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Going for Gold: Pantheons

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Hunt gets food on tundra tiles...perhaps just a flat +1 food in all cities?

    G
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    IMO aurora is fine (except it should extend to tundra AND snow tiles.

    mid you’re a hardcore tundra civ you can get your food off coastal.
     
  3. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    I think there is an overwhelming majority if not a consensus that this is not a very popular feature if it's not a technical limitation.
    The same feature that denies the Celts 3 faith in each city after founding a religion.
     
    JamesNinelives and tothePAIN like this.
  4. DaniSciB

    DaniSciB Chieftain

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    Dance of Aurora deserves a buff. A start on tundra is a death sentence for the AI and an instant reroll for me lol.

    Idea:

    Spirit of the Desert has: +1 Production :c5production:, +1 Gold :c5gold: and +1 Faith :c5faith: on resources on Desert, and +3 Food :c5food: on Oasis.

    Let's make a Mirror:

    +1 Food :c5food:, +1 Production :c5production: and +1 Faith :c5faith: on resources on Tundra (Gold replaced for Food). And maybe an extra bonus of +1 Faith :c5faith: per city.

    This would make Dance of the Aurora a powerful Founder (Which is something that suits very well), would solve the problems of Tundra being a "No-Go-Zone"/AVOID..." and give a Tundra start something that buff their insanely weak start.

    Since deers are somewhat "common" on Tundra tiles (particularly with Communitu_79a) this would make Tundra a decent if not powerful start... We can argue about how much stronger would be, certainly not as the Desert which also has the Petra.

    Off Topic: #TundraWonder
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
    Bromar1 likes this.
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the issue there is Hunt. It never should have been added in the first place. That pantheons already gives food to camps. Why on earth would the goddess of the hunt bring food to deposits of stone or gems. It's stupid in terms of flavor, it stupid in terms of gameplay.

    I think Dance of the Aurora blows. Even on extreme tundra I often don't pick it because I desperately need food and production, of which it provides neither. The luxuries that appear on tundra are almost all food light (only furs give food).

    Sure in theory it's worth 8 culture in my capital, except how do I even grow to that population? If I don't work the gem hills and stone, I'm not even using the pantheon. But if I do work them the city stagnates.

    Replace the gold with food. I'd also support including snow.
     
    JamesNinelives, azum4roll and ElliotS like this.
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Cause you don't WANT to fix it or you CAN'T fix it?
    ----
    Goddess of hunt didn't need the food on tundra tiles, it's the tundra pantheon which needs it. Camps are mostly food heavy, they can live without extra food. I also would suggest to split the Yields for desert/tundra to 2 steps:

    Spirit of the Desert:
    +1 Faith :c5faith: and Food :c5food: for resources on desert, additional +1 Production :c5production: and Gold :c5gold: if improved

    And a mirror to tundra:
    +1 Food :c5food: and culture :c5culture: for resources on tundra, additional +1 Faith :c5faith: and Gold :c5gold: if improved

    Goddess of Hunt:
    +1 :c5gold:/:c5culture:/:c5faith: on camps, +1:c5faith:/:c5food: if city borders a river

    -----
    My personal view to God-King:
    I really like it, or at least I try to like it, cause I like pantheon which grow into the late game well. But the amount of faith you gain is extremely low, unless you play a religious civ or push shrines in each city first, founding is hard. And the pantheon/religion transition is very hard too.

    I would suggest, remove the :c5goldenage: points from God-King and lower the requirements to 4 followers for one instance. Or change the requirement from followers to citizens and increase the faith in capital to 2.
    Ancestors should get back their ratio of 1:c5faith: per 3 :c5citizen: to be not too bad in comparison.
     
  7. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I don't see what's wrong with Hunt's having extra Food on Tundra - Tundra needs 1 or 2 backup Pantheons and this works perfectly fine as that.
     
  8. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    I like the hunt pantheon but it just feels wrong that tundra start gets much stronger with Hunt pantheon rather than the specific tundra pantheon.
    I think the primary tundra pantheon should not be weaker on tundra starts than another pantheon i.e. a backup pantheon should not be better than pantheon it backs up.
     
  9. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    You know you're right - because the Tundra Pantheon used to provide 4 yields. But only sort of right, because the Tundra Pantheon still provides those yields to ALL resources, and instantly as well - so I'd still be inclined to say that that's stronger.

    Perhaps a Pantheon (like Open Sky) that provides yields for each Tundra tile used?
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    :nono: As I tell my 4yo, "you have to use your nice words or daddy can't understand you."

    G
     
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  11. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Gazebo
    Daddy of the Community Patch
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So I can say that on most runs I've done with Tundra (which has been on Communitas_79 most of the time), I do think hunt is the stronger Tundra pantheon most of the time. For two reasons:

    1) Communitas_79 has a lot of deer on tundra. So this gives me everything I need, strong food, excellent culture....tundra cities with lots of hunt deer are very good cities.

    2) I never stay in the Tundra. Tundra is not usually so large on the settings I play that I find all of my cities stay there. Therefore, while hunt is useful for tundra AND my other cities, the Stars pantheon is worthless once I leave the tundra.
     
    ElliotS and BiteInTheMark like this.
  13. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Point taken.
     
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  14. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Would it be fine if God-King was just made into 1 Culture/Science/Gold etc. for every 8:c5citizen: Citizens then, rather than Pantheon followers? I think the amount of followers is always a little lower than number of citizens anyway, so number-wise not too much should change. That works around the problem regarding Pantheon followers, right? I don't know how it works code-wise, but this should also work if other cities are converted, right? So it would be somewhat synergistic with Syncretism and whatnot.

    If it were per 8:c5citizen: citizens, I think God-King could use a small buff now that Craftsman also gets 2:c5faith:, 1:c5science: and 1:c5culture: from the Capital, why not give God-King 1 :c5culture:/:c5science:/:c5faith:/:c5gold:/:c5goldenage: points from the Capital by default? As a little kick-start.
     
  15. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    Isn't God-King supposed to be a "non-founding" pantheon? I don't think there's a problem with having these, it should just be clear that the bonus ONLY applies to pantheon.
    I think Goddess of the Hunt is fine.
    I need to try the Tundra pantheon. From the looks of it it seems decent. I don't often get Tundra starts (one time that I did recently, I had a Camp luxury so Hunt made more sense). Extending it into snow would also make it only sliiiightly better, but will be making a ton of sense
     
  16. Necamijat

    Necamijat Warlord

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    I don't agree with this. If it's a non-founding pantheon, why is it specifically catered to having a large population and follower sizes? The other non-founder doesn't scale past turn 40ish, and gives a lot of yields to make up for the fact that you can't found with it. God-King gives so few yields early that takes so long to get even with other pantheons, and if you end up getting someone else's religion (which if you don't found you certainly will) you basically had a subpar pantheon for the early game for no reason.
     
  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    As a non-founder, God-King doesn't compete very well at the moment. There's a bunch of other pantheons that provide good yields. Just look at Tutelary Gods and God of Craftsmen. Or God of All Creation if you really don't care about founding.

    Hunt works well, but it's effectively the default tundra pantheon at the moment IMO. I've played with Stars and Sky and it's not the worst pantheon ever but it's never my first choice either - it feels more like a backup for if Hunt (or God of the Sea etc.) is already taken.

    Edit: IMO return food on tundra tiles to Stars and Sky, and give Hunt something per city instead.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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  18. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    Tundra pantheon looks better on paper with better yields without having to improve resources but it just cannot compete with the hunt that solves the food poor land that's inherent with tundra start; communitas/communitu79 fixes this issue to a degree by spawning more deer on tundra which made the hunt pantheon even more appealing to tundra starts.
    I'd prefer if the tundra pantheon got food on tundra resources and hunt simply loses it as it's still a good pantheon for founding without it.
     
  19. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    Here's an idea, let Hunt as is, it feels very good for those sorta subarctic starts where you're split between Tundra and temperate land, like how stalker0 described, or a similar game of mine.
    Extend Stars and Sky bonuses to snow and have it give cities with at least one Snow tile in their borders some bonus, like 1:c5science: Or :c5happy:. If it proves too strong remove the :c5gold: from tiles?
     
  20. DaniSciB

    DaniSciB Chieftain

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    Thing is, there is no way to make Snow tiles to give "Realistic" yields. Maybe just faith.

    Tundra need to be buffed, particularly early, they need boosts to Food and Production ASAP.

    A mirror of Spirit of the Desert may work partially, but since Tundra empty tiles are sad on their own an extra bonus might be required.

    The point IMO should be: Make Tundra a Playable start and particularly a powerful founder since is something that suits it very well.

    Tundra pantheon should be way more appealing than Hunt... Just as Desert is top priority on any Desert start.
     

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