1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

Going for Gold: Policies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 20, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 3, 2018.
  1. Yes

    46.7%
  2. No

    53.3%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    3,487
    Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

    This thread will debate the 6 cultural trees. However, ideologies will be handled as a separate item.

    The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

    Important Notes:

    1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
    2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
    3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
    4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
     
  2. bigcat88

    bigcat88 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    549
    Gender:
    Male
    I voted yes, with one exception: tradition. I think tradition need some love, maybe +1/+2 gold somewhere at first 3 policies.
    All other policies are well balanced for gold relative to each other.
     
    vyyt and phantomaxl1207 like this.
  3. De_Genius

    De_Genius Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2016
    Messages:
    153
    I voted no for the same reason as above poster: tradition. It's not bad, but compared to progress and authority it lacks some oompf.
    Other trees seems balanced, although Fealty seems very slightly better than the rest.
     
  4. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,829
    Concerning ancient era, I think Authority/Progress/Tradition are okay. Maybe Tradition could use a boost but I don't know if that's absolutely necessary.
    I think Fealty/Statecraft have their niche (after getting 1 Statecraft Austria city conquest quest, every military unit instantly had level 5), Artistry is only for tall and so my experience is limited.

    Industrial era is where I have the least experience, but I don't see much of a reason to go Industry anymore. Rationalism's in a bad spot because of happiness changes and maybe it'll turn out better later on, Industry however just seems underwhelming. Imperialism seems the strongest currently at least with my playstyle, which is warmongering, so opinions might vary here.
     
  5. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    518
    Gender:
    Male
    I like Industry right now because it brings you out of a happiness rut and helps crush Poverty. Being able to invest in buildings so much easier is awesome with Progress.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  6. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2016
    Messages:
    621
    I think the discussion might be more fruitful if each era’s trees were discussed separately? There’s a lot to discuss, and comparing Progress to Imperialism doesn’t really make sense.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    3,487
    If that's what we need to do than so be. My assumption with these threads is that the Mod is close to completion, meaning the majority of the mod should already be balanced and good to go. These threads were really meant to be more of a "this element is ready" instead of "we need a detailed discussion". But if such discussion is needed we can break it out.
     
  8. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    7,867
    Location:
    Venice, California
    I think breaking it out further is unnecessry, and would delay the process we are engaged in at this point.
     
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,915
    Location:
    Beijing
    I think artistry could get something to help it go a little bit wider
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  10. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 8, 2014
    Messages:
    457
    maybe change the guild bonus to normal building bonus? (like amphitheater,opera house, or something).
    or each policy give additional culture per city?
     
  11. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages:
    595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Ancient trees looks fine.
    Medieval: artistry looks a bit too focused on tall play, while it have definitly some wide or thick play elements. The bonuses to guilds (faster guild production / hammer for guilds) look very underwhelming weak, buffing 1 or 2 normal buildings too, could balance it better for wide play, against the other 2 trees.

    And I think, fealty gives a bit too much food, changing the food bonuses of the buildings with something other may be good, but isnt that necessary.

    Industrial: Based on a normal landscript with enough water tiles, imperialism beats rationalismn in science in mid game. And if you have a +10% to science monopoly, it can beat it even in lategame.
    Science generation from imperialismn is definitly too high and earned by easy buffs (15 passiv science from 3 buildings you will build anyway).

    An other suggestion. Swapping the specialist bonus from rationalismn with industry finisher may help in balance. Additional gold would be production wise the same thing as extra hammers (with the help of the industry modifiers), but more gold would enable more flexible options for spending (upgrading units, luxury trade, buying diplo units).

    And nations going rationalismn unlock buildings and new units faster but lack in the option to build and upgrade them in time. The major strength of rationalismn lies in specialists and giving them some hammers would help to do this task.
     
  12. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,429
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    Remember that a monopoly gives 10% science either way, so Imperialism only gives another 10% there. Not 20%.

    That said I think rationalism could use some small buffs. (Industry seems fine) I would give 2:c5culture:/4:c5production: on Libraries, University, Public School and the Science national wonders.

    I would agree Artistry should get a wide buff.

    I'm happy with the starting three branches. If Tradition gets a small bump I wouldn't complain, but anything serious should come with -1:c5faith: on the early policy because that's an insanely good policy that really warps the religion race.
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    3,487
    So +12 hammers to every city? You and I definitely don’t agree on what’s a “small” buff:)
     
    Mauro Mezzina likes this.
  14. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    513
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    One thing I don't like about Rationalism is how it is too focused on Science. Something like +:c5production: on :c5science: Buildings or Great Person Tile improvements may help. One of Rationalism's Policies gives +5% Growth during a :c5goldenage: ( and +5% Science, which is fine); that seems rather weak.

    On Industry, I feel like the boost to Internal :trade:could be moved into the scaler insted of being at the end.

    Perhaps Imperialism was a little over buffed in terms of Science.
     
  15. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,429
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    A Public School takes 1000:c5production:. A Broadcast Tower Takes 2000:c5production:. Do you really think that 12:c5production: will destroy that balance? (Even if it's multiplied by other buildings a bit.)

    If we're worried I could see 3:c5production:/2:c5culture: on said buildings, but I don't think 12:c5production: that late in the game is such a big deal.
    I've always seen it as a policy that offers "5% :c5science:, and I guess 5% :c5food: Growth too." It doesn't feel terrible. Doubling the growth wouldn't be a big deal. I also don't think it would be enough.

    I would be careful to too many buffs though, and am not advocating taking many buffs at once. @Stalker0 is entirely correct to be careful.
     
  16. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    518
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, keep in mind that this portion of a policy alone will outclass certain industry policies, if that's okay with you.

    I think Rationalism is fine, Science is a game-winning yield after all. Rationalism is built for a science victory, usually a tall one and it's pretty good at achieving that end.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    15,160
    Location:
    Aquidneck Island
    From testing, all we need:
    • a light nerf to imperialism
    • a light buff to artistry
    • a light buff to tradition
    G
     
    mikes61293, vyyt, SupTo and 4 others like this.
  18. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,429
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    I'll trust the testing honestly.

    My suggestions:

    Tradition:
    Justice should give either 1:c5production: to other cities or 2:c5production: to cities with a Garrison.
    Artistry:
    I would take the 3:c5culture:/:c5production: from the guilds and add it to the amphitheater line.
    Imperialism:
    Buildings down to 3:c5science:/2:c5culture:

    I think that forts are pretty good to work with that policy and don't want to see that vanish completely. I would consider making Forts/Citadels 3:c5science:/2:c5culture: as well but adding 1:c5science: for Forts on Base, Rifling and Rocketry. I would also increase the two science boosts to citadels from 2 to 3.
     
    vyyt, CppMaster, chicorbeef and 2 others like this.
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    2,915
    Location:
    Beijing
    Keep in mind that rationalism gives you a golden age which boosts your production by 20% for a few turns. Something like progress with diligence has enough hammers to build almost all buildings without getting more hammers from the third policy tree.
    I've opposed a change like this for a long time, but I think it might be needed. There is land that tradition isn't really viable on just because of hammers. Like in jungle, I'm stuck at a base of 1 hammer per city, with 1 hammer per citizen for a long time and no real way to upgrade that. Sometimes you can get around it with hills, wells, or pastures, but sometimes you just can't.
    Perfect suggestion in my opinion.
     
  20. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    518
    Gender:
    Male
    What if we were to add +2 hammers on Shrines? I find that I often skip Shrines as Tradition because I don't have the hammers, this would kill two birds in one stone.

    I'm not totally sold on just flat hammers to cities because that would just be a watered down version of Progress/Authority hammers and we'd have to limit it to +1 hammer for that reason.
     

Share This Page

Ebates: Get Paid to Shop