Going for Gold: Pantheons

[JamesNinelives]

OK, but again talking about founding being very difficult on Deity (or even Immortal) kinda skews the picture. It's quite reasonable on lower difficulties. Certainly it's been harder recently as the AI had improved, and I've found myself really having to push on difficulties that were previously easier. But that's the nature of AI improvements. I'm not sure how we could nerf the AI in gaining a religion without just making them generally weaker.

 

[ElliotS]

OK, but again talking about founding being very difficult on Deity (or even Immortal) kinda skews the picture. It's quite reasonable on lower difficulties. Certainly it's been harder recently as the AI had improved, and I've found myself really having to push on difficulties that were previously easier. But that's the nature of AI improvements. I'm not sure how we could nerf the AI in gaining a religion without just making them generally weaker.

By removing the bonuses they get to building shrines. On lower levels they get a smaller bonus, so it won't affect them as much. On higher levels they get shrines out so unreasonably fast that it makes it unduly hard to compete. They shouldn't be able to get turn 3-5 shrines every game, it's game-warping and I think the wrong place for Deity's difficulty to come from.

 

[JamesNinelives]

By removing the bonuses they get to building shrines. On lower levels they get a smaller bonus, so it won't affect them as much. On higher levels they get shrines out so unreasonably fast that it makes it unduly hard to compete. They shouldn't be able to get turn 3-5 shrines every game, it's game-warping and I think the wrong place for Deity's difficulty to come from.

It seems reasonable to assume they don't get bonuses to building shrines specifically, so are you talking about building production bonus?

 

[ElliotS]

It seems reasonable to assume they don't get bonuses to building shrines specifically, so do you talking about building production bonus?

Yeah, and that they probably shouldn't be allowed to use the bonus from founding a city towards shrines either. Faster settler production, population growth and other bonuses (like the normal discount on building buildings that matter for pantheons) are probably enough to make it challenging to compete for religion on high difficulties.

 

[Cokolwiek]

Yeah, and that they probably shouldn't be allowed to use the bonus from founding a city towards shrines either. Faster settler production, population growth and other bonuses (like the normal discount on building buildings that matter for pantheons) are probably enough to make it challenging to compete for religion on high difficulties.

Other bonuses do influence faith indirectly a great deal. Faster and cheaper workers to improve tiles and free population to hit thresholds of things like ancestor worship. With bonuses to shrine it creates an overkill.

 

[DeAnno]

Being wide in general tends to be quite good for Faith, moreso than Science or Culture both because there is no penalty to it and the capital has less advantage in it. So you end up with the AI having a Faith advantage more comparable to its hammer advantage than its Culture/Science advantage. The thing is the AI is quite bad at using hammers efficiently so that's less difficult to equalize, but Faith just founds a religion on its own, and enough of them stop the human from Founding at all.

Part of me kind of thinks the distortionary thing is that unlike Policies or Techs if you are "too much" behind in Faith you get shut out of the game entirely. I wonder what the game looks like if every major civ gets to found.

 

[CrazyG]

The current version of Renewal is really out of control in how much science it gives. Even with very little forest or jungle it can match or even beat Wisdom in science (which is pretty good itself), while also providing large amounts of culture.

Was the old version even bad? 1 and per 2 forest/jungle always seemed good to me, and it's very powerful with stuff like Mayan Kuna or Brazilwood camps.

 

[kawyua]

renewal can be nuts rolling into a dense forest start. the fact that there is no cap on that pantheon means it can scale really well, given a certain start, passed early game. it definitely is little bit on the strong side compared to other pantheons and easier to activate.
I think as crazyg said the science is a little bit much. I thought just 1 per 2 forest/jungle and the markets buff was good already.

The 2 and on markets is kind of overkill on top of the yields.

edits: oh yields on markets was on this pantheon before the 4/17 patch

 

[tothePAIN]

The current version of Renewal is really out of control in how much science it gives. Even with very little forest or jungle it can match or even beat Wisdom in science (which is pretty good itself), while also providing large amounts of culture.

Was the old version even bad? 1 and per 2 forest/jungle always seemed good to me, and it's very powerful with stuff like Mayan Kuna or Brazilwood camps.

Its inconsistent and not strong enough to consistently found? But in the right starts, it can be really strong?

 

[CrazyG]

Its inconsistent and not strong enough to consistently found? But in the right starts, it can be really strong?

I have founded a religion several times using the old one. Right now I think anything is inconsistent because of how much faith CS affect things, but the old version really was quite good. If it's weakness is faith, the market should get faith. But either way this science is too much.

Really these 'long term really strong but inconsistent' pantheons are bad design IMO, because several civs can get a religion regardless of a slightly low faith output, and when an AI gets a religion they can really snowball (two games in a row the science leaders (Brazil and then Aztec) had this pantheon and led all other AI by several techs. Neither of those civs have bonus science and they were ahead of civs with science, such as Russia, and a Venice who had the Great Library.

 

[tothePAIN]

To be clear, by inconsistent, I mean that it depends heavily on terrain. Even in the best case scenarios though, its not faith heavy enough to guarantee founding on its own like Goddess of Nature, for instance. The AI might be able to found with it better than humans, given their increased population and culture border expansion. But that's true for the AI for multiple pantheons, where I expect the AI to found with certain pantheons but not humans.

I don't see faith CS as a huge issue with regards to founding. They're too inconsistent to depend upon.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't see faith CS as a huge issue with regards to founding. They're too inconsistent to depend upon.

That's what I meant, they are really inconsistent, so they add to the inconsistency. Right now in a game Assyria is allied to a faith CS somehow on turn 57, that's 10 faith per turn. A few random quest completions can causes the AI to get religions much earlier than on a map with few faith CS.

 

[JamesNinelives]

The current version of Renewal is really out of control in how much science it gives. Even with very little forest or jungle it can match or even beat Wisdom in science (which is pretty good itself), while also providing large amounts of culture.

Was the old version even bad? 1 and per 2 forest/jungle always seemed good to me, and it's very powerful with stuff like Mayan Kuna or Brazilwood camps.

Um, yes - it was! Super annoying if a pantheon is only foundable if you are playing the Maya. The Maya can found with almost anything; frankly I think they are one of the consistently stronger civs at the moment.

it definitely is little bit on the strong side compared to other pantheons and easier to activate.

I strongly disagree. Ancestor Worship, Open Sky, God of War, and probably God of the Sea and Tutelary Gods are at least as strong and only Open Sky has recieved any attention.

Renewal scales well but is very situational. If Renewal is too strong, then Nature is also too strong on the basis that sometimes you get maps with a ton of mountains. I've been testing Renewal and founding requires not just a little jungle or forest - it requires a lot. At least when you have lots of mountains with Nature you're guaranteed to found and once your cities are built you don't have to do anything special.

With Renewal you have to intentionally work (and in order to found also purchase) non-resource tiles. Yes it's very strong in culture and science if you focus on that aspect but it comes with a cost. Either don't improve your resources, or take the hit to your food/production/gold by not working them.

I've also been testing Wisdom and I would be happy for it to get a buff. It's still noticeably easier to found with than Renewal though. So it's a risk/reward situation. Wisdom is also not nearly as situational. It pairs well with Tradition and there are more than a couple of civs who benefit from that synergy (Babylon and Arabia especially but also India, Korea, Ethiopia etc.).

 

[CrazyG]

Um, yes - it was! Super annoying if a pantheon is only foundable if you are playing the Maya. The Maya can found with almost anything; frankly I think they are one of the consistently stronger civs at the moment.

It wasn't only foundable if you played Maya, that's just factually false. But besides that, how this version better at founding? If you want it to be better at getting a religion, it should get more faith, not a huge amount of science. The 4 yields attached to the market are really over the top.

I disagree about wisdom. Wisdom is a good pantheon that does not need a buff.

 

[JamesNinelives]

But besides that, how this version better at founding?

That's not what I mean. It's a low-faith pantheon that's high on other yields; that's what it's designed to be. Previously it was both difficult to found with and didn't offer enough other yields to compete with other low-faith pantheons. That's why it was buffed. If people want to swap the science for a little faith then sure, go ahead. I would be happy with that. I don't see the point in a straight nerf though.

 

[CrazyG]

that's what it's designed to be

I see what you are saying. I suppose this is the part where I disagree, I viewed as a pantheon designed to be used on certain terrain. Forest or jungle support is appealing to several civs without early faith, including Iroquios, Brazil, and Siam (if no faith CS nearby). It can also be a good choice for anyone who spawns in a huge jungle, and a good backup option if the camp or plantation pantheon are already taken.

Terrain pantheons shouldn't be designed as high-risk/reward in my opinion, they become too-niche. It works better for generic options such as God-King.

Either way, I think it should get faith on the market and have the science reduced. So like +22 to markets and 11 for every 2 jungle or forest.

 

[azum4roll]

Either way, I think it should get faith on the market and have the science reduced. So like +22 to markets and 11 for every 2 jungle or forest.

So just 4-17 version with changed to ? I'm okay with that.

Aztec AI just failed to found with renewal (last religion was founded on turn 108; India, Arabia, China, The Inca and Germany founded), but it's probably due to poor tile management. I've seen them working one forest tile and one jungle tile at 3 population.

 

[Cokolwiek]

Either way, I think it should get faith on the market and have the science reduced. So like +22 to markets and 11 for every 2 jungle or forest.

I agree. I always vastly preferred springtime to renewal solely because of that two faith on herbalists.

Terrain pantheons shouldn't be designed as high-risk/reward in my opinion, they become too-niche. It works better for generic options such as God-King.

Yeah. Look what has been done to desert one for example. It's basically unusable right now.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Terrain pantheons shouldn't be designed as high-risk/reward in my opinion, they become too-niche.

I agree. IMO Tutelary Gods is a good example of a generic low-faith pantheon. God-King doesn't feel very strong to me, but I haven't really used it much so I don't really know.

So just 4-17 version with changed to ? I'm okay with that.

Aztec AI just failed to found with renewal (last religion was founded on turn 108; India, Arabia, China, The Inca and Germany founded), but it's probably due to poor tile management. I've seen them working one forest tile and one jungle tile at 3 population.

Yeah. I've been trying to found with Renewal as the Iroquois and it's difficult without extra faith. Which is disappointing because thematically they go so well together.

Look what has been done to desert one for example.

Is it? Last I remember it gave you faith on desert resources without needing improvement, which worked well for me.

Similar to the tundra pantheon Stars and Sky, although seems more common to have lots of desert than lots of tundra.

 

[CrazyG]

The Tundra pantheon is pretty bad even on Tundra (I still consider stuff like God of War or Tutelary Gods with a lot of tundra). I really don't know why Goddess of the Hunt gives food to tundra resources but Stars and Sky does not. It always comes up that they would be too similar if tundra gave good too, but I think the solution is to drop the food on Hunt and give food to Tundra (instead of gold if needed for balance)

Spirit can go well on big desert start. The production is actually really valuable. However it is lacks both culture and science, the amount of which in pantheons has gone up a lot over recent changes.