Going for Gold: Pantheons

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think hunt is fine, so what if it’s good with tundra areas...that’s a feature not a draw back.

    If stars needs a boost, than let’s boost it. I like the idea of happiness if founded on tundra (which is +5 or +10% growth bonus).

    we could also go a little out of the box, maybe a +5% GP boost (the entire pantheon doesn’t have to be purely about tundra)

    i do agree that yields on snow won’t cut it, but you could do a (+X for every 2 snow tiles within 3)...a little bit like nature but using snow instead of mountains.

    or something dirt simple: +1 food per city
     
  2. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    If we are that keen on flavour let's just look at earth's snow/tundra cultures. Inuits, Norwegians, Russians, Finns, Siberian peoples contemporary and ancient -a lot of human populations in Eurasia have origins in Siberia-, Canada. To me, and I kind of like the "bonus in city if there is snow tile" way, similar to god of sea/purity, :c5science: :c5culture: :c5faith: or :c5happy: seem like fitting choices, when thinking of the effects that living in such an environment has. Of course a +x per y snow tiles can also work...
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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  3. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    +1:c5happy: and :c5faith: from cities founded on or adjacent to Tundra sounds good to me.
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Happiness seems weird to me given the incredible levels of depression in Inuit communities.
     
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  5. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    It's from a gameplay perspective, if I start in Tundra I'm usually gonna try to expand because my starting position likely doesn't have very many good tiles. There aren't many pantheons that give happiness.
     
  6. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    Maybe that's more within Canada's more recent social and historical past? And not tied to the Inuit traditional lifestyle. Admittedly I am not well studied in Canadian history so you can prove me wrong on that one. But happiness as the abstract mechanic it is in civ, I think can be justified. It also makes sense gameplay-wise as chicorbeef says.
     
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  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    And in VP terms, you can chalk that up to increased unhappiness due to lower yields compared to other cultures (which is already a mechanic). In this case, we are simply using a religion to say "even though living in tundra sucks, this religion allowed people to mentally endure it better than normal".

    That doesn't turn it into "tundra people are the happiest people in the world!"
     
  8. HixBozo

    HixBozo Warlord

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    This poll is very old but I will just say that starting on tundra is tough. But the advantage is that most of the time you will have very few neighbors (on very large maps) to worry about. Can go really expansionist and zero worries from neighbors. Still tundra is tough with difficult growth of population.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    directly giving happiness isn’t nuanced. Rather, it is a bit on the nose. If we were to order yields by relevance to northern cultures, I would say :c5production::c5culture::c5faith::c5food:. Resources like wild game and fish aren’t merely food for people like the Chukchi and Inuit, they’re the only building material available to make clothing, housing, tools, equipment, and art. You don’t have anything strong enough to shape stone, and you don’t have enough flammable material to start fires, so you have to make everything with bone, sinew, pelts, and driftwood. The resourcefulness of northern people, who were able to create many distinct and rich material cultures despite such limited materials is a testament to human ingenuity and adaptability.
     
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  10. Drakle

    Drakle King

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    A bit of a out of the box solution, and one that cannibalises a mod civilisation partly.

    But what if every civ settled in Tundra or Snow, with the pantheon spawns a single luxury resource tile. If coastal, it spawns seals and/or walruses. If inland, it spawns Reindeer. Or maybe Sable fur, for a Siberian influence. But it means that every single city settled would have a guaranteed one good useful tile. So any civ can be a Tundra Indonesia (so not a ton of new coding).

    It would also then give a bonus to tundra resources, and the specific spawned resource, since some spawn in water.

    It gives happiness, but not as a direct bonus. And arctic and subarctic people, often traded furs and walrus Ivory to other peoples, so a luxury resource works.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
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  11. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Deity

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    The strength of hunt pantheon lies more in its flexibilty, than in its pure bonuses. You didnt settle in tundra, cause you want, but because you have to. With hunt, you can still settle spots outside of tundra and trigger the pantheon by normal deer or luxury ressources, while leaving a tundra region with the tundra pantheon gives you absolutly zero benefits.
    Lets think out of the box. What if cities without access to tundra ressources still get or give a benefit?
    Each city without access to a tundra ressource (or per definition not bordering a tundra tile) gets a flat benefit like :c5food::c5gold::c5culture::c5faith: or the holy city gains those yields for each city which didnt can benefit from the pantheon.
    Trade was also always a very important part to survive ressource poor locations, so this pantheon could get a buff for trade or internal trade like +3:c5food:/:c5production: for internal trade routes or +25% for internal trade routes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2020
  12. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Well we already have a pantheon that makes hunting good, and we already have a pantheon that makes fishing good. So it looks like the flavor you noted is already well taken of by other pantheons. So I think its fair that we could divorce the star pantheon from these cultural flavors.
     
  14. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I actually strongly agree with Pdan on this.

    Stars and Sky currently does grants faith and culture. It's missing production and food. Why not simply have it give production and/or food per city? That seems like a logical and thematic solution.
     
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  15. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    And give the yields to resources on snow too.
     
  16. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    In my current game with Korea, I'm playing as a Tradition Warmonger with God-King. With the 20% bonus from my Founder (whatever that is - I forgot), God-King is giving my capital huge yields. The Warmonger part is that I'm Puppeting EVERY city I capture in order to increase the God-King yield even more without supplanting my good science and culture.

    God-King makes no sense as a non-founding Pantheon. It's definitely a strong low-faith yield founding pantheon.
     
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  17. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    God-King isn't a "non-founding" pantheon. God-King is a "I can found without needing much faith from my pantheon and therefore want a ton of yields from my pantheon" pantheon.

    Civs like Aztecs can found with it and then use it's bonuses to carry them further into the game.
     
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  18. Novntis

    Novntis Chieftain

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    I like these ideas a lot but any of them make for a very strong pantheon (essentially a watered down Indonesia in the case of resource spawns; watered down ottomans for trade routes). Honestly I think the current beta pantheon buff (+1 food on tundra resources for Stars and Sky) should be sufficient to mirror the benefits of Spirit of the Desert which is always a strong choice. I think the trade of food for production is fair and shores up each start's relative weakness. The added culture on resources is also probably enough to counter balance +3f on oasis tiles.

    The underlying and persistent problem in my mind is that tundra is still objectively bad compared to other terrain even if your map script ups deer and forest spawn. Imho I think we should probably discuss in a separate thread if we need to buff base tundra with either yields, a terrain locked wonder, or more bonus resources to approximate the relative benefits of desert/oasis/floodplains in the early game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
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  19. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Seems like a good idea to me. Tundra starts with lots of forest is actually very decent, but flat tundra is kinda terrible.
     
  20. azum4roll

    azum4roll Emperor

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    It already has LOTS of forest. Well, at least in Communitu_79a.
     

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