holy city. It's worth a total of 17 yields, once everyone has founded a pantheon.
JamesNinelives
Emperor
God of All Creation seems OK. God-king seems a bit weak to me.
I rarely see the AI pick either of them. With a number of strong low-faith pantheons available those two can seem a bit lacklustre. I wouldn't mind both getting a buff tbh.
Edit: I did see Austria take God of All Creation in a recent game, and it seemed a decent choice as a late pantheon (and likely non-founder).
I rarely see the AI pick either of them. With a number of strong low-faith pantheons available those two can seem a bit lacklustre. I wouldn't mind both getting a buff tbh.
Edit: I did see Austria take God of All Creation in a recent game, and it seemed a decent choice as a late pantheon (and likely non-founder).
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JamesNinelives
Emperor
I've been playing a lot of games recently to see if I can found with certain pantheons, and I'm starting to feel that low-faith pantheons shouldn't also be situational pantheons. Otherwise they simply aren't relevant most of the time, which seems like a waste.
For example I've been trying to make Goddess of Renewal work for The Iroquois. It's possible. Certainly it's a good choice in terms of the yields it offers - the science and culture are excellent! It's noticeably difficult to found with though, even with lots of forest or jungle. And if Renewal isn't a strong choice for founding as The Iroqouis (with a forest or jungle start) then I can't help feeling a bit sad. I could probably still win games with it as a non-founder, but having a religion is just more fun. I guess I'll go for Springtime or Hunt in forest/jungle instead, unless I'm playing a religious civ.
For example I've been trying to make Goddess of Renewal work for The Iroquois. It's possible. Certainly it's a good choice in terms of the yields it offers - the science and culture are excellent! It's noticeably difficult to found with though, even with lots of forest or jungle. And if Renewal isn't a strong choice for founding as The Iroqouis (with a forest or jungle start) then I can't help feeling a bit sad. I could probably still win games with it as a non-founder, but having a religion is just more fun. I guess I'll go for Springtime or Hunt in forest/jungle instead, unless I'm playing a religious civ.
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