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Going for Gold: Policies

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 20, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 3, 2018.
  1. Yes

    46.7%
  2. No

    53.3%
  1. corps_of_discovery

    corps_of_discovery Chieftain

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    Wow, that CV breakdown was thorough.

    What I'm hearing from these various threads is that (1) the influence curve should be adjusted so that tourism/influence is relevant before the modern era, (2) there should be some ancillary benefits to tourism that make tourism worthwhile, (3) artistry isn't lacking in yields per se, but could use some punching up to become more dynamic.

    I've brainstormed a bunch of ideas below. I haven't carefully thought through any of them for balance or feasibility, and many of these suggestions present more radical changes than are likely to be adopted at this point, but hopefully some of them will be useful.

    Some ideas for reworking Artistry policies:
    • Gain WC votes based on cultural influence. PDan suggested this in the other thread - if it's tied to an Artistry policy it would incentive taking Artistry and prevent Statecraft from becoming OP. Scaling the number of votes with map size would keep things in balance. Maybe something like "gain votes proportional to the number of other civs for which your cultural influence level is at least familiar". Something like 1 vote per 20% of civs influenced feels fairly balanced.
    • Double theming bonuses from great works
    • Raise the cap on the number of allowed guilds on empire by +1
    • Trade route bonuses that benefit you and incentivize other civs to send trade routes to your cities. For example, foreign trade routes to any of your cities produce +2 culture for the trade route owner, and +5% great person rate in (your) target city (capped at 15% total).
    • Diplomatic missions to CS generate additional yields (e.g. golden age points, culture, tourism - something thematically appropriate)
    • Spies can be station in city states as thieves with a chance to "steal" (i.e. produce) great works.

    Some ideas for additional bonuses to tourism that everyone would get:
    • Diplomatic modifier based on influence level. Balancing this bonus to be similar to the shared religion diplomatic bonus would be a decent place to start.
    • Foreign units fighting in your territory have diminished combat effectiveness based on your cultural influence level.
    • War weariness increases faster for enemy civs based on cultural influence level
    • Tourism acts like religious pressure, or gain a tourism bonus modifier based on proximity of your capitals. It makes sense to be culturally influential over your immediate neighbors - look how many east Asian cultures borrowed from China, or how Greek and Roman culture still influence European culture today.
    It seems reasonable that culturally similar civilizations would be more predisposed to be friendly and that their soldiers wouldn't want to fight yours if they consider you to be all from the same cultural tribe. So if you're generating a lot of early tourism, it will keep your neighbors happy and help keep you safe, incentivizing the "soft diplomacy" I mentioned in an earlier comment.
     
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  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I won tourism with progress-artistry-imperialism-autocracy last week as Polynesia. Artistry can support any culture-heavy strategy well, in this example I reached ideologies while the AI were only around 16 policies.

    If artistry creates a situation where you are in golden age, but otherwise wouldn't be, it's +30% culture, not +10%, so this would be 186 higher than your estimate.

    When you consider baths or the culture process it gets higher too.
     
  3. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    Apologies to all for my misunderstanding of the science aspect; I was interpreting it wrong while half-asleep this morning -- the turkey will hopefully not do the same here -- thinking that each owned city yielded only 1 science. I will edit the post to read +1 :c5goldenage: / :c5science: / :tourism: per city for every Artistry policy unlocked, thus all my other tweaks will appear less menacing for everyone.

    Thank you as well to Stalker for showing that data, though he will still be whipped naked through the streets at midday. Though I do believe my changes would be influential, positive, and most importantly fun, it seems the main issue is indeed the fact that tourism is so reliant on tech and means practically nothing until the final stretch, despite having to focus it the earliest/longest without diversion comparative to any other VC. On that note, is there even any point in taking Stupas over the other buildings?
    Although playing on King, I always edit difficulty settings so the AI makes the best decisions possible, like Immortal / Deity AI; my last game was actually a nail-biter where I tried Milae's difficulty mod, making the game even harder than usual. To be honest though, I've never been a big fan in general of the gameyness involved with open borders / archeologists. The entire motivation for this post was initially going to be based on proposing the ability for Artistry finishers to excavate hidden sites without an open borders agreement (there are many games with several hidden sites left due to a lack of border sharing), but I digressed into other ideas.
    Perhaps I was a bit harsh initially on the cutie patootie science (tourism is a hell of a drug, and those suitcases can smuggle in a lot...), but I've addressed my misunderstanding above, and I assure you I'm not narrowing it down, I'm just attempting to make it more effective at what it's fundamentally supposed to achieve. I, too, am a proponent for viability in policy variance, but that doesn't change the fact that Artistry is the tourism / CV tree, just as Rationalism is the SV tree, or Statecraft the DV tree, etc. Despite the title of 'cultural victory', you don't actually win via those yields (of course, culture indirectly drives a CV, but nonetheless), and it is specifically the tourism yield required, which is represented exactly one time in the entire Artistry tree (+4 on Universities from "Heritage").
    So by that reasoning, is Imperialism not tailored for the strategy of wide conqueror, like a DLC trying to supplement Authority? Like I mentioned to the poster above, of course I want all trees to be viable in certain situations, but Artistry should still bring the most value for tall peaceful -- it's supposed to be the damn tourism tree! Regardless, now that I've addressed the science brain-fart, I'm sure most of the debate can be put to rest; artistic warmongers can breathe easy knowing that nowhere in my tweaks did I touch happiness, so that they may continue to paint their battlefields red, literally.
    I'm aware of the qualms regarding Artistry unlocking writers, and I'd foreseen this being unpopular despite how thematic and unique it would be, but I think people are overestimating this, and there would still be apparent pros and cons (Fealty's defensive/religious bonuses, and Statecraft's spy/science/trade buffs are still not easy things to overlook for a lot of warmongers or traditional tall civs). Ultimately though, if faith buying writers is the be-all end-all, then maybe they need a nerf similar to how the GS was recently brought down a peg; they are arguably the most impactful GP, so I understand the skepticism. This was never a hill to die on, but I just think it would really differentiate Artistry and result in more fun.
    Is 10-20 extra culture per-turn (assuming you construct 5-10 Museums) suddenly going to make Artistry OP? No. Is it a harmless, sensible, fun and thematic addition? Yes.

    IMO, it makes little sense to have the policy currently buff Amphitheaters (writers), Opera Houses (musicians), but not include Museums (artists). Add this aspect while moving the open borders bonus to the opener, where it's more consequential, and then I think the tree looks in a better spot.
     
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  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't agree that artistry is fundamentally only supposed to achieve a cultural victory.

    If playing for a science win condition there is no clearly best middle tree (you don't have to choose between Rationalism and Artistry, you can take both). Artistry is a viable choice for both. War-mongering artistry can work quite well too. Also Fealty is quite viable for tourism strategies.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    It does give a +1 happiness, but I generally agree. Once I determined that early game tourism was effectively a buff of wind in a hurricane, I gave up on the stupa.
     
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  6. Ranslee

    Ranslee Chieftain

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    One thing missing in your analysis is that GM's value depends on your tourism output, and it's something you kind of build throughout the game, even with radio/internet bonuses. The modifiers need some base value to work off of.

    As for making older GWs give better yields, it sounds like a great idea, but it doesn't work with how trading GWs works at the moment; you could swap your modern writing for a classical writing at no cost and full benefits.
     
  7. Grassland Farm

    Grassland Farm Warlord

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    Yeah, feels to me that the Stupa is ultimately more of a happiness/golden age source than a "I want to do a tourism win" option.
     
  8. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    For the sake of game balance and fun, I would hope that CV is viable while utilizing Fealty's buffs to shared religion, or Statecraft's tourism from CS TR completion -- I never stated that I want Artistry tailored to only achieve CV -- but there will obviously be trees that naturally augment certain styles better than others, and it's about maximizing the tree's potential in connection with the most relevant VC, tourism in the case of Artistry. My tweaks, though small, would slightly boost the efficacy without really disturbing the tree's current layout, because as of now I don't think there's enough substance to justify labeling Artistry as the tourism tree (there's no denying, that is its intended foundation, just as Rationalism is the science tree, Statecraft the diplo tree, etc.) Although I'd like to see my proposed buff implemented, ultimately my gripe comes down to CV's general logistics, outlined in the linked posts from the previous page. I see Stalker has also created a new poll revolving round tourism's lack of impact, and the early results seem to only fortify my argument. I will now shift my focus and attention onto tourism's overall value, which is evidently the root of the issue.

    Also, I'll disagree that there's no best middle tree for SV; Stalker's data would suggest Statecraft brings the most value.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I am directly denying that tourism is the intended foundation of artistry. I hope the Great Leader has mercy on me.

    His analysis suggests that Statecraft brings the most raw per turn science. That's only one part of a science victory, and a relatively small part at that.
     
  10. stii

    stii King

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    Artistry seems like the culture tree, which isn't quite the same as the cultural victory tree.

    Most of the non super late game tourism seems to come from religion and fealty is kind of the religion tree. Which is a bit simplistic but you want things from both trees.
     
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  11. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

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    If Artistry isn't the tree for CV then something is very wrong!
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Why?

    Artistry is a good choice for a CV, but it's not the only choice. Fealty + certain religious beliefs can generate a lot of tourism as an example. I think having more than one option here is really good design.
     
  13. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Artistry is fine. People kvetch about the various mid-game trees (some even opt for Progress - Authority instead of Fealty, Statecraft, or Artistry), but Artistry is the strongest policy tree for culture / science / golden ages, i.e., the key to snowballing.

    Cultural Victories, like Domination Victories, suffer from the key limitation that the AI can counter it by having a runaway AI. Same thing for DV. I'd say most of my games end through science victory simply because its a quicker win condition. Yes, some games I could win faster in turn count through domination, but the overall time required for the game would be much greater.
     
  14. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

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    I guess I misunderstood, I thought you meant Artistry isn't meant for CV in that it is bad at CV.

    Edit:
    But I do think artistry needs to be the best tree at CV, if for example Fealty is better at CV then what's the point to artistry when Fealty also gives you religious bonuses?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  15. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    Yes, I've already acknowledged how culture indirectly drives a CV, and that's great to an extent, except the problem is that culture isn't the yield needed to achieve a VC -- tourism is. Ironically, culture is the yield needed to simultaneously help defend against an opposing CV...
    So you would just as well deny that science is the intended foundation of Progress/Rationalism? Or conquest the foundation of Authority/Imperialism? You shall pay for this, in time...
    I don't want Artistry to be the only choice, and I've already shared my affinity for policy variation being viable, but Artistry objectively needs to be the best choice. Why do the other 3 VC's have a dedicated tree(s) (multiple, in the case of SV and DomV) in which they directly associate and align with -- trees where we can objectively say picking X is better than Y 90% of the time for condition Z -- yet there's reluctance for Artistry to be dubbed the tourism tree, and debate that it shouldn't inherently be the best for achieving tall CV. I just don't understand it. What did CV ever do to any of y'all?

    I will cease discussion here for now until the new version is released, as I've exhausted all of my arguments, but know that Supreme Leader will not fall short in his quest to achieve victory for Best Korea through the awesome power of his culture. His civilization's greatness -- the magnificence of his monuments and the power of his artists -- will astound the world!
    The issue I have is that none of those things are the yield you specifically need to win the game. I want more general agency with tourism yields directly, especially since it's arguably the easiest VC to delay/shutdown.
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Do people find progress best for science victories?

    I find all three ancient eras are options, but if I really had to rank them I'd put tradition first and progress last (I realize authority has no direct science but I still it just overall puts in you in a good position). Then the middle tree is flexible I think the best option just comes down to personal preference, I like great people and golden ages but there are plenty of great players who'll go for spreading religion or world congress control instead. The only decision that's strongly pushed is rationalism. I think the ideologies are fairly flexible too. Freedom might be a little weaker overall but the spaceship investment ability is still amazing.

    I think we as a community have done a good job creating multiple roughly equal paths for science (and generally the other win conditions too).
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Before the GS nerf I might have seen it, but I do think that nerf put Progress in a better light, as the increase in GS from Tradition doesn't matter as much. Authority beating Progress? Again I am not the biggest warmonger, but 3 science in every city turn after turn after turn (that is also subject to city multipliers) is a steep mountain to climb. Sure if you kill hordes of units all the time I guess it would beat it, but you do have to do quite a bit of warring to match that mountain.
     
  18. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Authority's production bonuses and free conscription units means more hammers for councils/libraries or for the unlocked buildings. I feel like authority can beeline and spam temples and baths more reliably.
    Tech level also reduces happiness which authority can handle a bit better in the early game.
     
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  19. stii

    stii King

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    I think progress would be best for science if it was on the same level as the others but it is so weak that it just isn't currently. There is also a pretty big issue even discussing it was it scales very different on different difficulties.

    On deity killing one unit per turn gives you the same science as 6-8 cities at 3 science per city. and while you won't always be fighting when you are you should be killing multiple units. But on king the AI will have far less units so it will generate far less.
     
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  20. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

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    For me on Deity the problem is that unless I'm playing with a strong early warmonger civ or a strong cultural civ, I can't afford to go Authority because I'll fall behind way too much in the early game, so I have to choose between Tradition and Progress. I'm not sure how you guys manage to make Authority work with civs such as Indonesia playing against AIs such as Ethiopia, Songhai etc., but I just can't do it, I need to stay defensive until the Medieval era when I can catch up in tech before Gunpowder comes online for the AI.

    And when it comes to Progress/Tradition, they're quite close for many civs (with the exception of the likes of Arabia).
     

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