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Going for Gold: Reformation Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 18, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 1, 2018.
  1. Yes

    71.4%
  2. No

    28.6%
  1. Legen

    Legen King

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    Then you're close to grabbing part of Siam's UA for yourself. It could be better to replicate what Chanceries and Wire Services offer instead, like +2 :c5goldenage: per friendly CS, +3 :c5faith: per allied CS in each city.
     
  2. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Right, but Siam can take it too, right?
    You are wrong, this is a noticeable bonus. Really, it is.
     
  3. Legen

    Legen King

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    Yes. They won't feel it as a +60-70% increase relative to what they were getting, but yes.
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The resilience is awkward. I agree with others that simply giving more yields to science buildings would differentiate it from faith of the masses in a satisfactory way.
    With that code embargo. perhaps this could increase resting :c5influence:influence with all city-states following your religion to 30? Any city-state following your religion is automatically your friend, and giving you +34% more yields to boot. A nice, low maintenance booster.

    Great for Siam too, since it would guarantee allies on conversion.
    Strong tourism play. This will combine extremely well with Way of the Pilgrim. The recent buffs to this, along with the new Diocese belief have me very worried that strong religion is going to be prerequisite to a CV. The tourism game with religions is becoming very powerful
    As others have stated, I don't think the yields on GP expend are interesting or necessary here. I think dropping them will help keep Martyrdom more unique.
    Looks good. The bonuses make sense together, and this belief isn't such a brute-force culture-wall now, which is nice.
    I would consider this the gold-standard belief against which all other reformation beliefs should be compared.
     
  5. Legen

    Legen King

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    Sacred Sites is already that, there's no change. And founding a religion is already potentially gamechanging for a CV due to the World Religion giving a +50% :tourism: in the holy city, which is fitting for a diplo proposal. Diocese is what needs attention, it's looking to change founder beliefs balance radically.
     
  6. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    For Jesuit Education, lowering the Faith costs by a lot, like 50-75%, and giving it like +2-3 science on all its listed buildings sounds good to me. Another option I wouldn't mind is keeping faith costs high, dropping/lowering Science, but making it so that all you need to do to unlock Public Schools/Research Labs is enter Industrial.
    For One World, One Religion....my pipe-dream is something like +5 influence with all CS from every missionary spread action, or +40 influence with a CS once you spread religion to them using a missionary (repeatable).
    For To the Glory of God....I think it's fine the way it was. Double faith cost penalty for GPs already discovered would seriously suck and I would pick Knowledge through Devotion all of the time in that case.
     
  7. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    I believe there used to be a belief that gave influence on missionary spread but it was way broken in human hands
     
  8. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    After my last game i'm even more convinced that 20% treshold is too much for Reformation. It should be 15%

    My Venice game was a perfect example. The only civ that was able to reform naturally was Ethopia. Byz Reformed via St. Basil. I managed to reform on turn 250 only and that was because i captured and inquisited losts of cities, i had Scripture and i had 2 Vassals!

    I think that it is actually kinda okay when 4 or 5 religions normally are able get Reformation. The difference is in how much effort does it take to get Reformation. With 15% treshold it will be so that for Religious civs it will be more or less easy to get Reformation, and it should be. Religion is their UA, they should be able to reform. For other civs Reformation will be possible but requires a lot of effort to get. Everything seems right in that scheme, i do not see any downside.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    tu_79 likes this.
  9. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    If x2 is judged too much of an extra cost for To the Glory of God (for the Great People not unlocked by completing a tree), perhaps we could start with +50%?

    I think the optionality of being able to buy GP is just huge: Great Engineers/Writers/Artists/Diplomats/Scientists are useful whatever the winning condition pursued.
    So that TtGoG is still among the best beliefs, even with Sainthood nerfed.
     
  10. Almonds

    Almonds Chieftain

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    I've always disliked that this belief trumps social policy finishers. Are there other rewards that essentially bypass systems such as this?
     
  11. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Order's free Research Labs don't need Plastics, and their free Military Academies don't need Military Science. New Iconography will allow you to bypass policy requirement.

    I am strongly opposed to nerfing TGOG, the other Reformations are being buffed, let's not nerf this one into oblivion.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    If there was just a 1.5x faith cost on TtGoG, I think that would be fine. It would just be nice not to have a reformation belief completely supersede your policy finishers. Makes finishers feel pretty moot, especially if you can't get the wonder
     
  13. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    How does everyone feel like about the changes to Reformation beliefs?

    I still think TtGoG is considerably too strong, by far the best Reformation belief. Also, I think Faith of the masses and Jesuit education both have too high faith costs and not enough culture/science bonuses to be worth it, especially compared to some other strong Reformation beliefs.
     
  14. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I think Defender of the Faith is overpowered or the wide empire alternatives like Faith of the Masses/Jesuit are underpowered. Probably the latter because FotM/Jesuit really aren't impressive. DotF has by far the strongest yields that come in the most timely manner as well as likely the strongest secondary effect which is 30% CS in your own lands. Now that it has it's 3:c5culture:2:c5faith: from Wall, Castle, Arsenal back (was 1 faith for a time), it seems even better compared to Culture belief in comparison. Faith of the Masses, at the very same point you get +6C +4F from DoTF (early medieval) can only give 2 bonus Culture from Amphitheatre and another 2 from Opera House an entire era and half later, as well as some Happiness and buildings that cost quite a bit of Faith. FOTM/JE faith costs seem very high unless I'm very wide wih Faith and either someone like Ethiopia, or sporting 1-2 religious buildings with good Faith and Fealty and even then they seem high, especially after they scale. This makes them too niche for a reformation belief, unless their niche is being inferior to DOTF. I don't think I'd pick FOTM or JE unless DotF was taken.

    I don't understand what DoTF is meant to need all this faith for, it's not the belief that will be spending thousands upon thousands of it on buildings.
     
    TheBigFundamental likes this.
  15. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    The more i play with Crusader's Spirit, the more underwhelming it proves to be even for someone who plays the game burn and pillage style ..... the yields on city capture are very low even (Capturing a 20 pop renaissance era capital gave roughly 3 turns worth of culture and 1000ish gold) in medieval or renaissance when most of the conquests post reformation usually take place ... the +20% :c5strength: is nice but is it really that impactful to waste a reformation belief to get it when there are much better alternatives that would boost your empire in general ? I think the yields could see a +25~33% bump or something especially when it's counter part, DOTF gives good yields that helps combating boredom not just instant yields.
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I do think DOTF gives too much culture.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  17. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Yeah, unless I desperately need combat strength, I like dotf over crusader in wide warmonger games. I remember I had a wide game as England where I rushed Reformation to get +6 culture on all castles, it was pretty nuts
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    My general impression on Reformations right now:

    Defender of the Faith - S. A strong defense bonus and a super good yield bonus, this one tops the charts to me.

    Crusader Spirit - C. If your going war, it seems decent enough, but I can never find myself taking it.

    Diving Teachings - C. I can never seem to find the faith to buy those buildings, I always have something else to do. The science bonus is nice but takes a while to scale.

    Faith of the Masses - A. Still have trouble finding time to faith buy the buildings, but it gives early culture which is always welcome and does scale stronger into the late game. The happiness bonus is not that great, but every little bit helps.

    Global Commandments - ?. The bonuses look really good, I just find on higher difficulties I rarely found the WC....and so I wouldn't get the bonuses until later, if at all.

    Holy Land - A. A solid belief for diplomatic focused civs. More votes is always good, and the extra yields from your CS work is even better.

    Inspired Works - A. Very good for GP focused tall civs, and the archeologist buy actually has some pretty solid value.

    Sacred Sites - ?. Is this belief good for CV? I never use it myself.

    To the Glory of God - A. While no longer the OP powerhouse it once was, still a very solid and flexible belief that can work with a lot of playstyles. Its also a go to belief if your trying a policy dip strategy (like border blobs with Russia), so you can still get GP buys in without the finishers.
     
  19. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I agree although I'd buff it even more than you suggested, upwards of 40%.
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    3 turns of culture and 1,000 gold is a low reward?

    I think defender of the faith should just lose a yield already. It frequently comes up as better than the other choices just for that sweet faith and culture.
     

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