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Going for Gold: Promotions

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 18, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jul 2, 2018.
  1. Yes

    58.3%
  2. No

    41.7%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So are you thinking keep stalwart as is, and replace march with this. Or toss march, replace stalwart with this, and offer it on both lines?
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Keep stalwart replace March
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    So other people don't like march, therefore no one gets it?

    I don't like this. To be frank, march is good (at least if used well), and people are wrong about it. Furthermore, there already exist other promotions you can take if you personally dislike march. That promotion on naval units is extremely strong, land melee are far more impactful than naval melee is.
     
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  4. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    March is fine. It shouldn't be replaced. A handful of players griping about a promotion shouldn't cause a change, it should require a greater consensus. March is good on cavalry and can be effective on infantry as well. It requires an understanding of which units are stronger at which times. Melee units are stronger earlier on. March is fine on them. Besides, could you imagine a dauntless + stalwart unit? That units would be ridiculous in a citadel or fort. March is clearly an offensive promotion for a unit that wants to be able to attack and still heal. Its perfectly fine. There's no need to remove it from the game.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think it's worth toying around with - as I said, the binary nature of the bonus is very difficult to balance.

    G
     
  6. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    Make March heal a fixed 5HP after a turn whether the unit performs an action or not, unaffected by Medic? Drop the defense malus too.
     
  7. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Dauntless will work in the same situations that March does without the situations where it hurts you. The general strategy of staying close to your medics stays the same without being the only viable option.

    And I find it questionable to say that land melee is much more impactful than naval melee considering there's a huge debate going on right now about why land melee is so underused.
     
  8. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    Just to be clear, would this affect Mounted/Armor units? March is a shared promotion and I don't want to see it die for a two lines of units that use it extremely well just because some people are on a make infantry great again crusade.
     
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  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This is fair, march is a good promotion on the mounted line. I assume there is no way to keep march on mounted and use this new "dauntless" on infantry?

    I would also note that stalwart currently lowers damage in general by 4.43 - 7.47 an attack (the effects of a 35% CS increase, in most general cases). So dauntless gives a consistent 5 reduction and the extra healing, honestly it seems like stalwart (which is already a terrific promotion) is getting out classed here.
     
  10. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    I'd rather see a better offensive promotion to replace March, if we really want to go the route of replacing March. The two lines are broken down (both naval and land) into defensive/anti-city and offensive/anti-unit, and I think this should be retained, and would better alleviate some people's issue with infantry melee not being able to advance well. I believe it is possible to designate certain promos as only one line or another, since some promotions are already different depending on unit type. IE: mounted ranged units get March while infantry ranged do not, and infantry melee get City Assault while mounted melee don't. Though disclaimer I haven't looked into it, but I'm pretty sure each promo essentially has unit class tags that could be used to keep march on mounted/armor but not infantry melee.
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    No it won't, you have no clue how to use march, at all. If an important highly promoted unit is at risk of dying on that tile, you don't put it on that tile. March's combat malus should be activating rarely, the extra healing more than makes up for it. March makes units more mobile, it isn't for fortifying and tanking hits. If you want a tanky unit, take stalwart, or cover. Keeping them near medics is not the only viable option, its an oversimplification from someone who rather than try to understand how to use a mechanic well, is demanding it be removed.

    If you don't like march, DON'T PICK IT! I don't like blitz, but other people do, so rather than rework it, I just take different promotions, there are plenty available.

    If Dauntless does what the promotion says, it will also reduce damage from citadels and other sources, and a unit in a city will take 5 less per city on the city (which is a huge deal). This promotion is so much stronger than march is, its pretty much directly than stalwart (it works when attacking too).
    No, this isn't questionable. Land melee is clearly, objectively, obviously far more impactful than naval melee is. Land melee isn't even that underused, they just aren't used in an offensive role that much late in the game. Daunltess won't change that either, it just further encourages fortifying in place.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    FWIW, I’ll cast my vote in favour of not changing March. I remain unconvinced that there is anything wrong with the promotion, it seems some people prefer other promotions over March and therefore think everyone else hates March too.
     
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  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Keep in mind that promotion trees must be kept AI friendly. If you change March for a more thematic promotion that synergizes too much with shock, these units must be used in a very specific way that AI may not be able to do.

    March is basically a defensive promotion for an unit in motion. The penalty to defense was added to prevent the medic+March combo,along with the defense penalty to medic. Combining both promotions makes the unit too vulnerable, at least in theory.

    I also don't think it needs a rework. But if you're adamant, then change the 'heals every turn' to 'heals 5 HP when moving'.
     
  14. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I am curious to know how Dauntless works when a Unit is in a City as the Garrison. That is, if it works at all for them.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So continuing on the discussion of shock based promotions. So for Shock "IV", we generally have 3 options:

    1) March: Already being discussed.
    2) Mobility: Mobility to me is a solid promotion, giving infantry some of the mobility of a mounted unit. Its not for every case but it has its purpose. I think its solid as is.
    3) Overrun: More and more I think overrun is a weak promotion. Lets compare to just taking Drill I from the other line.

    a) Defense: Overrun 0% vs Drill 10%
    b) Offense: Overrun provides 10% more CS if you have a 2 person flanking advantage. With 3 person its 20%. With 1 flank its equivalent to drill, with 0 flanks its worse. And if your attacking a city, drill gives +35%.
    c) Accessibility: Drill can start to open up more promotions, Overrun gives no new access.

    Most of the time, you just don't get flanking enough to warrant overrun imo. It seems that taking drill just gives you a better more general boost to both offense and defense compared to a more niche promotion that can once in a while give you a better bonus.
     
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  16. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Some Shock IV suggestions:
    1) Perhaps a strong flat 25% CS as a Promotion could work (Civ IV's Combat VI), as a compliment to Stalwart.
    2) We can take some of the Naval Melee Promotions.
    3) A Heal on Kill Effect, probably should be the same one as Authority for Balance's sake.
     
  17. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Overrun is pretty bad, over time flanking just becomes a lot less common, especially big flanks like 2 or 3 units. This is probably another reason why people find melee weaker later in the game, they just suck when they don't have flanking bonuses. As an example, a horseman deals about 35 to a skirmisher and takes 25 in return without flanking, he clearly loses a 1v1 battle even if he gets the first hit. With flanking you can get the damage up to 50 or 60 (Songhai can actually deal 100).

    Mobility and march both help you deal more flanking damage anyways, a key use of march is that the unit can move to set up a flank for other units but not attack, thus healing that turn.
     
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  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Why don't we try with a breacher promotion, the same as naval melee?
    +10% attack for every adjacent enemy.

    This ability is better in the late game, so it makes sense to get it at the end of the tree, and then fits into shock theme for aggressive field combat.
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Back when flanking worked differently, each level of shock gave +25% to flanking power, and Overrun gave +100% (4x power).
    So, when Shock was changed to +5%, why was Overrun only changed to +10% (2x power)?

    It seems like all that's needed is to make Overrun give +20%, which puts it back where it used to be w.r.t. the shock line.
     
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  20. SpankmyMetroid

    SpankmyMetroid Warlord

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    Can we talk about splash damage on siege units? It's a really cool concept that helps differentiate siege units from being a bit more than just city busters, and maybe I'm reading it wrong (I also don't remember if Splash 2 improves this) but it can only do that extra damage if the "splashed" units were in range of the original attacking siege unit. Meaning, you'd have to be targeting a unit right next to your catapult to do splash damage to anything (and also presumes that there are enemies to splash 2 tiles away from your unit). If your enemy is next to your siege unit, it's way out of position. They're not front line units by any means. I don't see when you would want your siege units to be in a situation like that, except maybe when in a garrison (but you'd rather have anything else as a garrison really because their combat strength is garbage and will get killed quick). This gets better with the +1 range (especially since splash damage doesn't care about reduced combat strength), but IIRC you need Siege 3 to get +1 range, the opposite branch. Not too synergistic.

    Would they be too powerful if they just did splash damage to all adjacent enemies, regardless of whether or not the splashed units are in range?
     

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