Going for Gold: Pantheons

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

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Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    60.0%
  2. No

    40.0%
  1. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    Tultelary is OK but I think it's usually inferior to GOAC. It has 1:c5faith: per city with similar difficulty (3:c5citizen: vs monument), and both produce similar amounts of gold. The main difference is while Tutelary has 3:c5production: in your satellites, GOAC has the huge 1:c5culture:4:c5science:4:c5food: in the capital, which is easily worth 2-4 sats of Tutelary yields depending, and comes online much faster. There's the Engineer bonus too, but I find it's hard to really get that running fast outside the Tradition Engineer, so it's not a huge deal.

    Ultimately these pantheons that give low amounts of Faith should get the large rewards we see here, because it's a pretty big handicap with Religion Founding being as strong as it is. Even if you can found with one of them anyway your religion will usually be slowed down quite a bit by it and there should be commensurate payback.
     
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  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yeah I feel like Tultelary is similar to GOAC, as both are low faith pantheons that give great starts. Its a reasonable niche (which is a step up for me because I used to think it was garbage), and I have used it for key wonder rush strats from time to time, but I do not consider it a top tier pantheon, I think there are much stronger ones.
     
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  3. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I do sometimes feel a bit jealous of AIs able to found with Tutelary seemingly without too much trouble, but yeah I don't consider it to be the strongest of the pantheons as it is harder to found with. Certainly I believe that it's perhaps one of the strongest low-faith pantheons - production is extremely useful after all, but the risk of missing out on a religion balances that well enough IMO.

    I am curious about how you think it could be best used though, @Laz0r. I guess it is pretty strong in the situations where you take tradition and play a civ that gives you faith as part of their kit. I haven't played that way a lot though. What playstyle do you prefer? What kind of settings do you play other than difficulty? It's fine you're not on Deity, that shouldn't be considered the default but it might be useful to know map, game speed etc.
     
  4. Laz0r

    Laz0r Chieftain

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    Generally I play huge maps and 22 civs/40 city states, epic speed, and usually every player has 6 or so cities of space unless I'm playing a map like tectonic.

    Tutelary is most useful for progress/authority games where going as wide as possible is the intended goal. In such instances the pantheon is, at worst, pretty good. At best, it's pretty much the best and most useful pantheon as such an easy source of hammers and gold will allow the snowballing to begin by rapidly speeding up ancient-early classical building/unit production in every city and thereby letting you prepare for conquest/begin conquest earlier.

    The pantheon effectively provides what is a weaker combination of a watermill and market without having to invest ANYTHING besides one shrine to get it, and does so earlier than when you'd be able to practically build each building in every city assuming you've gone wide. NO other pantheon allows for gold and production yields to be gotten so quickly in this amount in every city, and no other pantheon is so independent of situational factors while still providing this amount of usefulness in every city (not counting celt pantheons).

    It goes without saying as well, its bonus yields would compensate well for having to build shrines first in every city in order to found a religion, and I've personally had little trouble founding with it so long as my starting terrain was generous enough with the gold/production output and I put out settlers quickly.
     
  5. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I suppose this is our point of difference. I've always considered that Tutelary was intended to be a non-founding pantheon or at least a pantheon intended for civs with another source of faith in order to found reliably. It sounds like we play on similar settings in some regards, but you build settlers and expand your civ faster than I tend to, so perhaps that why you find the pantheon so powerful.
    I feel like this does count as a niche :).
     
  6. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I feel like Ancestor Worship leaves something to be desired VS God-King. Ancestor Worship obviously yields more Faith in the long run, but against utterly obscene yields from God-King; whereas in the short run, God-King can manage only a bit less Faith with still a ton more yields. I don't understand the incentive of Ancestor Worship at all. Would love to see the old 1 Faith for 3 pop restored without a cap and make it the ultimate faith-pumping Pantheon.
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    With the recent change to Ancestor Worship, its a very good pick off a Stonehenge opener. Ancestor Worship now turns your council into a super building....the first building you should build in every single city, and Stonehenge gets you started with a free council.

    This gives you a nice set of the best yields (culture and science) starting very early, and lets satellite cities become productive very quickly. Give it a try, its one of my new favorite openers.
     
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