Going for Gold: Pantheons

[Stalker0]

...I'm starting to feel that low-faith pantheons shouldn't also be situational pantheons. Otherwise they simply aren't relevant most of the time, which seems like a waste.

So in general I don't mind the situationless, to a point. There are so many pantheons, that I don't mind that there is a core group that are my "defaults", and then there are the special pantheons that need the stars to align....but its really cool when they do.

That said, I personally struggle with Renewal myself....so I do wonder if that pantheon needs some love.

 

[JamesNinelives]

So in general I don't mind the situationless, to a point. There are so many pantheons, that I don't mind that there is a core group that are my "defaults", and then there are the special pantheons that need the stars to align....but its really cool when they do.

That said, I personally struggle with Renewal myself....so I do wonder if that pantheon needs some love.

It just got a buff (after getting a nerf) so I wanted to try it out. It's bizarre really because it's so strong in areas other than faith, if you have lots of forest/jungle. It might be ideal for say The Maya. But there are so many low-faith pantheons with good yields to choose from, in addition to those that give strong faith; the Maya don't really need more options.

I enjoyed Renewal a lot playing Byzantium, it wasn't until I tried founding with it as anyone else that I realised what it was really like. IMO changing the building yields on the Market to include some faith (even if it's only 1) would be an easy fix.

Edit: @Stalker0, what are you 'default' pantheons?

Edit 2: played with some pantheons I don't usually take; I found Wisdom is quite fair for founding if you go shrine -> market in your secondary cities. It's not the stronger pantheon available but it's not short on faith generation. I tried Earth Mother and it doesn't seem as strong as I had thought, which is sad. I only played one game with it though, so I'm willing to give it another try. I did manage to found with both Stars and Sky and Goddess of The Hunt. They're decent - not exceptional, but not bad either.

Edit 3: Here's some screenshots from games I played with different pantheons .

Spoiler Nature :

This was such a nice mountainous start that I had to go with Nature and I wasn't dissapointed. I founded well early and got some nice yields from it too. Obviously this start wouldn't have been as strong without Uluru nearby so it's a bit of a rarity. I'm keen to try Nature again though if I get another good mountainous start.

Spoiler Renewal 1 :

Technically I did found in this game but it was so late I consider my choice of pantheon here to be very poor. Springtime or Wisdom would both have been better.

Spoiler Renewal 2 :

With a more heavily forested start, Renewal performed much better here. It was a struggle to found but the yields it gave were very good.

Spoiler Wisdom :

Felt strange working specialists in small cities, but I had no trouble founding with Wisdom. Springtime would probably have been stronger, but founded later. Renewal might have been possible but risky.

Spoiler Stars and Sky :

This was pretty fun actually. Getting faith from unimproved resources is very enjoyable. Although I did still have to push to work enough to found with. Tundra starts often are a mix of tundra and non-tundra, unfortunately for Stars and Sky. I do like this pantheon though.

Spoiler Hunt :

Hunt is probably my new favourite after Springtime and Renewal. Easier to found than Renewal, I think Hunt is great for forest camp starts . It actually reminds me of Purity with lakes and marshes, because it provides a lot of food!

 

[azum4roll]

I started a new observer game on the latest version. Indonesia, Assyria, the Huns, Portugal, Arabia, Venice, France and the Shoshones.

Arabia founded first, naturally, followed by Indonesia with Ancestor Worship (despite having lots of plantations).

Surprisingly Venice founded with Goddess of the Home, but that could be explained by having built Stonehenge (and then a whole bunch of wonders afterwards).

The Huns somehow founded with Open Sky with zero benefits to his capital (trees everywhere) and 3 pastures total in his kingdom.

Portugal founded with something I forgot.

 

[Drakle]

Surprisingly Venice founded with Goddess of the Home, but that could be explained by having built Stonehenge (and then a whole bunch of wonders afterwards).

It seems like Venice should really be hardcoded to take Commerce if available. Or really up it weighting, so they only pick something else if they get a seriously crazy good start for something else.

God of commerce - 2 faith and gold in cities with a city connection and per active trade route to and from the city. Capital/Holy City gains 2 faith and gold after second city is founded, and 2 great merchant points,

Trade routes, gold, and great merchant points.

followed by Indonesia with Ancestor Worship (despite having lots of plantations).

Indonesia doesn't really have a hard coding pantheon, but

Goddess of festivals - 3 gold, 1 culture and 1 faith for every unique luxury resource owned or imported, and 1 faith in the capital

and of course

Goddess of springtime - 1 gold, food and faith from plantations. 1 science and 2 faith from herbalists

Should have higher weights. They just seem to take whatever, despite having guaranteed plantations and a lot more available luxury resources.

Though Festivals seems like it could maybe knock a gold off, and boost the faith. Seems a bit hard to found with, particularly since early game the AI is lax about connecting luxury resources which makes it hard to trade for.

 

[JamesNinelives]

It seems like Venice should really be hardcoded to take Commerce if available.

I saw them found with Commerce in one of my games recently so they do take it sometimes. It does seem perfect for them though, unless there's something else that's more likely to found.

They just seem to take whatever, despite having guaranteed plantations and a lot more available luxury resources.

I saw Indonesia found with Festivals in the game I played just now. I saw them found with Festivals a few games ago as well. I've seen them take Springtime sometimes, perhaps not as often as they should. I wonder if the bonuses the AI gets favour some pantheons more than others? They seem to like Expanse and Home a lot.

Seems a bit hard to found with, particularly since early game the AI is lax about connecting luxury resources which makes it hard to trade for.

I would have thought so too, but the AI doesn't seem to have trouble founding with it in my games. I suppose it's stronger on maps with more civs? I play with 12 total, although you tend to only meet about 5-7 before religions are founded.

In the game I just played Mongolia founded first with Ancestor Worship, then Greece with Goddess of the Home, Indonesia with Goddess of Festivals, the Celts with Bran, Carthage with Open Sky (their capital did have a bunch of pastures), Spain with God of the Sun, and finally the Zulus with Tutelary Gods and a Wine monopoly.

I was trying to found with Renewal again (had a good jungle start) but got beaten by 1 turn unfortunately. I don't know who built Stonehenge, as I haven't met them yet. Possibly Spain, but not any of the other founders. Protection, Commerce, Expanse (France) and Craftsmen (Babylon) were also non-founding pantheons in this game.

Edit: I just founded remarkably early with Goddess of Purity. Well before any of the others I've been testing, except perhaps that one game with a ton of mountains and a faith-generating natural wonder. Purity isn't useful in most circumstances, but I founded mostly on the strength of two cities in this game!

Spoiler :

 

[tothePAIN]

Wisdom is in a good place. I managed to found on turn 77 with Wisdom as a Progress Zulu on Deity (with a Wine Monopoly.) You have to go Shrine - Market.

 

[Cokolwiek]

Wisdom is in a good place. I managed to found on turn 77 with Wisdom as a Progress Zulu on Deity (with a Wine Monopoly.) You have to go Shrine - Market.

I really cannot agree. While early market, sometimes even straight after shrine, is a viable option, it is so only because of jungles and forests pantheon that gives it +2 science and food to it. And it's still not an option without authority and it's hammers or really good production tiles like lapis lazuli on the hill. Markets without science and food are terrible development decision for a second building. Maybe with some niche factions or strategies, not in normal game. You should have more than enough gold from luxuries selling. Markets are only needed after the city is already standing on its feet production, science, and population wise and its generating much poverty.
I think wine monopoly distorted your view. With faith resource monopoly pantheon needs only a half of a punch it usually needs to have.
Furthermore, what kind of great person points are those of a merchant? Wasted? Well, yes. Especially locking a specialist in low population cities. It's just bad.

 

[tothePAIN]

I really cannot agree. While early market, sometimes even straight after shrine, is a viable option, it is so only because of jungles and forests pantheon that gives it +2 science and food to it. And it's still not an option without authority and it's hammers or really good production tiles like lapis lazuli on the hill. Markets without science and food are terrible development decision for a second building. Maybe with some niche factions or strategies, not in normal game. You should have more than enough gold from luxuries selling. Markets are only needed after the city is already standing on its feet production, science, and population wise and its generating much poverty.
I think wine monopoly distorted your view. With faith resource monopoly pantheon needs only a half of a punch it usually needs to have.
Furthermore, what kind of great person points are those of a merchant? Wasted? Well, yes. Especially locking a specialist in low population cities. It's just bad.

Some pantheons are going to be inconsistent founders. Wisdom is strong enough under certain circumstances. It's good with Babylon.

I almost never try to found as authority, especially after the tribute changes, you're welcome to explain how you do so.

Commerce is in a worse place than Wisdom, for instance.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Honestly I find Wisdom pretty OK in terms of faith generation - it's easier to found with than many of the other pantheons I've been using. And I've been testing a lot, I haven't posted everything but check my screenshots above.

And yes, I often go Shrine straight into Market. Is it an ideal choice? Well, obviously in most cases no. But then Shrine-Barracks-Walls isn't ideal either in most cases either but it can still work for Goddess of Protection. I've done it as the Shoshone because Military Theory unlocks their UI, but it's best with Japan. Similarly Herbalists are a terrible building for say a desert or flat grass/plains start but Springtime is still quite viable in many situations.

You know who Shrine-Market is exceptional for? Try Arabia. It's also great for Spices or Sugar starts because the market buffs those resource tiles. Wisdom also works better for Tradition obviously because you get lots of other specialists to work in your capital. And as tothePAIN mentions, Walls of Babylon are a nice alternative to rushing Markets.

Point is that a 'normal game' varies a lot, and most pantheons are situational to some degree.

Personally I think Commerce seems OK mainly because I see the AI founding with it. Granted it's situational as well, but I think that's OK. It's very nice for The Iroquois, Carthage, and the Songhai because of the easy city connections. Apparantly it's ideal for Venice, for multiple reasons? Maybe good for Morroco or Portugal too (because of the benefits to and from trade routes), although I haven't seen those in practise yet.

 

[Cokolwiek]

I almost never try to found as authority, especially after the tribute changes, you're welcome to explain how you do so.

Side note: founding with authority or anything wide is much easier than with tradition.
Generally I think pantheons are in a little pathological state right now. They feel very vanilla like in design, completely different than few months ago. Of course, we needed to do something about the old wisdom or commerce because they were cancerous random faiths generators. But I hate the design of the new ones.
First of all, on deity and I think on immortal also (though I haven't played it myself), all pantheons apart from the human are gone on turn 15, and 16, for all civs, religious or not. Human is always the last to get it. This locks out most of the options. What is the point of Stonehenge if it gives you the last pantheon anyway? And it's so risky already. Tutelary gods? Expanse? Ancestor? Just forget it.
This leads to the second thing, most pantheons are just poor. They are so low in faith it's really not enough to get
The third thing is, if you are forced to make brutally suboptimal decisions in order to found a religion on deity, you just need to stop trying, because shrine into market, or walls and barracks will just not work because you need to focus on normal development, expansion, food, production, units and so on. So most of the time on deity, without several cards in your hand (natural wonder, good pantheon left, stonehenge built, isolation and safe position, faith monopoly, faith civ, lack of faith AIs) you have no chance of founding and investing into religion will cripple you so much it's not worth it.
Fourth thing, it would be much better to live with the current pantheons if the AI was doing a good job with selecting beliefs. The religions it creates are awful. Most of them aren't even useful to them. Very rare use of buildings (and no cathedrals in my games), no yields like scholarship or tithe, or diligence, even no council of elders, or apostolic tradition. AI loves spreading bonuses, asceticism, and diplomatic bonuses.
It's obvious the AI is now getting faith ABC bonuses on settling, which was not the case before. I am usually in favor of increasing them, and still see deity too easy in different aspects I wrote about in different topics, but I am not a fan of faith bonuses. You cannot plan on anything when some authority AI which has terrible pantheon, no bonuses to faith, no natural wonders, no monopoly, have four cities, and shouldn't be interested in religion can beat you by thirty or forty turns to be the last founder.
Furthermore, because pantheons are so low faith right now and the faith is locked behind improvements or population, in combination with food bonus on settling and quicker workers and techs, the AI is able to start harvesting faith much more rapidly than a human player in contrast to previous versions.

 

[CrazyG]

First of all, on deity and I think on immortal also (though I haven't played it myself), all pantheons apart from the human are gone on turn 15, and 16, for all civs, religious or not.

Is this standard speed?

I think if AI selected their pantheon a little bit later, the other problems would largely resolve themselves. I agree that having all AI choose their pantheon before a human possibly can isn't fun (though I'm always thrilled to see a reason to play India).

 

[ElliotS]

I think if AI selected their pantheon a little bit later, the other problems would largely resolve themselves. I agree that having all AI choose their pantheon before a human possibly can isn't fun (though I'm always thrilled to see a reason to play India).

I've felt that way for a while. The AI seems to have an unfair advantage in pantheons. I think that part of the solution is that the shrine should be except from the AI's building discounts, and unable to benefit from the free production from settling a city.

 

[Stalker0]

I think that part of the solution is that the shrine should be except from the AI's building discounts, and unable to benefit from the free production from settling a city.

Agreed. The mod purposefully does not give the AI any bonus faith, so it makes sense to remove the "pseudo bonus faith" it gets due to these discounts.

 

[Cokolwiek]

Is this standard speed?

I think that was standard. Epic is more like turn twenty-two. I may be off for one or two turns.

I agree that faith bonuses removal should resolve the situation. However the is poor AI religion would persists I guess. Can you guys confirm that AI tends to underperform when selecting beliefs? Maybe I just had bad luck in my agmes.

Agreed. The mod purposefully does not give the AI any bonus faith, so it makes sense to remove the "pseudo bonus faith" it gets due to these discounts.

Is it still the case? I know it was some months ago. But when I returned to playing, it did strike me how quick and uniformly AI grabs the pantheons. They are doing it on the same two turns, usual three pantheons taken, followed by four on the next turn, or some similar arrangement. And fifty faith from shrines only on turn fifteen with one city? I am not convinced. It just doesn't add up. With one shrine, completed on turn four, it should have taken at least to turn thirty. Religion timing and quickness is also highly suspicious. I think clarification from the devs is needed.

 

[tothePAIN]

Side note: founding with authority or anything wide is much easier than with tradition.

So... I'd like this to be true. But I play deity solely, which it sounds like you do as well. When I play deity, I feel like I can found with tradition maybe, and other policies, most likely not. I play authority as God of All Creation and focus on warfare and conquering an enemy Holy City.

Can you please spell out how you found with authority easier than tradition? The challenge on the current patches is that as Authority, you don't want to found a city until after your 3rd policy to avoid losing the culture / science.

Regarding founding, I concur that pantheon choices are warped by the ABC bonuses. On deity, when I go for a religion, I always go shrine first and every single AI always beats me to a pantheon first. The only time I got God of the Expanse was when I found an ancient ruins for the free Wheel technology and started building Stonehenge on turn 2.

The AI founds at a rate that I can't match, unless its Goddess of Nature maybe?

 

[Cokolwiek]

But I play deity solely, which it sounds like you do as well.

Correct.

I play authority as God of All Creation and focus on warfare and conquering an enemy Holy City.

I do that only if I feel I manage to grab the holy city before enhancing, so I can at least give it one decent follower belief (not some goddamn veneration or asceticism, or pagodas which AI loves).

Can you please spell out how you found with authority easier than tradition? The challenge on the current patches is that as Authority, you don't want to found a city until after your 3rd policy to avoid losing the culture / science.

Of course I don't found consistently with authority, and it's mostly terrain and natural wonders dependent. But here's when we differ: I usually rush wheel for Stonehenge, and then pottery and expand ferociously. It is only my fourth city that is from imperium policy. The AI is just too quick at expanding (and it's good), I wouldn't have any room left had I wait for the free settler. So I got more of terrain faith and quicker shrines. And I like to forward settle my future victims. Another reason might be I tend to do peaceful authority early and delay warring a little, just focusing on buying workers and settling six or seven cities.
I wasn't able to found with tradition or progress this last on April patch. Progress is simply worse at early expansion than authority.

The only time I got God of the Expanse was when I found an ancient ruins for the free Wheel technology and started building Stonehenge on turn 2.

I don't play with ruins. Maybe I should. However, I feel you still would found the last pantheon. Stonehenge first would take at least twenty turns to complete, sometimes more, depends on production and food availability, by this time all AI will have their pantheons.

The AI founds at a rate that I can't match, unless its Goddess of Nature maybe?

I have the exact same experience and opinion. I would like to add purity with abundant marshes and lakes to the equation.

 

[tothePAIN]

@Cokolwiek Thanks. I did manage to found as tradition on certain starts. I think your estimate of the AI's pantheon choice is a little low - its usually low 20s. But its still way early. I can't get a pantheon until turn 30ish usually.

 

[Stalker0]

Is it still the case? I know it was some months ago.

Yes, the AI gets absolutely no faith bonuses for difficulty. So its only "bonus" is how quickly it can get faith producing buildings or policies compared to the human.

 

[DeAnno]

The more I've been playing some openings (~100 turns) with various civs the more I believe Founding on Immortal with a non-Faith civ is a mug's game. Usually to do it safely you need to beat T85 (even that may not always be safe), and to do that you need to mess up your civ in some pretty obscene ways. And even if you do found, if you found in the 80s the religion game might not treat you well as a "late founder."

The only non-religious found I think I'd truly trust right now is the old busted Nature + Giant Mountain range. Even previously trusted founds like Sovereign Expanse, Spirit of the Desert, and Fishing Boat Sea Spam feel a little sketchy these days.

It may be that this is a better state for balance and we just aren't used to it though; having your own hand picked religion without having to conquer it is quite the advantage and allows some crazy yields from Founders early on.

 

[CrazyG]

In my first game in a while on Deity, the first AI picked their pantheon on turn 23 (Austria who I think had met two faith CS). The 7th had chosen on turn 28. I think the variance is caused by meeting faith city states. AI shouldn't get getting as early as turn 16 unless the civ itself gets faith (like Spain, Ethiopia, Siam, etc)

As a human you need to finish a shrine on turn 3 to match that, which is very rarely happening. Stonehenge is possible before that though (especially with ancient ruins), but generally you can expect last choice of pantheons