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Going for Gold: Policies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 20, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 3, 2018.
  1. Yes

    46.7%
  2. No

    53.3%
  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Right, Britain and France leaned on their allies and colonies to supply war materiel. Russia and China depended on their vast deposits of coal and iron to wage their war. Germany and Japan pushed out to secure whatever nearby resources they could use to fuel further expansion.

    So, make autocracy feel the pinch. Give them a reason to covet more land, conquer cities and lebensraum the tiles necessary to fuel their strategic needs. Order gets some sort of secure, consistent strategic bonus, and freedom has their bonus resources tied to diplomacy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
  2. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I know coal makes more sense to give Industry, but I was just trying to address the fact iron is now more scarce than coal, due to the ship requirement and that coal refineries can provide up to 15. I threw the idea out as a brainstorm, but there's solid reasoning explained in the post. Industry / Order combo would/should/could grant maximum resources / production. I'd say having bonus resources tied to Industry (the least picked tree) is a unique incentive.

    As I said though, regardless of what is decided upon, I just want the production bonus for ports / stations at the beginning of the tree.
     
  3. Legen

    Legen King

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    I mean, you can already address strategic resource scarcity with Statecraft, as it gives a few from every 3 CS allies. And this tree makes a lot of sense for naval empires due to how navies help securing distant CS alliances, you often need a navy to defend them.

    I'm ok with the bonus of seaports and train stations coming earlier, the current timing is awkward. Fealty used to have the same issue with the castles and armories before the bonus was moved up.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So I think the recent Industry buffed has helped, but I think it comes too late in the tree. I still find I am just running out of things to build in general, and meanwhile the Rationalism players are just taking off in science/culture. Imperalism gives you more war tools to counter that with, so Industry is just kind of stuck.

    I think the trick is that both Rationalism and Imperalism get a bigger surge earlier. Enlightenment is a big booster policy for rationalism, it pushes you ahead of the pact and helps you stay there. Scientific revolution is also no slouch. For Imperalism, colonialism is a strong policy, getting you +10% often to one or two yields + basically 6 science/3 culture in every city when you get it.

    I think Industry needs to get its yields (other than just hammers) going earlier so it can compete. For example, we could swap mercantilism and division labor to get that sciency boost a bit sooner, and then move the WLTKD bonus from protectionism up to entrepreneurship.
     
  5. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    What were your earlier trees?

    Last time I used Industry, in one of the October betas, I was Austria with Tradition/Statecraft - and later Freedom.
    I seemed to do just fine catching up to Venice who had similar policies but in the mid-game had been 6-7 tech and a few policies ahead. I even started nabbing all the good wonders.
    And after Ideologies, I just started buying units to defend myself and free up CS that Venice was gobbling up. (I had hesitated with Autocracy because of that problem.)

    Just one game, but Industry was plenty strong for me.
     
  6. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    If you're running out of things to build, why not use the Science/Culture process? With Industry you also won't suffer from the Industrial/Modern lack of gold. I think it's fine.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the current iteration of the agribusiness is pretty bad for industry.
     
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  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I want to talk about the tradition opening policy. It gives +2 population, which means that the value of this can vary a lot depending on if your capital has 2,3, or 4 population when you adopt the policy. How would people feel about replacing +2 population with a comparable amount of food?
     
  9. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    +2 Population's worth of Food at 4 Pop would make it more consistent.
     
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  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  11. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Progress already does this with Science, unless I'm misunderstanding something.
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The food idea I am in favor of. Whether your civ is at 2,3, or 4 pop at that point is often less about strategic planning and more just the consequences of your starting terrain, so smoothing that out makes sense to me. I would argue enough food to get from 3 pop to 5 is a good baseline. 4 pop to 6 I think is the high end, and that makes the Tradition opener a little too strong compared to the others.
     
  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Progress gives culture for techs you have researched, and gives them retroactively for techs already researched. So yes, it isn’t just instant yields on policy adoption
    or split the difference and set it to however much food is necessary to grow from 4 to 6 with a granary retaining the 15%
     
  14. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Spoiler :


    Especially with regards to the Science part I was referencing, that seems like it's an instant yield to me. Shouldn't be new code so much as adapting the code that already exists for Progress.
     
  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    That code scales with population already in the capital. There isn’t code for just giving X yield, with no conditions, at least to my knowledge
     
  16. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Assuming it isn't trivial to adapt it to remove the conditional, I would imagine you could do an easy workaround by simply defining the variable yourself. (aka, if you want it to give to 25 food, set it to give 5 food per X and then tell it that X is 5.) Either way, I can't imagine that this rises to the level where G would be unwilling to use the idea on that basis alone.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Personally I don’t feel that tradition is imbalanced as-is. In fact policies feel like they’re in a really good place right now. Ideologies need work but not policies.
    G
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I didn't want to significantly make tradition stronger or weaker, just change the consistency. 4 to 6 pop is a very strong opening, anything else is kind of slow compared to Progress or Authority.
     
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree, I do think a smoothing of the power curve would be useful. That said, its not a high priority for me right now, I don't think the balance is so bad that this "needs" to happen. Its more of a nice to have.
     
  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    If we do keep the weaker CS trading, than I think its worth extending the trade confederacy bonus to also include CS. Otherwise, there is almost never a time I would make a TR to a CS, when the regular TRs to other civs are going to be so much more lucrative.
     

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