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Going for Gold: Reformation Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 18, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 1, 2018.
  1. Yes

    71.4%
  2. No

    28.6%
  1. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I don't see Jesuit Education needing a nerf. If Faith of the Masses does we can lower the static culture by 1 or 2, but I don't see people taking it very often at all either. I think TtGoG is clearly OP. Even when CrazyG doesn't pick it he thinks it might have been better, and I often feel the same. Even as a warmonger the sheer utility and power of being able to purchase whoever, whenever is amazing. Crusader spirit is good, but when I feel like I have enough of a military lead, TtGoG always wins out.

    I would consider making the faith costs double for great people you don't have via policies.

    That or just have it give a free random great person in your capital every 15 turns. You would get less great people overall, and more importantly having them be random would make it a lot less powerful. That one is probably new code tho.
     
    CppMaster and LukaSlovenia29 like this.
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree, I think people really underestimate the hammer savings and speed that the belief provides. I certainly don't think this belief is at the top of the list, its good but not OP.

    I would also echo if any belief is OP (and I'm not fully convinced it is) it would be TGOG. But I think part of that is its sheer versatility. There is not a single playstyle that doesn't benefit greatly from its use. There may be cases where choosing a different belief is more optimal, but its never a bad one to use.
     
  3. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I'm not saying about nerf. I propose changing the mechanics. It would not be a nerf. Speaking about Masses - i forgot the last time i took that. I don't see a situation where i should: Tourism - take Glory of Sacred; Science - take Jesuit, Diplo - Commandments and One World are at your service, even Domination - you can take Defender or Crusader. When is that magic situation when i want to take Masses? Does anyone know?

    Tourism it is. faith-heavy tourism playstyle. Remember that you get tons of yields for just getting any type of great person
     
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  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think its a belief where you want to shore up your weaknesses instead of pushing your strengths. For example in my current Russia game my science is so far ahead of my culture that I'm actually getting the policy lock on several wonders. I'm a good bit ahead of my rivals in terms of science, so right now having more culture would be of greater benefit. So that's a scenario I may consider it.

    Its not the most attractive belief, but I think there are people that would want to use it.
     
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  5. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Yeah, that's kinda my point. I think TtGoG is the only one that's too powerful.

    I really don't share your opinion one changing the mechanics. I don't really care for a discount on 3 buildings. I'd much rather get extra yields.

    Does Faith of the Masses need a buff? I too have never chosen it, but it culture is a good yield. Maybe make it give 5 :c5culture:/ 2 :tourism: instead of just 5 :c5culture:? That would make it work better for tourism as a wide civ.
     
  6. Aad van het Kalifaat

    Aad van het Kalifaat Chieftain

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    Is there nobody here who considers the 30% combat bonus from Defender of the Faith as being too strong? In the multiplayer games with my friends, we ban that one by default as it is by far the strongest one, considering a snowballing player is impossible to take on when he can easily defend his territory... Not to mention the faith and culture yields from all (!) defense buildings. I'm curious about other people's experiences.
     
  7. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    +1 from me. Just a not - the free random GP is not new code, IIRC, it was the old statecraft finisher (or something very similar).
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    On the other hand you would have all of that faith still remaining for other purposes. Might stack well with things like zealotry.

    Another option is just remove the bonus yields entirely. I mean the GP flexibility and extras you get is already very strong.
     
  9. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Copy-pasting my post from the Enhancer thread.

    I think reformation beliefs are so powerful and spreading religion much harder than it used to be, it should be hard for tall religions to reform & thus catch up with religions that have invested a lot of effort and faith (and possible diplomatic repercussions, costs of open borders etc.) into spreading. But as it stands now, it's fairly simple and straightforward (especially for the human player) by beelining for St. Basil's. I don't think pushing it to a later tech would alleviate that, because we'd simply beeline to that. Also, many reformation beliefs start to shine in the later parts of the game, so there'd be very little lost if one waited for Industrial era to reform via St. Basil's.

    So the more I think about it, the more I'm in favour of removing this from St. Basil's and replacing it with something else. If need be, let's talk about lowering the threshold for normal reformation by a few % points, but I'd remove this OP effect from a wonder.
     
  10. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I mean if you get crusader spirit to counter if he's only at +10%, and if you fight him mostly in neutral territory it's easy. The belief is not OP at all.
    My thing is that I think the bonus yields are irrelevant. I think we could remove them completely and it would still be the best belief. (Less fun, but still.)

    Hitting it in it's strength is harsher, but probably the solution. Also I considered the fact that you would have extra faith and said 15 turns instead of 10 because of it. We could also try 20, but losing the choice would be a huge nerf, so we don't want it to be too long.
     
    Owlbebach likes this.
  11. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Even when a tall/small/insular religion reforms via Basil it's still going to not be benefiting from religion as much as a wide empire that is taking the effort to aggressively spread. There are lots of benefits to shared religion that the tall empire will never get, wide has a much larger faith pool, and the beliefs that typically go along with spreading your religion seem to be stronger than those used by small/insular religions. I don't really think a religion that is spreading needs more carrots and I don't really think an insular religion that isn't spreading needs more punishment.

    I do agree that Basil is a bit of a crutch right now, though, as the only way a non-spreading religion can reform. Not exactly sure what to do about that though.
     
  12. Legen

    Legen King

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    My issue with Faith of the Masses is that the benefits come way later than Jesuit. The latter starts benefitting you as soon as you get Education, while the former only starts benefitting at Acoustics, three tech columns later. Because of that, even when I really want the benefits of this reformation due to infrastructure needs, I end picking something else, often Jesuit or Knowledge. An infrastructure-based belief isn't very attractive if it takes time to come online, as what makes them attractive is usually your urgency to catch up.

    If it could be buffed, I'd include Amphitheaters, but reduce the extra culture per building to 4 :c5culture:. This would total 16 :c5culture: if you build them all in a city.

    About TtGoG, it is powerful not just because of Sainthood. It's also because, unless you're a reckless spreader or a snowballing religious warmonger, you don't have much where to spend your faith. TtGoG provides that with flexibility, and the great people it unlocks have separate faith costs, keeping it low overall.

    i remember that TtGoG had a 15 cooldown when purchasing great people that you didn't unlock through policies, but I think that turned out to be too restrictive. Maybe we could try that again with a different value, like 10 turns or so.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
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  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think it could be debatable. I think it would remain a strong belief absolutely, but its not necessarily head and shoulders above everything else with that change. And it maintains its core concept.
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    On the other hand, this gives you more time to build up your faith...so that by the time it does come online you can build many buildings immediately. So in that respect, it puts you farther ahead of the culture game compared to your peers....assuming roughly equal science levels.

    But if people think it is too weak, I like your suggestion overall.
     
  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    If we change the timing of reformation, it would make faith of the masses better. Currently, I might like the 5 culture more than 5 science, but the science is often coming into play far earlier.
    If jesuit education and faith of the masses don't have yields I pick Glory every time over these two, even if you half the faith costs of the buildings and remove Glory's yields.

    I really think you should strongly consider glory of god anytime you don't have progress, just because faith buying two writers and dropping them for culture bombs puts you so far ahead in social policies.
    Repeat the above argument for rationalism and scientists.
    Repeat the above for Fealty and artist for golden age.

    The other great people are all useful, but those three tend to be the game changers.
     
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  16. Aad van het Kalifaat

    Aad van het Kalifaat Chieftain

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    You may disagree but I'm simply sharing what we've found in multiplayer games; a civ with DotF is almost impossible to bring down. Fighting in neutral territory (assuming there even is neutral territory, which there isn't at some point in the game) does no good in trying to harm a snowballing player. DotF is for defense, and why would the snowballer move his troops out of his territory if the rest is playing catch-up? Also, getting Crusader Spirit to counter it isn't as easy as you make it seem (after all, getting a Reformation belief is quite difficult for a human player) and it is still not as powerful as DotF, which has better yields too (2 faith and 3 culture for every defense building is pretty strong).

    Adding to the discussion above, it's rather imbalanced if a player building Basil can just get a 30% defense bonus and 15 yields per city, on average. Easily outclasses any other wonder.
     
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  17. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    Playing as Austria on the 8/6 patch (Emperor, Standard, Progress/Artistry/Rationalism) I beelined Archaeology to grab as many sites as I could. Prior to building Railroads or Seaports my capital sat around 220-250 production, 6 of my secondary cities were sitting at 110-140 production. A couple production poor cities sat around 85-90 production; those did take 10-11 turns to build Public Schools without investing.

    It was a strong production game (quarry monopoly luxury, fair amount of iron/stone) but didn't strike me as way out of the ordinary. 20 turns for Public Schools sounds insane for anything outside secondary Tradition cities.
     
  18. Legen

    Legen King

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    It's my experience with it. My current game had a situation that seemed perfect for Masses: I needed to improve culture to keep up with the cultural leader and I needed a way to keep up with infrastructure. I also had good faith output because I secured alliances with religious city-states. I still picked another reformation because of a simple matter: I was still at the first medieval tech column, way far from Acoustics, and was not planning to beeline to that tech. If I wanted a more long-term belief, I could just pick TtGoG instead.

    If Masses also included Amphitheaters, even lowered to 4 :c5culture:, I'd have picked this reformation instead.

    The other issue about saving faith for Masses is that we're talking about pre-Industrial. If you try to save faith, you get prophets instead, and their holy sites provide culture and tourism. They already act as a poor man Masses in a sense. That's another reason I think Masses need a better timing.

    EDIT: add Resilience enhancer to buff the culture of Holy Sites and you have a decent early alternative to Masses...
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    My most recent game as tradition has 11 turns to build public schools in secondary cities. This is with a golden age, but no production from religion or monopolies.

    So I agree, public schools are buildable. They might be tough, but you are giving up a ton of faith to faith buy them.

    I did have Jesuit Education in my Korea game with 5 cities. Here is what I did

    Universities- faith buy all of them, no questions asked. Super cheap price, I want them now.

    Public schools- I faith bought 3 and built 2. Didn't have enough faith to buy them all, I probably wouldn't buy one in the capital either way because I'd rather have the faith. This is a tough decision because I do want infrastructure, and I want it quickly, but faith has become so valuable at this stage of the game. Great People are really good

    Research Labs- Lol. They cost almost 4,000 faith. Faith buy 0, no questions asked.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think a good solution to multiplayer problems is just to ban certain things.

    With that said, it makes Faith of the Masses look pretty crappy to me.
     

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