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Going for Gold: Reformation Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 18, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 1, 2018.
  1. Yes

    71.4%
  2. No

    28.6%
  1. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Once I'm in an industrial age or nearing it, I'd rather save up faith for GPs than to buy buildings with faith, which is a drawback in my book for Faith&Jesuit reformations' option of faith-buying the applicable buildings. Maybe Faith of the masses and Jesuit education could offer a % production modifier to applicable buildings? Something like 50%, like the social policy for Train stations and Seaports? Also, something to potentially discuss, like already mentioned above, would be to have both Faith and Jesuit extended to Amphitheaters and Libraries, with a reworking of bonuses (smaller bonuses for earlier buildings, bigger for later bonuses).
     
  2. Legen

    Legen King

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    I don't think Jesuit needs to include libraries, Universities are already well timed for the reformation. I think Masses need Amphitheaters because the current version forces you to wait one and a half era to benefit from it, whle already having an alternative in spawning Jesus/Buddha/Confucius/Mohammed for Holy Sites.

    I do not have an opinion about faith/production costs. If that needs adjustments, I'd consider the buildings also gaining faith yields, which is fitting for a building funded by a religious entity.
     
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    That's an interesting idea. Make the building provide +5 science and +5 faith (or whatever number makes sense). Helps to offset some of the cost without fundamentally changing the belief.
     
  4. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I mean he's giving up some of his snowballing potential for defense. To counter snowball harder, or gang up on them.

    If you're nearly even in military, using your powerful reformation belief on a defensive tool SHOULD make a difference. I don't think it lets you fight off 2 human players that were even-ish with you beforehand though.

    Play how you want though. If banning it makes your games better, do it. I just haven't had that issue.

    I do 100% agree that it's OP on Basil though. Double Hijime lul.
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    From G in the Enhancer thread

    Spoiler Changes to Reformation Beliefs :
    Jesuit Education: May build Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith. If the majority Religion, Follower reduction from rival Inquisitors and Prophets halved.

    One World, One Religion: Receive 1 additional Delegate in the World Congress for every 8 City-States in the game. +34% Yields from Friendly/Allied City-States following this Religion.

    Sacred Sites: Hotels and all buildings purchased with Faith provide +3 Tourism each. World and Natural Wonders gain +4 Tourism each. Hermitage provides +10 Culture and +10 Tourism.

    Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person (in Industrial Era), with units locked behind Policy Branches costing double their normal amount. When you expend a Great Person, gain 1 Gold, Science, and Culture per City following your Religion (max 20 Cities).

    Faith of the Masses: May build Amphitheaters, Opera Houses, Museums, Stadiums, and Broadcast Towers with Faith. Holy City owner gains +1 Happiness for every two Cities following this Religion.

    Knowledge Through Devotion : Landmarks and Great Person Improvements produce +4 Faith and Science. Great Works produce +2 Culture, and you can purchase Archaeologists with Faith.

    I just want to explain my thoughts on some of these.

    Jesuit Education: We removed the primary benefit and added a much weaker, unrelated bonus. That anti-inquisitor thing has uses but it doesn't fit here. If I want to spread my religion a lot I'm not buying universities with faith. It doesn't even give you yields, instead it just gives you options.
    • The first option is a new way to build universities. Its a pretty good option, though the opportunity cost is high (faith is really important in medieval).
    • The second option is a new way to build public schools. Once again, its powerful, but the opportunity cost is significant.
    • The third option is a new way for new players to make mistakes or for experienced players to add a challenge to the late game. Jokes aside, I tested this recently and I really regretted spending faith on research labs. They cost too much faith.
    Faith of the Masses: I think it has the same issue as Jesuit, those late game culture buildings cost far too much faith. The happiness is actually a great bonus. Its better than Jesuit. I think the biggest strength is that your neighbors won't benefit much from it, so you can relax when spreading.

    Knowledge Through Devotion: For tradition this was already about as good as jesuit education. Its competition got nerfed really hard but it didn't. Looks very strong to me.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Just FYI I'm hitting faith costs for those buildings as well.

    G
     
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  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I still don't think that fixes Jesuits personally, unless its much much cheaper.
     
  8. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I really like this if costs for Jesuit and Masses are significantly reduced. I think it is a step into right direction. What costs do you plan? I think Schools should be somewhere around 800:c5faith: and Laboratories around 1100-1200:c5faith:. However i'm not sure about Follower reduction. It is a cool thing to have in the game, but how does it fit here? It should belong to some other place.

    Same thing with Archaeologists for faith, does anyone ever use it? I mean if you take Knowledge - you kinda want to spent faith on Great Prophets and not on Archaeologists. Gazebo, i think that this is a perfect thing to have in Sacred Sites, not in Knowledge. It kinda fits there and has zero synergy with Knowledge
     
  9. Legen

    Legen King

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    I disagree. The archaeologists are well fit for Knowledge because it lets you get your science+faith boosted landmarks very quickly. Thing is, unlike production, you can stock faith for when you unlock Archaeology to buy multiple archaeologists in a single turn. Moreover, Knowledge gives you extra faith through your :c5greatperson: GPTI; if you have been planting your great people as this reformation asks, it will provide you with lots of faith per turn for this moment. And those that dig for artifacts, Knowledge gives some extra culture on each of them. I think the design is well made.

    In my last game, I purchased three immediately, then got seven more with faith because my faith output was almost half of an archaeologist. And I would hae purchased more if there were more sites to dig, I wasn't the first to reach this tech. If I were, I'd be spending faith non-stop. it's essentially 560-570 :c5faith: for a great work, which you'd spend at least 1200 :c5faith: on a first writer, artist or musician. It's definitely strong.
     
  10. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Well you can't build Great Writers right? How much of them you can purchase immediately? You probably stored something like 5000:c5faith: so you can buy 9-10 of them. But Building them takes 8-10 turns and once you've reached Archeology - you need to start building them ASAP in every city. So you basically spend 5000 faith to get all those Artifacts 8-10 turns earlier? Is this really of value? Don't say that it gives you opportunity to grab more Archaeological Sites, that is not true. There is enough anyway and if you are loosing that race so heavily - you probably done something else wrong.
     
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    At least in King, I'm getting more artifacts than I can store, even when just producing archaeologists, so it never crossed my mind to expend faith on them.
     
  12. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Same on deity and by a big margin. However it is worth digging them anyway because you get a lot of Tourism Bombs from it. But this is not enough to justify spending 5-6 thousand faith on 10 Archaeologists
     
  13. Legen

    Legen King

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    It is of value if 5000 :c5faith: comes quickly and you don't have TtGoG to always have a great person costing less than 5k. When you get 5k in 10-15 turns and the great people you have available for purchase quickly cost at least 8k, the archaeologists end being reasonably priced. Which probably speaks more of TtGoG's strength than about Knowledge itself, it takes a long time to have all the great people cost above 5k when you have all of them available. When only four are available (prophet included), the cost ramps up quickly to the point where you can't spend faith on them efficiently.

    Thing is, 5k faith actually accumulates quickly with Knowledge, so the archaeologists don't feel costly. If it were with Sacred Sites, or other reformation that doesn't provide faith, then I agree it wouldn't be much value.
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Personally I don’t always have all my public schools built by the time arch comes around so thst makes the archeologist buying better as well.

    This may be a map size thing (I play small), but I find the artifact game pretty competitive on emperor. I never max on artifacts I can always get more
     
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  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Artifacts are a race. If I spend 5000 faith and only half of that faith ends up being needed to win the race, I'm still pretty happy about it. You lose like 1 great person in order to get 5 artifacts? Its a great deal.

    Against Glory of God, your advantage is all the science and faith.
     
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  16. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Jesuit Education: May build Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith. If the majority Religion, Follower reduction from rival Inquisitors and Prophets halved.

    -Resilience makes no sense here. Also as stated before I hate the idea of removing buffs to buildings just to reduce costs. I'm never going to pick this again as is.

    One World, One Religion: Receive 1 additional Delegate in the World Congress for every 8 City-States in the game. +34% Yields from Friendly/Allied City-States following this Religion.

    -Actual garbage. If you've got 10 cities states friends/allies and they're all following your religion and are getting an average 12 yields from each of them (This is an extremely high example. Most games will be less.) you're getting 40 yields. Not to mention you probably can't convert all of them. Also you get 2 votes on standard! Woo! Knowledge through devotion blows this out of the water for tall, and city state yields are much less meaningful for wide.

    Sacred Sites: Hotels and all buildings purchased with Faith provide +3 Tourism each. World and Natural Wonders gain +4 Tourism each. Hermitage provides +10 Culture and +10 Tourism.

    -Looks like it actually generates a lot of tourism now. Worth trying.

    Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person (in Industrial Era), with units locked behind Policy Branches costing double their normal amount. When you expend a Great Person, gain 1 Gold, Science, and Culture per City following your Religion (max 20 Cities).

    -lol max 60 yields per GP. Doesn't even scale with era. Not sure that's even worth the text.

    Faith of the Masses: May build Amphitheaters, Opera Houses, Museums, Stadiums, and Broadcast Towers with Faith. Holy City owner gains +1 Happiness for every two Cities following this Religion.

    -This one is fine. Offers a secondary benefit that matters, and has a large list of buildings to spend faith on. I'd still prefer if they gave yields instead, but I'm a yields junkie. I think with this one being changed Jesuit Education could have stayed the same and they would have been more different.

    Knowledge Through Devotion: Landmarks and Great Person Improvements produce +4 Faith and Science. Great Works produce +2 Culture, and you can purchase Archaeologists with Faith.

    -This is a nice powerful belief. I like it.
     
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  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think the math shows true here. Maybe get free influence per turn with a CS that shares your religion?
     
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  18. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Jesuit Education: May build Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith. If the majority Religion, Follower reduction from rival Inquisitors and Prophets halved.

    Agreed with others, I don't see myself ever taking this, even with reduced costs (unless they were drastically reduced, the 25% reduction that Gazebo mentioned in the Enhancer thread isn't enough). I don't know why the +science bonus was removed and this "Resilience" bonus added (I can achieve much better than that by simply stationing an inquisitor in each of my cities).

    One World, One Religion: Receive 1 additional Delegate in the World Congress for every 8 City-States in the game. +34% Yields from Friendly/Allied City-States following this Religion.

    Agreed with others, I don't see myself taking this. The bonuses from this pale in comparison to other Reformation beliefs' bonuses. Imho needs a big rework to be viable.

    Sacred Sites: Hotels and all buildings purchased with Faith provide +3 Tourism each. World and Natural Wonders gain +4 Tourism each. Hermitage provides +10 Culture and +10 Tourism.

    Looks quite good, I see myself taking it when going for a culture victory. Perhaps I'd add a (small) tourism yield to great works and GPTIs and slightly nerf the tourism bonus to world&natural wonders to make this belief more equally viable for tall/small civs that don't have many wonders in the early/mid game compared to uber-strong tall wonder-chasing civs (like Egypt or warmongers through conquest) and compared to wide empires with more natural wonders in their territory. Still, all in all looks quite good!

    Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person (in Industrial Era). When you expend a Great Person, gain 1 Gold, Science, and Culture per City following your Religion (max 20 Cities).

    If left without a double faith cost penalty for locked GPs, this will remain too strong. I'd rather we have a double faith cost penalty and a real secondary bonus instead of the very small amount of yields the current one offers. Maybe something like GPs can't be assassinated in cities following this religion (like with Mandirs), or no cooldown period when faith-purchasing GPs.

    Faith of the Masses: May build Amphitheaters, Opera Houses, Museums, Stadiums, and Broadcast Towers with Faith. Holy City owner gains +1 Happiness for every two Cities following this Religion.

    Like with Jesuit education, I don't see myself spending large amount of faith early on (when I need it for spreading and other stuff) or later in the game (when I'm saving up to spend on unlocked GPs). I also don't understand why the bonus to yields was taken away. I'd rather the happiness bonus was taken away and the culture bonus returned (perhaps reworked, different number of culture for different buildings). With the culture bonus, this belief often granted more than 1 happiness per city (due to reducing boredom) while also helping with tourism defense, unlocking social policies. All in all, I see this proposal as a nerf.

    Knowledge Through Devotion: Landmarks and Great Person Improvements produce +4 Faith and Science. Great Works produce +2 Culture, and you can purchase Archaeologists with Faith.

    Will faith costs of purchasing archeologists also be reduced? Otherwise it's quite good, except that I'd prefer if they gave +4 science and, instead of + 4 faith (which isn't that useful at that part of the game) if it gave +2 (?) of some other yield.
     
  19. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    if cost for Universities/Schools/Laboratories are reduced by 25% it is absolute crap. My initial idea was to remove +5:c5science: but in this case costs should be something like 300/700/1100. Not more than that.

    I argee that 34% yields is a bit weak. I'd say should be like 60-70%
     
  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Even that number isn't amazing considering the work. I think its better to give it a secondary benefit. I mentioned CS influence as one idea. Let it be 50% CS bonus to keep it clean and simple, and then add on a secondary.
     
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