Going for Gold: Pillage Bonuses

[pineappledan]

Key question, is it ok for pillaging to provide 7 times more gold in the last era than the first? Or do we need to curb that a bit

My opinion is no. There should be a base amount, and then a scaling amount. Maybe 5 minimum, and then more based on the type of improvement and the era.

PillageGold = 5 + (TileBaseValue * Era * (Rand(75::125)/100))

5 gold minimum
tile multiplier, modified by era, and ±25% around that value

So maybe Farms, Pastures and Plantations have a base value of 5.

In ancient/classical, pillaging a farm is worth (5+5*1*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 7.5-12.5
In Renaissance, pillaging a farm is worth (5+5*3*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 16.25-23.75
In Information, pillaging a farm is worth (5+5*7*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 31.25-48.75

And maybe Great People Tiles form the upper boundary of, say, 25?
In ancient/classical, pillaging a GPT is worth (5+25*1*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 23.75-36.25
In Renaissance, pillaging a GPTis worth (5+25*3*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 61.25-98.75
In Information, pillaging a GPTis worth (5+25*7*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 136.25-223.75

PillageGold Base values:

IMPROVEMENT_OFFSHORE_PLATFORM--30
--
IMPROVEMENT_CUSTOMS_HOUSE_VENICE--25
IMPROVEMENT_LANDMARK--25
IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL--25
IMPROVEMENT_ACADEMY--25
IMPROVEMENT_CUSTOMS_HOUSE--25
IMPROVEMENT_MANUFACTORY--25
IMPROVEMENT_HOLY_SITE--25
--
IMPROVEMENT_BRAZILWOOD_CAMP--20
IMPROVEMENT_POLDER--20
IMPROVEMENT_KASBAH--20
IMPROVEMENT_KUNA--20
IMPROVEMENT_CHATEAU--20
IMPROVEMENT_FEITORIA--20
IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOATS--20
--
IMPROVEMENT_ENCAMPMENT_SHOSHONE--15
IMPROVEMENT_TRADING_POST--15
--
IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL_JUNGLE--10
IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL--10
IMPROVEMENT_MINE--10
IMPROVEMENT_QUARRY--10
IMPROVEMENT_WELL--10
IMPROVEMENT_CAMP--10
IMPROVEMENT_MOAI--10
--
IMPROVEMENT_TERRACE_FARM--5
IMPROVEMENT_EKI--5
IMPROVEMENT_FARM--5
IMPROVEMENT_PASTURE--5
IMPROVEMENT_PLANTATION--5
--
IMPROVEMENT_CITY_RUINS--0
IMPROVEMENT_BARBARIAN_CAMP--0
IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT--0
IMPROVEMENT_FORT--0
IMPROVEMENT_ARCHAEOLOGICAL_DIG--0
IMPROVEMENT_JFD_MACHU_PICCHU--0
IMPROVEMENT_EMBASSY--0

 

[chicorbeef]

I think it's fine. The amount of gold you need scales much faster than the pillaging would. Even if you can pillage 4 times more late than early, a farm going from average 9 gold now to average 10 gold in ancient and 70 gold in information era seems fine. considering I'm pretty sure units cost like 2K at that point.

This. The costs of things don't go up linearly, they go up exponentially, so it makes sense that pillaging scales linearly at the least. The gold from pillaging would still relatively be worth far more in the Ancient than in the Information Era.

 

[tu_79]

My opinion is no. There should be a base amount, and then a scaling amount. Maybe 5 minimum, and then more based on the type of improvement and the era.

PillageGold = 5 + (TileBaseValue * Era * Rand(0.75::1.25))

5 gold minimum
tile multiplier, modified by era, and ±25% around that value

So maybe Farms, Pastures and Plantations have a base value of 5.

In ancient/classical, pillaging a farm is worth (5+5*1*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 7.5-12.5
In Renaissance, pillaging a farm is worth (5+5*3*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 16.25-23.75
In Information, pillaging a farm is worth (5+5*7*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 31.25-48.75

And maybe Great People Tiles form the upper boundary of, say, 25?
In ancient/classical, pillaging a GPT is worth (5+25*1*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 23.75-36.25
In Renaissance, pillaging a GPTis worth (5+25*3*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 61.25-98.75
In Information, pillaging a GPTis worth (5+25*7*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 136.25-223.75

PillageGold Base values:

IMPROVEMENT_OFFSHORE_PLATFORM--30
--
IMPROVEMENT_CUSTOMS_HOUSE_VENICE--25
IMPROVEMENT_LANDMARK--25
IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL--25
IMPROVEMENT_ACADEMY--25
IMPROVEMENT_CUSTOMS_HOUSE--25
IMPROVEMENT_MANUFACTORY--25
IMPROVEMENT_HOLY_SITE--25
--
IMPROVEMENT_BRAZILWOOD_CAMP--20
IMPROVEMENT_POLDER--20
IMPROVEMENT_KASBAH--20
IMPROVEMENT_KUNA--20
IMPROVEMENT_CHATEAU--20
IMPROVEMENT_FEITORIA--20
IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOATS--20
--
IMPROVEMENT_ENCAMPMENT_SHOSHONE--15
IMPROVEMENT_TRADING_POST--15
--
IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL_JUNGLE--10
IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL--10
IMPROVEMENT_MINE--10
IMPROVEMENT_QUARRY--10
IMPROVEMENT_WELL--10
IMPROVEMENT_CAMP--10
IMPROVEMENT_MOAI--10
--
IMPROVEMENT_TERRACE_FARM--5
IMPROVEMENT_EKI--5
IMPROVEMENT_FARM--5
IMPROVEMENT_PASTURE--5
IMPROVEMENT_PLANTATION--5
--
IMPROVEMENT_CITY_RUINS--0
IMPROVEMENT_BARBARIAN_CAMP--0
IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT--0
IMPROVEMENT_FORT--0
IMPROVEMENT_ARCHAEOLOGICAL_DIG--0
IMPROVEMENT_JFD_MACHU_PICCHU--0
IMPROVEMENT_EMBASSY--0

I see what you want to do, but I think you are mistaken. Consider that not only there are more tiles to pillage, but also you have much more units to upgrade.

 

[pineappledan]

I see what you want to do, but I think you are mistaken. Consider that not only there are more tiles to pillage, but also you have much more units to upgrade.

I don't see how your comment is even remotely tied to anything in my post.

 

[tu_79]

I don't see how your comment is even remotely tied to anything in my post.

You said they don't need to scale directly with era because improvements to be pillaged already scaled, a few posts above (am I mistaken with other guy?). That's why you give them a linear component. While that might be true, gold requirement for your army is also increased, since you are going to have more units, and more units that need upgrading.

 

[pineappledan]

You said they don't need to scale directly with era because improvements to be pillaged already scaled, a few posts above (am I mistaken with other guy?). That's why you give them a linear component. While that might be true, gold requirement for your army is also increased, since you are going to have more units, and more units that need upgrading.

Is it not readily apparent that my post above has scaling in it?

Obviously I am in the minority in thinking that scaling is unnecessary, so I tried to contribute productively. Now I am being taken to task for a post that I made in an older post. It's clear that you didn't read anything I wrote.

The post you quoted has a scaling component, the only addition is that I suggested a 5 gold floor, so that gold pillage values aren't 2-3 in ancient.

I'm not sure what you could be complaining about, because I showed the math where >200 on pillage in information era is easily attainable. Is that not enough scaling for you?

 

[wobuffet]

@Gazebo Is it feasible to change the HP gained from pillaging different improvements (statically, not by Era)?

 

[chicorbeef]

@Gazebo Is it feasible to change the HP gained from pillaging different improvements (statically, not by Era)?

Why would you, though? It would be confusing to not know how much HP each improvement will give when you pillage it. Let's not over complicate combat.

 

[pineappledan]

@Gazebo Is it feasible to change the HP gained from pillaging different improvements (statically, not by Era)?

I'm with the others on this. Needless complication is needless

 

[BiteInTheMark]

The average gold from pillaging normal tiles is 5,5. The cost for units in the ancient are around 110-200. So you have to plunder 20-30 tiles to buy a new unit.
I think if we try to hold this ratio even in later eras, we have done fine. Dont forget, in most cases you are trying to conquer a city and taking one with a completly destroyed infrastructure, you are fudged also.
Pineappledan, I think the flat value should be 3, else the worth of plundering in ancient is too high. And GPI shouldnt be worth that much, maybe redue the value from 25 to 15 and its fine.

 

[Stalker0]

The average gold from pillaging normal tiles is 5,5. The cost for units in the ancient are around 110-200. So you have to plunder 20-30 tiles to buy a new unit.
I think if we try to hold this ratio even in later eras, we have done fine. Dont forget, in most cases you are trying to conquer a city and taking one with a completly destroyed infrastructure, you are ****ed also.
Pineappledan, I think the flat value should be 3, else the worth of plundering in ancient is too high. And GPI shouldnt be worth that much, maybe redue the value from 25 to 15 and its fine.

That’s a reasonable way of thinking about it. So what would the equivalent number then be in information era?

 

[pineappledan]

That’s a reasonable way of thinking about it. So what would the equivalent number then be in information era?

I think that's a sort of "coulda woulda shoulda" question.

The scaling mechanics progress as 1 -> 2 -> 3 by era.

If unit costs don't reliably double, triple, etc, there's not much we can do without making the formula incredibly complex

So @BiteInTheMark, you're recommending that the base gold be set to 3, and that gold values for improvements increase by a factor of 3 then? like this?

PillageGold = 3 + (TileBaseValue * Era * (Rand(75::125)/100))
PillageGold Base values:

IMPROVEMENT_OFFSHORE_PLATFORM--21
IMPROVEMENT_CUSTOMS_HOUSE_VENICE--17
IMPROVEMENT_CUSTOMS_HOUSE--17
IMPROVEMENT_MANUFACTORY--17
IMPROVEMENT_HOLY_SITE--17
IMPROVEMENT_LANDMARK--17
IMPROVEMENT_ACADEMY--17
IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL--17
IMPROVEMENT_BRAZILWOOD_CAMP--14
IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOATS--14
IMPROVEMENT_FEITORIA--14
IMPROVEMENT_CHATEAU--14
IMPROVEMENT_POLDER--14
IMPROVEMENT_KASBAH--14
IMPROVEMENT_KUNA--14
IMPROVEMENT_ENCAMPMENT_SHOSHONE--11
IMPROVEMENT_TRADING_POST--11
IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL_JUNGLE--8
IMPROVEMENT_LUMBERMILL--8
IMPROVEMENT_QUARRY--8
IMPROVEMENT_CAMP--8
IMPROVEMENT_WELL--8
IMPROVEMENT_MOAI--8
IMPROVEMENT_MINE--8
IMPROVEMENT_TERRACE_FARM--5
IMPROVEMENT_PLANTATION--5
IMPROVEMENT_PASTURE--5
IMPROVEMENT_FARM--5
IMPROVEMENT_EKI--5
IMPROVEMENT_ARCHAEOLOGICAL_DIG--0
IMPROVEMENT_JFD_MACHU_PICCHU--0
IMPROVEMENT_BARBARIAN_CAMP--0
IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT--0
IMPROVEMENT_CITY_RUINS--0
IMPROVEMENT_EMBASSY--0
IMPROVEMENT_FORT--0

In ancient/classical, pillaging a farm is worth (3+5*1*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 5.5-10.5
In Information, pillaging a farm is worth (3+5*7*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 29.25-46.75

And maybe Great People Tiles form the upper boundary of, say, 25?
In ancient/classical, pillaging a GPT is worth (3+17*1*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 15.75-24.25
In Information, pillaging a GPTis worth (3+17*7*Rand(0.75:1.25)) = 93.25-151.75

 

[wobuffet]

I think ideal Gold per tile ranking would be something like

Great Person Tile Improvement > luxury and strategic resources > everything else​

but that's not feasible since we're limited to improvement types (can't differentiate Iron from Stone).

For what it's worth @pineappledan 's latest numbers seem as fine a place as any to start! A factor of 2–3 between most valuable and least valuable improvements seems about right, and the time scaling seems reasonable too. Yay for era scaling!

 

[tu_79]

The average gold from pillaging normal tiles is 5,5. The cost for units in the ancient are around 110-200. So you have to plunder 20-30 tiles to buy a new unit.
I think if we try to hold this ratio even in later eras, we have done fine. Dont forget, in most cases you are trying to conquer a city and taking one with a completly destroyed infrastructure, you are ****ed also.
Pineappledan, I think the flat value should be 3, else the worth of plundering in ancient is too high. And GPI shouldnt be worth that much, maybe redue the value from 25 to 15 and its fine.

This could be it.

But it's OK if gold scaling does not exactly match, we've been playing without this scaling for a long time. Ancient pillaging is irrelevant anyway, (except when AI starts with a free worker, I guess), so getting rid of the flat bonus in pineapple formula has little effect and avoids complexity.

It's the flat scaler what I'm questioning. I don't think it is necessary. In case pineapple grunts again, I'm talking about the +3 part. I incorrectly said linear before.
3 + era * value = (flat bonus) + (linear bonus)

I blame the late hour I wrote that.

 

[Stalker0]

This could be it.

But it's OK if gold scaling does not exactly match, we've been playing without this scaling for a long time. Ancient pillaging is irrelevant anyway, (except when AI starts with a free worker, I guess), so getting rid of the flat bonus in pineapple formula has little effect and avoids complexity.

It's the flat scaler what I'm questioning. I don't think it is necessary. In case pineapple grunts again, I'm talking about the +3 part. I incorrectly said linear before.
3 + era * value = (flat bonus) + (linear bonus)

I blame the late hour I wrote that.

As an emperor player, that ancient era bonus absolutely matters. I’ve started many a war to steal a worker and pillage tiles. With the starting worker it doesn’t take long for an AI to have a selection of pillagable tiles

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Another Emperor player, it matters if the RNG is nice but most of the time I get 1 Gold which is worthless. Sometimes it feels like giving me 50 which is glorious and means even decent -GPT stops being too much of a danger, but that's a rare occurrence.

 

[pineappledan]

That's also the gold value of Classical. You have tiles then, right?

The flat yield isn’t there to reduce scaling; its there to tighten up the variance on early pillage yields and reduce the wild swings in gold value from improvement types

The placement of the which type of improvement in my ordering could be looked at again. My reasoning was as follows:
GPTs
Fancy things like towers, villas, etc.
Villages
Mines and mineral wealth
Agrarian improvements

Then sprinkle the UIs with the thing they most closely resemble.

 

[tu_79]

The flat yield isn’t there to reduce scaling; its there to tighten up the variance on early pillage yields and reduce the wild swings in gold value from improvement types

I know, but I still think it's minor, really only affects at Classical (where pillaging would be less worthy) and can be avoided. But do whatever you all are most comfortable with.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I think we have a formula now.
Suggestion to base values:
GPTI: 15
Oil Improvements: 10
Restricted UI (maya, portugal, france, brazil): 8 (or maybe 7)
Villages, fishing boats: 7
Plantation, camps, forts, all other UI: 6
Farms, mines, quarries, pastures, lumber mills: 5

 

[Gazebo]

I think we have a formula now.
Suggestion to base values:
GPTI: 15
Oil Improvements: 10
Restricted UI (maya, portugal, france, brazil): 8 (or maybe 7)
Villages, fishing boats: 7
Plantation, camps, forts, all other UI: 6
Farms, mines, quarries, pastures, lumber mills: 5

Where? I dont see it.