1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Going for Gold: Promotions

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 18, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jul 2, 2018.
  1. Yes

    58.3%
  2. No

    41.7%
  1. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    898
    Coastal land, as per Moai.

    The issue is that any unit you put to ground will get annihilated by inland forces that your navy cannot reach, even if they are at full health before landing (so embarkation defense doesn't matter). Amphibious invasions are essentially pointless because of this. You'd be better off wearing down a city and not bothering with the Amphibious promotion at all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    3,830
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    to which myself and others have argued.... yes. Amphibious invasions are hard. Historically and in the game. Congrats. No it’s not a problem. No there’s nothing in need of fixing. This is precisely why continents maps are more interesting (and I would argue balanced) than Pangea maps.
     
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,952
    This is a good summary of my argument.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,952
    My goal is not to make amphibious invasions "easy" but to make them "more viable"....both for the human and AI. This change would not suddenly make water invasions trivial...honestly even with this change I don't know if it would be enough to cause a shift.

    Right now amphibious landings are meat grinders. The human can't afford the attrition, and AIs aren't smart enough to do it right...and will often lose 3x as many units as compared to a traditional assault (no exaggeration).

    I thought a change to this promotion might help a bit, and make the promotion more enticing at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,354
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Which is what I do anyway. I don't give amphibious to my units unless I have lots of rivers since I need my early to mid game army useful in my starting continent.

    I can't give it to my units just before an invasion, so it is my navy duty to capture a city and secure its sides. Works better for isthmus.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    3,830
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Except now there's just this promotion that is so niche in its use that unless you're island-hopping on an archipelago map, were 4/5 tiles are coastal, then it's useless for everything except getting "off the beaches". You only have to gain a foothold once in a game, and that's usually most easily done by allying a city-state on the other continent and then loading it with units, then opening a second front elsewhere on the continent. You're advocating for a bonus that is such an edge-case for its intended use that it's circumstantial use -- a bonus when you're already on the continent, but just happen to be hugging the coast, or you're on a map with many small islands -- is more likely to be its main draw.
     
  7. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    898
    It's useful in the same situation that Amphibious is already purporting to be useful in.

    A player takes amphibious because he's expecting to be able to do amphibious invasions...then finds out he can't do amphibious invasions with it. Eventually he decides that amphibious invasions aren't a thing in this game and the only reason to take Amphibious is for the river bonus.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,952
    So it sounds like you agree that amphibious is too niche as is? This change is purely a buff to amphibious, it previous uses remain intact. So this statement suggests you think amphibious is already too niche as is.
     
  9. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    898
    Buffing a current promotion with a bonus to help with what the promotion is already purporting to do doesn't make the promotion more niche.

    Amphibious assaults are are only an edge case for this promotion because the current naval invasion bonus doesn't actually help with naval invasions.
     
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    3,830
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Ah, I thought you wanted a new amphibious II promotion separate from the current one. I don't take amphibious, personally. The -20% over rivers isn't such a bad hit that I wouldn't prefer a guaranteed +10% from another level of shock/drill instead. As for fighting from embarked, the malus is heavy enough that I'm happy to have amphibious on units in that case, but I don't play archipelagos, and I'm not in that circumstance enough to justify it. Maybe the malus for attacking over rivers could be increased to -30%, so I would feel the hurt for not taking that promotion more?

    I maintain that simply fighting near a coastline happens so often that I don't like the idea of adding a bonus for simply being next to ocean tiles. You were suggesting maybe bonus defense vs ranged when on coast, well that's going to make sieging coastal cities incredibly easy, because cover I/II combined with a constantly activated amphibious promotion bonus, even if it's as low as 15%, will make your melee units nearly impervious. Maybe it cuts both ways, because the city defense can hit you with his boats, but often I have cleared the boats or they simply don't have any. So it just becomes a bonus that makes hammering coastal civs easier and that becomes its main use.
     
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,952
    So just to ensure we are all on the same page, this is the promotion with the changes I have requested:

    Amphibious
    No movement penalty for crossing rivers. Negates the attack penalty for attacking from water or across rivers. Gain +25% Defense when on a coastal (land) tile.

    To your point, just to note. In order to have the unit you described, you would need a Drill II Cover II Amphibious Melee Unit. I would hope a level 5 unit is pretty good at their job. And even then, I just had the honor in the game I just played to watch what happens when Drill I Cover 2 Fusiliers (upgraded from musketeers, so they have Lightning warfare to boot) go into an entrenched position against Logistics Accuracy 3 Musketmen (upgraded from chu-ko-nu). So this is a very similar scenario to an amphibious assault, in which melee units have to push into an entrenced area with lots of ranged bombardment.
    The melee units were SLAUGHTERED. Not "hurt", ripped to pieces. And this was a unit a tech level ahead of the musketman, with cover 2, and had the ability to ignore ZOC so they had more free movement. This was actually a kinder scenario than would have been faced with if they had done an amphibious push. No I really don't think +25% will make the units invincible at all.
     
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,354
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    How about using Danish ability? Gain 2 movement points when disembarking. This allows to either occupy 2 tiles inland or disembark and attack on the same turn. I feel movement is more critical to a successful naval invasion than strength.
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,133
    Location:
    Beijing
    My concern is that this will activate outside of amphibious assaults on a big continent, when just walking along the ocean, which can be pretty common on many map types. Amphibious is already a pretty good promotion.

    A large scale amphibious assault is rare and will always be somewhat difficult. You just need to accommodate that with your plays. I like start by capturing a city state on that continent so I have a foothold.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
    pineappledan likes this.
  14. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    898
    I don't agree that it's common enough that you'd take Amphibious just to walk along the ocean.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,952
    If people feel amphibious is good enough than so be it, though I wouldn't say such invasions are rare. Maybe its because I play continents as default, but in any game that I am not going for CV (aka super passive play) I will attempt one invasion of another landmass. As others have mentioned though, that is mainly naval focused because an actual push on land is too suicidal.
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,133
    Location:
    Beijing
    I play continents too and I invade other continents. You just have to start by controlling a city that navy can take entirely or mostly by itself. The end of a peninsula or a city state work well. Build up a little bit of land to push from.

    Throwing a bunch of units onto an enemy shore, and letting them get a free turn before you do anything, will be suicide regardless of 25% defense.
     
  17. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    Naval invasions against prepared defensive positions should fail. Naval invasions against prepared defensive positions can succeed but only with overwhelming force or late game units. Naval invasions against prepared defensive positions can succeed but only with overwhelming force or late game units.

    Sometimes its good to attack the runaway leader. Other times, its good to attack a city state and gain a toe hold.
     
  18. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    898
    I guess it's pretty easy to have a prepared defensive position when the AI's territory is covered in units.

    @Stalker0, given what happened to you on your other fronts when you tried the land version of same thing, the issue seems to be that you can't bait the AI into your own defensive position when you're doing a naval invasion (especially when the coast is its own Great Wall effect). Seeing how that seems to be the way to deal with the AI military, CrazyG's probably right in that 25% defense isn't enough. Your melee line got destroyed with Cover II. The equivalent of Cover I isn't going to save them, and while Amphibious and Cover II might, adding 25% to Amphibious on its own still isn't helping it achieve the naval invasion half of its intended purpose.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,952
    I agree, that France game I played really did highlight how little the bonus means compared to focused ranged warfare when you move in to entrenched positions. So even if we did implement it, I don't think it would make naval invasions viable.
     
    vyyt and tu_79 like this.
  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,354
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Naval invasions should have its own thread.

    Do you know what is a foothold? A place where your units can land fast and safely.
    Do we want to create footholds, other than capturing city states? Then allow fast disembarking in tiles where you can apply zone of control.

    But this will only work for surprise attacks.
     

Share This Page