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Going for Gold: Promotions

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 18, 2018.

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Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jul 2, 2018.
  1. Yes

    58.3%
  2. No

    41.7%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

    This thread will debate promotions.

    The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

    Important Notes:

    1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
    2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
    3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
    4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
     
  2. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Chieftain

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    Do people use the Charge ("Sword +" icon), Formation (arrows icon) and Ambush (missiles) promotions?

    I don't know about others, but I find the real prize are the level 4 promotions (March / Blitz), so I tend to focus on the paths that lead to those, and neglect the above - which might mean they could use a small buff.
     
  3. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

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    I think I've used Charge on some games. Not sure if it was the best choice, but it was usefull. Never took the two other ones.
     
  4. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Charge is very powerful. I like it.
     
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  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Agreed
     
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  6. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    Promotions are balanced I'd say. The only ones that are not very much so are Dojo promos and especially Kris promos (most Kris are close to useless or unnoticeable, then there's two super powerful ones and one decent) but they're intended to be so so it's okay. This lack of balance only adds flavour to Kris Swordsman and Japanese melee troops and makes you appreciate the ones with certain promos more.

    Charge's very strong, if there's any damage on someone a guy with it hits like a truck. It's super strong. Formation is the anti-mounted promo, right? I took it when my enemies were spamming too much horsies, so it's situational. Ambush is the +XX% flank damage or which one? I only look at icons and description and your "how it looks" doesn't help. Either way, if it's the +XX% flank damage then it's admittedly pretty bad. I don't take it over just Shock or Drill or Medic or Almost-Anything which work all the time and don't require like 3 people to surround a foe to get any noticeable results.
     
  7. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Chieftain

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    You can look them up but as always I'm not sure the Wiki is 100% up-to-date and accurate.
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I usually break off the promotion line in mounted units and get charge II at lvl 5. It’s more raw damage than other promotion lines, and very flexible.

    I think the naval melee lvl 4 promotions could use a bit of sprucing up:
    • gloryhound (100% damage as gold to cities)
      • Question: How many times do you hit cities with your melee ships?
      • Answer: Not enough to make this promotion pay dividends.
      • Maybe give gold on kills, or give even more bonus vs cities. It’s just not feasible to pick this promotion.
    • pincer (50% flanking bonus),
      • Utter garbage. Flanking is easier to do in naval, but this is not even close to strong enough. Land melee can get 100% which also gives them enemy roads. It should be 100%
    • slipstream (ZOC ignoring) promotion.
      • naval fights are often so open, and I usually have movement to spare. It’s situationally useful when pinned on a coast, but not worth burning an entire level for. maybe give it +1 move as well?
      • If +1 move is added, then I’d also recommend removing the flat +1 move promotion unlocked at 2nd tier
     
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Actually, naval promotions is where I prefer to start level 1 promotions after I get level 3 of one branch and the extra range or double shoot.

    EDIT. Extra range, no longer, since it's given for free later.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  10. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Yeah I wasn't even thinking about naval promotions. Those still feel very lackluster, especially on melee units. I'm going to change my vote to a no for that reason.
     
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I will disagree on pincer. Naval flanking is not more common....it is way way way more common.

    Gets 4 ships around a unit is easy to do in many cases, 3 is practically a default.

    The pincer bonus is quite strong
     
  12. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Warlord

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    I forgot about naval promotions also counting for the thread. Gloryhounds was awesome back when Epic didn't have scaled XP costs because you could easily get it on triremes, now it takes too long and by the time it's available, they're usually Caraeeveels and everyone who matters has cities with walls and castles. It was easy to have a Trireme more than pay for itself by being a bully, now it's a thing of the past for non-Danes who get something like it for free. If it at least had +X% attack power against cities, it'd maybe be nice again. Slipstream has it's uses but you need +movement before it so it's more likely to pay off. Putting that unit in a place that means the enemy's not getting away easily is nice, or just moving in a way that means another unit can attack it that otherwise wouldn't find that spot. Rare cases, but it's useful. Pincer usually underwhelms me, though.
     
  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    My proposed fixes:

    Naval Ranged Line
    • Remove +1 Range promotion from Naval ranged line, and set base range of Cruisers and Battleships to 2.
      • If a human or AI picks that promotion on a highly promoted naval ranged unit, then they have been tricked into sinking a promotion on something they could have just gotten later. It's underhanded, and feels like some sort of punishment for not having memorized the promotion line for newbies.
    • Remove +1 movement from tier 2 naval ranged promotion line
    • Add +1 movement to Slipstream promotion
    • New promotion unlocked with Targetting III: 'Bomb Ketch' (+35% vs land units)
    Melee Melee Line
    • Gloryhound: +50% vs cities and 100% damage as gold
    • Pincer: +100% to flanking bonus
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  14. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I really like the ranged line, though Bomb Ketch seems less interesting than I would like.

    The melee like you proposed is a big dislike from me. My idea:

    • Gloryhound: Unit takes 75% less damage from cities and gains 100% damage as gold.
    • Pincer: +25% to flanking and earn gold when killing a unit.
    The problem with melee ships is that they just get creamed by cities mid-late game. Gloryhounds would leave a ship vulnerable to units, but actually able to attack lone cities well. Meanwhile Pincer just feels too straightforward. Almost no tier 4 promotions do the same thing as their leadup promotions. Drill leads to double attack and big defense. Shock leads to march. (and overwhelm, but there's more options) Accuracy leads to range, barrage leads to logistics.

    Meanwhile you get two straightforward promotion paths with melee sea units, and one of them has almost exactly the same promotion you've been taking as a capstone while the other doesn't work well at all. (Though Gloryhounds is interesting.)

    I think we can do better than straight number buffs. I'd also like to see more promotions, period, but I thing @Gazebo has said he doesn't want more promotions for naval units for some reason. Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The range promotion on cruisers and battleships was specifically put in to combat the abuses of range 3 ships. It was a great change, no need to go back.

    The movement change to slipstream works for me.

    Gloryhound: +50% may be too much, but adding some city damage makes sense to me.

    Pincer: Check me on this, but you get 15% for each unit flanking with you I believe. So flanking with 3 other ships, you gain 45% for flanking. Current promotion would then provide 22.5% more CS. With your change, it would provide 45% CS. I think that a single promotion that provides +45% CS is a bit too strong. I could maybe see 75%
     
  16. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    He said to remove the range promotion altogether, and I agree. If you pick the range promotion right now you're hurting yourself, and it hurts the whole path and balance between trees.

    The existence of the promotion is intuitive and clearly a remnant of the old system. We would never ever ever design the system with a promotion that stops working partway through the game, so we shouldn't accept it being like this due to (good) changes.
     
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Chieftain

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    I actually got that promotion on THREE galleys in my current game. It amkes a huge difference for them. But I do see what you mean. I don't think it's a big deal either way.
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    The Coastal raider line already gives a cumulative 60% damage reduction from cities. Consider that a Denmark player gets 85% damage reduction on cities from cumulative promotions already. Your proposal would be a cumulative 135% damage reduction from cities, or 160% for Denmark. This is simply not a solution
    +50% is the same as the city assault bonus that land units get at tier 2. In my opinion 50% seems perfectly acceptable, but considering that Coastal raider line (1,2,3) gives a cumulative +60% vs cities, maybe a +40% bonus vs cities for a total of 100% is preferable?
    You are misunderstanding me. I am suggesting that the range promotion be eliminated entirely. There is no point in having the promotion if it is given to Cruisers for free. If you pick it on a galleass or frigate then you got suckered. Just remove the promotion from naval ranged units entirely, and put the base range on cruisers and battleships.
    This requires 3 other ships though. Do you not think that a promotion which relies on coordination should give far more than a standard steroid? a 30% bonus to certain domains is a very normal tier 4 promotion. I don't see how a heavilly situational bonus spiking higher than that isn't completely within acceptable parameters

    Your argument also ignores that there are a ton of 100% bonuses to flanking already in-game, and no one seems to complain about them.
    Hunnic UA - Coercion promotion (100% flanking, unit conversion on kill)
    Overrun promotion (100% flanking)
    Raider promotion (100% flanking, can use enemy roads, 50% damage on cities converted to gold)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I agree with removing the range promotion entirely. Replace it with the Incursor promotion (+15% RCS while in enemy territory).

    Move slipstream to naval melee, as tier 4 of flanking promotions.
    Move pincer to ranged melee, but being +30% RCS against a unit that has received damage this turn.

    Change Gloryhound to 'Can move after attack & +20% (scaling) HP damage pillaged as gold (cities and units)'.

    Incursor fits with ranged naval against cities, since they are most likely in enemy territory. Slipstream is nicer in melee units, where they can use it to finish off wounded units in retreat. Pincer in ranged naval is almost granted extra damage, just don't hit first with this unit, which goes well with the other promotions that do more damage to units under 50% HP. Attack and move works for the naval melee specialized in cities, for they can rotate (and probably heal), and gaining gold from other units makes them useful when not fighting cities.
     
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  20. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I actually like this the best I've heard yet and more than my own. Maybe need to make pincer +25% vs wounded to avoid new code. Also Incursor should probably be +25 RCS at leat being a situational T4 policy.
     

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