Going for Gold: Promotions

[Enrico Swagolo]

No, they get regular old supply and vanguard.

Thta's weird, so there's three promos doing the same thing - Supply, the thing from World Congress winning (free supply everywhere but no +5 HP heal), and Coastal Siege. All allow to heal outside of the borders as a primary encouragement, and one purely that. AI Netherlands taking Coastal Siege for their Beggars gain only a part of the whole, but does AI know of the happening

 

[ElliotS]

So they get Naval Siege (Supply) and Vanguard? Nice, can't wait to break into some cities with them with that massive +150% CS against cities, that'll be fun.

I mean as I mentioned, the bonuses need to be really, really high to make melee ships attacking cities worthwhile. Also later defensive buildings on coastal cities are looking really good in this case lol.

The

V3:

The reinforcement line looks great, but I also like the name Dreadnaught better.

The boarding party line looks worse. I can't see myself picking it very often if at all.

Also is a promotion that reduces available movement the next turn possible? That would be a great addition to boarding party line and really help chase down stragglers.

 

[pineappledan]

Cover I and II, and Blockade gives 50% reduction in ranged attacks? so 80% damage reduction from ranged is possible? Yikes.

 

[TwoPodRay]

@Gazebo
What is the rationale behind +HP vs. % defense? They’re essentially the same with respect to how much damage can be taken but +HP drastically changes healing.

Also, I can’t remember how much damage a nuke or guided missile does, but would either defense or HP affect survivability vs. these?

 

[Gazebo]

I mean as I mentioned, the bonuses need to be really, really high to make melee ships attacking cities worthwhile. Also later defensive buildings on coastal cities are looking really good in this case lol.

The


The reinforcement line looks great, but I also like the name Dreadnaught better.

The boarding party line looks worse. I can't see myself picking it very often if at all.

Also is a promotion that reduces available movement the next turn possible? That would be a great addition to boarding party line and really help chase down stragglers.

Dread naught, it will be called Dreadnought in production. And no you can't sap movement as movement is refreshed at the start of a turn (and there's no trigger code to carry over negative movement).

Cover I and II, and Blockade gives 50% reduction in ranged attacks? so 80% damage reduction from ranged is possible? Yikes.

Yep.

@Gazebo
What is the rationale behind +HP vs. % defense? They’re essentially the same with respect to how much damage can be taken but +HP drastically changes healing.

Also, I can’t remember how much damage a nuke or guided missile does, but would either defense or HP affect survivability vs. these?

No, a unit is hit for its max HP for a nuke.

Raising max HP has some unique advantages, especially with regards to the <=50% health promotion.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

I have a question. What happens when a unit promotes into the +25 HP promotion? Does the HP ratio stay the same (adding HP)? Is +25 HP added (in addition to the +10)? Or does no additional change happen?

Like if I'm promoting my Quinques through exploration, what happens?

 

[tu_79]

V3:

Reinforcement I +10% CS. +25 HP.
    Cover I
    Cover II
Reinforcement II +10% CS. +25 HP.
    Naval Siege - +50% city damage, can heal in non-friendly territory
    Breacher - +10% Defense per adjacent enemy naval unit, 10 AOE damage on kill.
    Press Gangs - Pillage without move - pillaging fully heals unit
Reinforcement III +10% CS. +25 HP.
    Blockade - steal 100% of damage as gold versus cities - 50% defense against ranged attacks
    Vanguard - 100% CS versus cities, damage from cities -50%
    Dauntless - Damage -5; CS +10 HP healed per turn when healing.
 
Boarding Party I +10% CS. +10% CS versus units below 50% hit points.
    Naval Sentry I - +1 move/sight
    Naval Sentry II - +1 move/sight
Boarding Party II +10% CS. +15% CS versus units below 50% hit points.
    Encirclement - +10% Attack per adjacent friendly naval unit. +10 HP when you defeat an enemy.
    Piracy - 20% to withdraw from melee - 100% CS gained as gold on kills.
    Medic I
    Medic II
Boarding Party III  +10% CS. +20% CS versus units below 50% hit points
    Pincer - Ignore ZOC, 50% flank bonus
    Blitz
    Supply

This looks solid and fun. It will take a while until we learn it.
Maybe other more savvy players can say if the numbers are right. ElliotS seems to disagree on their values.

 

[pineappledan]

@Gazebo, per these changes, could the great lighthouse’s free promotion be changed to naval sentry I? That would keep the ship movement from getting too out of control

 

[Stalker0]

Lets dig in again, my main comments noted with "--", with a little extra at the end.

V3:

--In general I too share the fear that +25 HP is too high. But I'm willing to test it at that value.

Reinforcement I +10% CS. +25 HP.
Cover I
Cover II
Reinforcement II +10% CS. +25 HP.
Naval Siege - +50% city damage, can heal in non-friendly territory
Breacher - +10% Defense per adjacent enemy naval unit, 10 AOE damage on kill.
--I'm not going to argue too strongly on this one, I just genuinely don't know what niche or historical factor this is supposed to model. With siege weapons, splash damage made lots of sense. With melee ships, not sure what the point is. I don't think it will be OP from initial look.
Press Gangs - Pillage without move - pillaging fully heals unit
--When I read V2 I had a similar thought, but I think this is just way too strong in this line which is why I didn't suggest it. A 175 HP ship with Dauntless is already super hard to kill. But now it can suddenly heal 160 damage again and again from a few fishing areas. That is super strong. I still like the idea of folding this into Piracy and dropping the melee withdraw, but either way I think its better on the boarding party side.

Reinforcement III +10% CS. +25 HP.
Blockade - steal 100% of damage as gold versus cities - 50% defense against ranged attacks
--This one feels more suited to Boarding Party since we are fitting it with the "pirate" theme.
Vanguard - 100% CS versus cities, damage from cities -50%
Dauntless - Damage -5; CS +10 HP healed per turn when healing.
--Wow, this one is so strong. In human hands, in your own lands (so you can heal), I honestly don't know if this unit will ever die. I think the last version was fine just needed to be Tier IV.

Boarding Party I +10% CS. +10% CS versus units below 50% hit points.
Naval Sentry I - +1 move/sight
Naval Sentry II - +1 move/sight
Boarding Party II +10% CS. +15% CS versus units below 50% hit points.
Encirclement - +10% Attack per adjacent friendly naval unit. +10 HP when you defeat an enemy.
--Similar to Breacher, I'm not sure what this one is trying to accomplish per say. Its a strong promotion, stronger than BP III in most cases. But I still see the Reinforcement line as the main combat line anyway.

Piracy - 20% to withdraw from melee - 100% CS gained as gold on kills.
--Though I like the idea of merging this with press gangs, I will say that melee withdraw is a good mechanic to put into this line imo.
Medic I
Medic II
Boarding Party III +10% CS. +20% CS versus units below 50% hit points
Pincer - Ignore ZOC, 50% flank bonus
Blitz
Supply[/CODE]

I know that the supply note in BP was in error, but if we did want to offer self healing on both sides (but in a different thematic way), you could combine Medic and Supply. This creates the concept of the Refuel or Supply ship that is needed for flotillas. It also reduces the weirdness of a ship that can help other ships heal but can't heal itself.

Refuel Ship: -20% CS. Can heal in non-friendly territory. When adjacent units heal, they heal +5 damage.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo, per these changes, could the great lighthouse’s free promotion be changed to naval sentry I? That would keep the ship movement from getting too out of control

Prolly. Sure. Though it would give all ships ranged and melee access to naval sentry II. I can fix that tho.

G

 

[Gazebo]

Lets dig in again.



I know that the supply note in BP was in error, but if we did want to offer self healing on both sides (but in a different thematic way), you could combine Medic and Supply. This creates the concept of the Refuel or Supply ship that is needed for flotillas. It also reduces the weirdness of a ship that can help other ships heal but can't heal itself.

Refuel Ship: -20% CS. Can heal in non-friendly territory. When adjacent units heal, they heal +5 damage.

Honestly I'll probably just leave supply as a T4 option for ships on that side, should they want it.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Or just give them naval sentry 2, since that one is identical and doesn’t lead to anything

Could we call it something better? Like “navigator”?

 

[CrazyG]

Prolly. Sure. Though it would give all ships ranged and melee access to naval sentry II. I can fix that tho.

G

So it gives naval sentry II?

 

[Gazebo]

Or just give them naval sentry 2, since that one is identical and doesn’t lead to anything

Could we call it something better? Like “navigator”?

Yeah, these are all pre-production names. I like navigator.

So it gives naval sentry II?

I'll just make it have an extra prereq no biggie.

 

[pineappledan]

I know I havent tested either, but the reinforcement line just seems way better on paper.

A ship, at level 6, could have +75HP, take 5 less damage, +30%CS, +50%vs cities, and heal 25hp every turn. Boarding party doesn't have an answer for that; it's a bit more utility, but a well-promoted reinforcement navy just looks incredibly solid.

I'm looking forward to Carthage rushing an early quinquereme, hitting level 7 on it, and just hulking out on another civ

 

[chicorbeef]

I know I havent tested either, but the reinforcement line just seems way better on paper.

A ship, at level 6, could have +75HP, take 5 less damage, +30%CS, +50%vs cities, and heal 25hp every turn. Boarding party doesn't have an answer for that; it's a bit more utility, but a well-promoted reinforcement navy just looks incredibly solid.

I'm looking forward to Carthage rushing an early quinquereme, hitting level 7 on it, and just hulking out on another civ

Why don't we make it so that there is no automatic heal like March, only manual heal?

 

[Stalker0]

I know I havent tested either, but the reinforcement line just seems way better on paper.

If you go with the notion that BP is designed as the auxiliary line it makes it looks better. Ultimately BP is just getting enough combat bonuses to stick it in with the "real ships" (aka reinforcement). One nice element of reinforcement is that it doesn't dominate BP in combat, it just "outlasts it". That prevents BP ships from just getting sniped and they can hold up against a reinforcement navy for a turn or two before having to run.

BP's job is to specialize into a role....a pirate (piracy), repair ship (medic I/II), or scout (navy sentinel). We also added in the role of "quick reinforcer" again through the navy sentinel block.

In that respect the line is fine....its only when you look at the combat bonus ones (Blitz, Encirclement) that you start scratching your head. These are not "shrapnel rounds" kind of promotion that suddenly makes you really good at a different thing, they just give you more combat....to the inferior combat line. Pincer can be forgiven with the ignore ZOC otherwise I'd put it in the same boat. Supply is ok, but I think its way too high in the tree for what it is.

Edit: Actually changed my mind on blitz. Considering the extra +45% damage on below 50% health (which is 87 hp), a "closer" type ship with blitz is going to be pretty solid.

 

[Gazebo]

I know I havent tested either, but the reinforcement line just seems way better on paper.

A ship, at level 6, could have +75HP, take 5 less damage, +30%CS, +50%vs cities, and heal 25hp every turn. Boarding party doesn't have an answer for that; it's a bit more utility, but a well-promoted reinforcement navy just looks incredibly solid.

I'm looking forward to Carthage rushing an early quinquereme, hitting level 7 on it, and just hulking out on another civ

If you go with the notion that BP is designed as the auxiliary line it makes it looks better. Ultimately BP is just getting enough combat bonuses to stick it in with the "real ships" (aka reinforcement). One nice element of reinforcement is that it doesn't dominate BP in combat, it just "outlasts it". That prevents BP ships from just getting sniped and they can hold up against a reinforcement navy for a turn or two before having to run.

BP's job is to specialize into a role....a pirate (piracy), repair ship (medic I/II), or scout (navy sentinel). We also added in the role of "quick reinforcer" again through the navy sentinel block.

In that respect the line is fine....its only when you look at the combat bonus ones (Blitz, Encirclement) that you start scratching your head. These are not "shrapnel rounds" kind of promotion that suddenly makes you really good at a different thing, they just give you more combat....to the inferior combat line. Pincer can be forgiven with the ignore ZOC otherwise I'd put it in the same boat. Supply is ok, but I think its way too high in the tree for what it is.

Small typo fix - BP should be 10/15/20% CS, 10/15/20% v. units <= 50HP. Not a huge change, but it does help.

G

 

[Stalker0]

With Blockade and Vanguard would a city do -100% (aka 0) ranged damage, or would that effectively be 75% less ranged city damage?

 

[ElliotS]

With Blockade and Vanguard would a city do -100% (aka 0) ranged damage, or would that effectively be 75% less ranged city damage?

I think it's -100%, but remember the minimum of 10. Regardless a city won't be able to fight up a city-killing speced melee ship on it's own, just like it can't with ranged.