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Going for Gold: Resource / Monopoly Bonuses

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Elephants arent the only source for ivory.....
    It also comes from narwhales, walruses and hippos. ;)
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The Syrian elephant definitely was. Alexander encountered Persian armies fielding them several times in his conquest (circa 330 B.C.). The Syrian elephant was extirpated around 100BC; 120 years after Hannibal crossed the alps with his own now-extinct elephants. Practically yesterday.

    We don’t have good accounts of the Chinese elephant, only ancient artwork and some ivory tools -- and some fossils, of course. That’s the same story with mammoths and mastodons, each group including at least half a dozen species. Ivory tools and artwork.

    Paleoloxodon (straight-tusked elephants) are estimated to have died out at least 50 000 years ago. Their ranges were mostly in Europe, including the British Isles, and humans hadn't left Africa at that point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Indeed, but - unless I need new glasses - those grey trunky mammal thingies on the civ map aren't hippos.

    Solution looking for a problem IMO.

    G
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Well if changing resource placement is off the table, then there's no discussion to be had.

    I don't think it is conducive to balance to have a luxury resource which confers a unique unit, and then have that resource localized to one corner of the map. A historical reason for why we should keep it localized was tabled, and I attempted a historically-rooted rebuttal. My historical argument is at best obtuse, but it's my opinion that the historical aspects of the game should be in service to the gameplay, as opposed to a hindrance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Need a better answer? I don't mess with mapscripts and - even if I did - changing it would require a complete rework of every mapscript that places resources.

    It's really a non-starter for a lot of reasons.

    G
     
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Have you never heard of Hannibal, who crossed the Alps with his hippos and walruses to defeat the Romans? I thought it was in the nature of the game to change the story to his liking? ;)
     
    Gazebo likes this.
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  8. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    Coral and Pearl is far superior. Whale is just so-so.
     
  9. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    The yields for perls are only gold, and whales have much better monopoly, while giving valuable food and hammer you need before you can build the working boat.
    For me, gold and silver are the most terrible luxury you can get. It gives only 3 yields (mainly weak gold), the enhancing building comes extremly late and the monopoly (from gold) suck.
    Also tobacco. +4 gold in comparison to +4 hammer from tea is absolutly inferior, additionaly, the enhancing building for tobacco comes very late and give even more gold, which is kinda nothing in that state of the game.

    How long do you need to unlock bank or grocery? 200 turns? 8 from 30 luxuries are improved already after tier 2 or 3 tech and gain 2 yields, while bank and grocery comes at tier7 tech, and only improve by 3 yields, mainly by relative crappy gold.
    We should give those luxuries an earler related building or give them much more and valuable yields for balance. (Gold/silver could give 3 gold, 2 culture for example, a lot of cultural relevant jewellry or works of art are made by gold and silver.)
     
    Gokudo01 likes this.
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Tobacco has faith on monopoly, which can be used to consistently found a religion. You can argue that being a founder is no longer such a big deal, but don't ignore it.
    Gold is rather bland, but it can be connected ligthing fast (only mines) and give early gold that is very useful for a mid-sized standing army, in a time where markets are absent. Problem I see with silver and gold is when there are no chances to make use of this bigger ancient army. If this small advantage cannot be used (something that happens to me every time), then it becomes a drag for the rest of the game. But don't overlook the corporations. Jewelers has a very nice corporation for GP generation. I turned once the tides thanks to this. Sea luxuries, on the other hand, give a food corporation (yeah, extra food is nice, if you are happy).
     
  11. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I disagree about Tobacco, it's often nice to start near. If you settle on these things, your city tile will get +2:c5gold: +2:c5faith: with you doing absolutely nothing, that's nice. If you don't plan to settle on it or the locations it's on would be too bad even with that in mind, it does suck a bit though. Gold and Silver probably are the worst though, they're the ones I like starting near the least.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Doesn't gold give +1 culture right off the bat? That is a pretty nice benefit and hard to discount.
     
  13. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I might be mistaking Gold with something else, but I think it gives like +1 Gold at start, then +2 Gold +1 Production. or something like that. Or I'm thinking of something else, that or it was buffed and I didn't notice.
     
  14. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    It gives 1G1C at start and 1G1P when improved.
     
  15. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Maybe it was changed then and I just haven't started near it since, or I'm thinking of something else.
     
  16. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    My army at the start is rather small, maybe thats the reason why I nearly never have big problems with gold early, something I always lack is hammers. Its simply always a pain to start near luxuries which mainly give gold. And how much does 3 extra gold for gold or silver really help? You have to pay some hundreds of gold to buy something and 6 luxuries with 3 extra gold each doesnt make that big deal.

    Civilopedia GOLD: +1 gold +1 culture, improved +1 gold
     
  17. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    I am pretty sure coral boat give culture and production, and the monopoly is faith, which is quite valuable.

    Gold is the strongest unimproved luxury after fur.
    As I mentioned earlier, I hope grocer or bank luxuries bonus yield moved into earlier era building.
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    And since its a mine resource, +2 P when you get the forge. I think it looks pretty decent.
     
  19. Han_YOLO

    Han_YOLO Chieftain

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    Gold is nice to start near due to the culture bonus, early production and fact that it is in the first tech tier so easy to get online. It does lag during the mid game and I think the gold bonus could be moved to customs house.

    Does silver give culture too?
     
  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It did.
     

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