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Going for Gold: Resource / Monopoly Bonuses

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jun 4, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    Then why there is a level cap? So Japan wouldn't be OP?
     
  2. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    There's a level cap? But I remember having 20+ level units back when Epic didn't scale XP and Japan could get multiple dojo promos on an unit, and I don't remember a patch note saying it's added... Granted, that was like a year or two ago. Was it ninjad in, or did I not notice?
     
  3. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    The only time I've ever gotten close to having a level 10 unit was late-game as Japan or Zulu, and that was before the adjustments to unit XP for Epic and Marathon speed (I always play Epic, so my units would level up faster before the fix).

    As for luxury yields in general: I think they're mostly fine, save that some of the luxuries that only/mostly give :c5gold: and :c5food: are weaker because :c5gold: is overvalued slightly as a tile yield and :c5food: as a luxury is overvalued when you can now get plenty of :c5food: from farms and bonus resources. Moving ALL :c5culture: yields to improvements and building upgrades is an interesting proposal, but I fear that it would make luxuries feel less varied and interesting. Luxuries with early :c5culture: were supposed to be balanced by having weaker monopoly bonuses, and if that is still not the case then I feel changes should be made. Also, there is still almost zero :c5science: from luxuries. We could always add some :c5science: to certain luxuries (at the loss of other yields) in order to add more variety.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  4. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    The monopoly bonus would have to be significantly worse before I'd want less early culture for it. Culture snowballs - you use culture to unlock policies, and most of the policies you unlock give you ways to get more culture. I usually finished a Monument on turn 10/11. That means I get my first Policy around turn 35/36. If you can work even one +1 Culture tile, that's cut down to turn 24/25. That's huge! It really is not a small difference. Say I go Authority. If I kill two barb camps between turns 35/36 - which is not unusual, by turn 35/36 I am over 90 Culture ahead of a player who did not work 1 Culture tile - 2x 25 for Camp Clearing, 2x 6 for the two Barbs in the Camp (and I probably did more than that anyway), and 35x 1 Culture per turn.

    Even if you're willing to tolerate the above, that's only working 1 Culture tile. It is a description of my start with Gold or Perfume or Lapsi neaby - I settle directly onto them, since they don't give enough Food or Production to be workable very early on.

    However, Furs and Dye? They are +2:c5food: +1:c5production: +1:c5culture: tiles. If I have three available to my Capital, I will be working all three of them ASAP. Suddenly, you have a culture explosion without lagging at all on infrastructure or units.

    Even if you're not willing to change Gold, Perfume, Incense, or Coral, which, like, I'm skeptical about but can understand, Furs and Dye need changing.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    If you are going to take authority and you cleared a barbarian 5 turns before you take the social policy, aren't you just making a terrible choice? Maybe an AI is about to clear it but this is becoming really situational.

    People keep mentioning furs but not perfume, my guess is that on perfume you are ahead on culture but farther behind on production and food. Its interesting being strong in one area and weak in another. On grassland perfume will be tempted to work something production. If being on perfume means finishing your monument 1-2 turns later, it somewhat offsets your culture advantage. Perfume is a pretty crazy luxury because of its arena bonus though.

    Furs are great because they provide 4 yields including culture. Working a 2 food, 1 hammer tile is reasonable in the early game (its probably better than working a tobacco tile) so its just extra culture with a very low opportunity cost. There isn't really a drawback to being on furs. The improvement being weak (only +1 gold) doesn't really matter because
    • you can just do other things with workers
    • post improvement, the tile is still good when compared to other improved luxuries
    • you get +1 hammer on camps from the herbalist
    • it still has a forest so it gets forest bonuses later on
    • There are 3 pantheons which boost furs (camp, stars and sky, renewal)
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  6. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Sure, but it was just an example. If you take Tradition, you got 11 turns more of +1:c5culture: per :c5citizen: in the Capital. Even if you only hit 4:c5citizen: and not 6:c5citizen:, that's 11 more turns +2 Culture, so that's 22 Culture + 35 Culture = 57 Culture more. That's a lot! If you got to 6:c5citizen:, it's 33 Culture + 35 Culture = 68 Culture ahead.

    68 Culture is like... almost your entire second policy.

    I settle onto Perfume to avoid that problem. But yes, Grassland Perfume is slightly less bad as an initial tile. I do think it gives too much culture with the Arena, but that's a different problem for another day...

    Yup. If Furs is your Monopoly luxury, just take God of the Hunt, and, well, uber-tiles early on.[/quote][/QUOTE]
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  7. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    I think that's an important point to consider. Culture luxuries are not that strong if you have to work tiles to have their bonus, but are probably the best tile you could settle on.

    Which leads to the question:
    Should "settling on a ressource" be nerfed?
    I've always considered it as being kind of an exploit.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think taking culture off of all resources as 'base' and moving it to improvements-only makes sense. Besides, its the process of hunting/farming/processing that generates 'culture' as a concept - it's not like furs intrinsically provide culture. :)

    G
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I think the incense could keep the base culture, but that's the only one.

    As mentioned before, since incense appears on desert so often, I'm not worried about incense starts getting too far ahead with that, and it keeps incense unique
     
    CrabHelmet likes this.
  10. Legen

    Legen King

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    Anyone has an opinion on the +10% yield monopolies, like Silk and Tea? I think that these are the best monopolies to get due to their scaling, and also a factor of which AIs are prone to become runaways. Especially if they go for Imperialism. I think they're better reduced to a lower percentage, like 5%, or changed to their "yields on tiles" equivalent instead.
     
    lunker likes this.
  11. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    Well... They are supposed to be worse earlier and stronger later. If you have a city with 6 :c5production: and you just achieved the monopoly requirements for +10% :c5production:, that would be +0,6 :c5production:, not that impactful. On the other hand, a +2 :c5production: Monopoly on resource can easily net +4 :c5production: for a city. That's a +66% increase. And, because of early snowballs, it can be much more impactful. I agree though that later on the values of these % scale so much better that they put the other monopolies numbers to shame.

    Personally, I've always thought a halfway approach could be better, let's say: +1 :c5production: on resources and +5% :c5production: in every city. That way, even cities within your empire without any tile of that resource would still have a slight benefit.

    Once more, about Tobacco being weak... What about moving it's "building improvement" to the Herbalist? Seems flavorful, and if :c5gold: would be the most (or the only one) significant yield you'll get from it, better earlier (though slightly reduced) than that late.

    I'd also try to move Gold, Silver, Gems, Tea and Coffee (and Tobacco, if the Herbalist idea isn't well received) "building improvements" to earlier buildings. I don't like how big the step is between these resources and the rest, which can be improved by the Late Classical - Early Medieval era.
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    The 10% monopolies are good late game but really weak early on. Especially the culture one because culture does not round and its per city. Your city will not earn anything until it has 10 culture, then it earns 1. If your city gets 19 culture? Still only get 1. Its not hitting bonus yields either. You have to either get a pantheon with some culture, take tradition, or rush towards inspiration to get anything significant from these early game.
     
  13. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    because otherwise it becomes useless desert bananas.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Incense and maybe perfume could keep their culture. Perfume's arena bonus should be changed either way though.
     
  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    With so many resources losing their culture pre-improvement, why does coral still have it? Its the best luxury by a huge margin currently. It produces every type of yield, even faith and science. I haven't had the luxury in a while, but in my current game I have 25 science on turn 49. Nothing else is even close to competing with that.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Because I forgot to upload More Luxuries to the installer. :3
     
  17. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    How does everyone like Perfume starts now that it still retains 1 culture unimproved, but loses a yield on Arena?

    I also think incense starts on plains are far too strong, given the culture yield plus the faith monopoly, essentially giving you a tremendous early culture/faith game.
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    It really bothers me that Perfume and Arena is the only luxury which is only 1 yield. Can we add a gold to it or something?

    Incense has a culture pre-improvement and a culture post-improvement, doesn't it? It doesn't need both.
     
  19. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I agree that Perfume needs something else added to make up for the loss of 1 :c5culture:, but I'm not sure what. 1-2 :c5gold: is boring and makes it very similar in yields to Cotton and Dye. Perfume logically makes the most sense as the "culture heavy" plantation luxury given what the real life luxury is/does, and other yields like :c5faith:/:c5food:/:c5production:/:c5science: don't make any sense. Maybe make Arenas give +1 :c5culture: and :c5gold: and then change the Monopoly bonus to +10% :c5culture:?
     
  20. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I don't like Perfume nor Incense myself.
     

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