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Going for Gold: Tourism

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by CrazyG, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Hello everyone. This discussion has come up in a few places, such as this thread
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/germany.536154/page-8#post-15631819

    I figured it would be best to bring the discussion to a single place. I think there are three questions to look at
    1. How viable is a tourism victory compared to other options?
    2. Are any sources of tourism too strong, relative to other sources?
    3. Are any sources of tourism too weak, relative to other sources?

    The following are the sources of per turn tourism in the game
    • Great Works and Artifacts
    • Themeing Bonuses
    • Buildings
    • Some religious beliefs
    • Wonders
    • Forests and Jungles (after the zoo)
    • Landmarks
    • X% of culture from tiles and great works converted to tourism each turn (hotels, national visitor center)
    The following are sources of bonus tourism
    • Historic Events
    • Trade Routes
    • Zoos
    • Artistry's policy for digging up a landmark
    • Conquering a city with (autocracy policy I forget the name of)
    The first two give you tourism based on the average of your culture output and tourism output. Note that this is only the per-turn values, and does not include bonus yields. Zoos give a flat number upon completion. Autocracy's policy gives tourism based on the population of the conquered city.

    You get a bonus (or penalty) to your tourism against other civs by
    • Having at least one trade route
    • Sharing religion
    • Sharing ideology (and there is a penalty for different ideologies)
    • Open borders
    • If they have unhappiness from boredom in their empire
    • Various ideological policies
    • You get a penalty to your tourism output based on number of cities
    • You can get a bonus or penalty based on passed world congress proposals
    This is all from memory and it's likely I forgot a few things, just post and I'll add them to the OP. If anyone can link me the exact way that tourism for historic events or trade routes is calculated, I'd be grateful.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Overall I've found the cultural victory to be easier than diplomatic or science for a while, though recently changes to AI behavior somewhat mitigated this, and the nerf to mosques helped too.

    The key to tourism is historic events. You want high culture output (and ideally lots of golden ages) to maximize your yield from historic events.

    There are a lot of other bonus sources, which are important as well, including trade routes and the autocracy conquest policy (which I think a lot of people overlook).

    Per turn yields are pretty insignificant, including things such as great works. Great Works are good because they give culture and upgrade your future great people, not because of their per-turn tourism yields.

    Themeing bonuses are a lot harder to get than they used to be, which does slow down tradition tourism play. Pre-archeology I cannot get themeing bonsues anymore, except the parthenon (which is so hard to build on Deity). The Parth is a good example of how I feel about most per-turn tourism sources: I get them by accident because I wanted something else, such as culture in the Parth's case.
     
  3. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Zoo's are a garbage Building in my eyes. They onIy gives Yields to Forest/ Jungle. The Yields the Zoo provides are lacking. I only build them to be able to build Stadiums.

    I would like to see some base Yield on the Hotel.

    I am not a fan of the Boredom Tourism aspect of it being 1 way: whoever has the higher Boredom, gets all of the Tourism multiplier.
     
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  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    In terms of the easiness of CV.

    I can't speak too much about aggressive CV (aka Autocracy style conquest CV). In terms of "passive CV"....aka your 5 city Tall, sit back and go CV.... when the stars align it is the easiest and fastest victory condition. However, I also find it the most inflexible victory. If culture runaways prevent me from easily getting a CV, I find its the hardest to pivot and adapt to victory. If I'm going DV for example and its not working out, I still can often go domination or science, as the CS pool I have still gives me good bonuses towards those ends.

    Now is it TOO easy when the stars align? Maayyybe, but I don't have a strong opinion on that one.

    Overall I do agree in a shift away from the instant bonuses to per-turn bonuses....though I feel that way with many things in general. Tourism right now is such a slippery yield, its this thing you get invisibly behind the scenes while you are doing your work....especially the historical events. I feel at least with TRs I get a strong sense of accomplishment, I complete the route, I get a nice big lump of Tourism....and I feel accomplished. But the other historical events just happen, I am never intentionally trying to trigger historical events per say, they just come from things that happen.
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The boredom tourism seems like it could form the template for Order's CV strategy. Give order the ability to unlock Distress and Poverty tourism modifiers in the same way that Boredom increases pressure. Seems like that could be an interesting change for the Dictatorship of the Proletariat
     
  6. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    I'm finding CV to be the hardest of the 4 at the moment but that's just me.
     
  7. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    1. How viable is a tourism victory compared to other options?
    For me CV is the easiest one by a long long mile, I can get CV without artistry or great musicians bombing by the time I get both t3 tenets, unless there is a very wide civ with good culture per turn. But then again, I think on huge maps conquest is way harder than on standard size. Diplo seems to depend on who your rivals are and your civ, but you need to advance quite a lot in techs and pass proposals in the world congress, and people are not fond of you being allied with all cs. Science, while being simple, also requires you to wait until almost the end of the game, so other civs have had the time to try to CV/DV/Conquest.

    2. Are any sources of tourism too strong, relative to other sources?
    Events in my opinion, unless you have taken active policies to reinforce them they should "automatically" net you lots of cultures just because you played the long game (not bulbing earlier cultural GPs, since you get more culture with their works, and better bulbs later).

    3. Are any sources of tourism too weak, relative to other sources?
    Now, with the recent changes to AI exchange behaviour, I think theming bonuses should be revised in some way. I've spent complete games (from classic to information era) with artworks that were never traded. Only way to nab artworks from other civs now is conquest, I don't know. Either make it easier by not requiring trade, and keep the same bonuses, or have a special bonus for you themining, each theming bonuse complete give some % tourism modifier for the civ, or maybe help you influence other civs, I don't know. I also am strongly against great work heists, as they just force you to place everything on your capital, thus making theming bonuses even more relevant, as you really watn everything in your capital to be themed (as it's safe from thieves).

    I personally am not fond of CV and I feel as we've made culture harder to get for balance reasons, it gets harder to defend from CV unless you DOW, but this could just be my impression.
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I had an interesting idea today, maybe someone is up to make a photojournal. I'm very busy at the moment, and won't be able to get to it for a while.

    Can you win a tourism victory, with 0 per turn tourism? So you have to become influential purely through bonus yields. It should be a challenge for sure, and provide a good exploration of the balance between tourism sources.

    I'm still thinking about exactly what the challenge should be, and maybe you could modify the game files slightly. I'm thinking you could remove the tourism from the Arena, so that it can still be built (because its required to build other buildings, and just a very important core building). Maybe a few random other sources of tourism might need to be removed as well.
     
  9. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I think the victory conditions are in a pretty good spot relative to eachother (standard/standard/deity/continents).

    Culture/Tourism is the fastest typically and can happen by default if you're dominant (I think it's ok for that to happen when you're dominant, the game is a win anyway and balancing around that situation doesn't make sense to me). I think it's actually the hardest to pull off in competitive games and requires the most finesse/skill/planning which justifies it being the quickest if you do everything right.

    In general it would be nice if tourism generation was based more on tourism/turn and less on culture/turn. I wonder if it would be best if tourism generation wasn't based on culture/turn at all. My general sense is that tourism/turn is very weak for the majority of the game as it is always some small fraction of your (and opponent's) culture/turn. So historical events end up being based pretty much just on culture/turn, for instance.

    I think these are all pretty weak for the majority of the game simply because culture/turn is usually something like 10-20x larger than tourism/turn, at least until you get to some of the end game techs that increase empire wide tourism. I think your idea for a 0 tourism/turn game would show that for the majority of the game your tourism generation would be about the same as normal but in the late game is where you would really miss the tourism/turn.

    It would be nice if everything in the list above became more consequential.

    The first two are the big contributors because they get to use culture/turn in their calculation. I think they are what skews everything. Making them based off of just tourism/turn would make the things in the first list more important and would be an improvement IMO, adjusting numbers/ values as needed.

    I think these modifiers are all good in general and encourage tourism victory seekers to care about trade routes, world congress, etc.
     
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  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    One of the reasons that we moved to more instant yield tourism is because the per-turn tourism 'creep' (and constant checking of the 'turns to influential') was deemed boring and too similar in function to the waiting game of science.

    G
     
  11. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Right now the Instant Tourism is completely dominating, however...furthermore, it's primarily the ETR Tourism bombs that are doing most of the work, while other Historical Events, like constructing WW, winning wars, entering new Era, GP birth are far less relevant; same goes for the Consulates policy...the Tourism gained from that is often an order of magnitude smaller than the Tourism from ETR to Major Civs...I feel like at least the percentage of Tourism that gets distributed to all the other Civs who weren't the target of the ETR should be reduced (from currently about 50% to, say, 25%, for example), while the Consulates Tourism should be increased (at least doubled I'd say) and GW Tourism also increased somewhat.
    Lastly, something needs to be done about AI and their unwillingness to trade GW...every AI needs foreign works of Art, for example, since they all have access to the Hermitage, but they still are extremely reluctant to trade anything. I also think there should be a notification when an AI puts something into the GW swap mechanism now (not just when it trades my own offers) because of how rare it is now and it's annoying to have to check there every turn and pretty much never finding anything.
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I don't know how the Instant Yields really addresses that. I'm just hitting the end turn button until the victory screen appears, except now I just don't know how many presses I'm going to do as I'm just waiting for that last "bomb" to occur.
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I am completely for reducing the Tourism value of a TR....but I think reducing the distribution to all civs is a massive step backward, and unnecessary. Just nerf the tourism gain from TR...done and done. Reducing the distribution brings back the old problems of it being too easy to stop someone's tourism with some TR pillaging and war declarations.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'm really struggling with the flavor and logic of a trade route to Persia making my culture more popular with a civ Persia has not yet met. I realize it is okay to sacrifice realism for better gameplay sometimes, but this one is just so strange to me.

    On the gameplay note, I'm not convinced it is better for gameplay. It basically means if I want to win by tourism I just abandon certain types of trade routes in the late game, which doesn't strike me as particularly good for gameplay or balance.
     
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  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    While I don't have a problem with the logic, I would be ok with the notion that the tourism doesn't spread to a civ you don't know, making exploration a little more important (though honestly the early tourism is so low compared to the latter it probably won't make much difference).

    Even before we made the change, CV has already heavily relied on ETRs. You don't go ITRs when you play CV, and its been that way for a very long time. Now if you are arguing that TRs should not be a major factor of CV at all....its a reasonable position to consider but it would be a much larger change than what we have discussed so far.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    You only receive tourism with civs you know.

    G
     
  17. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I know. I have met Germany. I have met Persia. Persia has not met Germany.

    I send a trade route to Persia, and upon completion, I get tourism with Germany. Just an example of how odd this system is.

    I think they should be a factor but a minor one. Whether or not a trade route completes is something you really don't have very much control over. 90% of the time, when you win a cultural victory, you beat 4 or 5 civs quite quickly, but you must spend a while to become influential in the last 1 or 2, who are usually leading the world (because they have the most culture), and its generally really difficult to complete trade routes to those civs. The key word is complete, in the late game you have sanctions, cold war, and frequent declarations of war, all of which deny your tourism is the route needed just 1 more turn. So they are a super inconsistent source of tourism, I think they should be nothing mroe than a nice bonus on top of your core tourism, which should be stuff like great works or hotels.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Okay, I'm in game, and I wanted to really try and make tourism from trade routes work. This is going to be a long post, but we need an in depth analysis of how you actually win by tourism.

    My argument is built on these assumptions
    1. The late game is most important for tourism, early game you generate relatively little
    2. The hardest part of a cultural victory is usually just one, sometimes two, civs who have much higher culture than the rest (I'm going to refer these civs are your 'rival')
    3. The AI will become hostile to you at some point, especially your rivals, and especially in the late game
    4. There is a high chance your rival takes a different ideology than you do

    If these assumptions aren't true, your game should be pretty easy.
    • If you get enough tourism to beat the AI early on, then you must be snowballing like crazy. You'll win.
    • If there is no single AI with high culture, it makes meeting your tourism goals a lot easier. It also means you can get way ahead in social policies. It is harder to beat a snowballing civ, who starts getting all the wonders, than beat an average civ
    • If the AI never becomes hostile to you, the game isn't that hard. If you cannot win a game with no conflict you need to lower your difficulty.
    • When your rival matches your ideology, the game just instantly becomes a million times easier. You get a tourism bonus, instead of a penalty, and they will be much friendlier (see #3)
    The problem with using trade routes to get tourism is that when the world starts getting hostile, they become more or less impossible to maintain. You get 0 tourism is the route does not finish, and they can take a long time to finish. I was choosing only the shortest routes, intentionally, and giving up 15 gold per turn to do so.
    • You can get sanctioned
    • Your target can get sanctioned
    • The Cold War resolution can be passed. All AI with ideologies appear to always support passing Cold War
    • Barbarians can appear from a CS quest, unhappiness in a foreign civ, or just on random islands
    • War can be declared on you by your target
    • War can be declared on you and a random ship finds a naval trade route
    • War can be declared on you and your target gave your enemy open borders
    So completing trade routes directly to your rival is very inconsistent. And I have multiple example games to show that just being able to complete a route to anyone in the late game is hard (does the # of turns for a trade route increase over time? In modern era most of my options suddenly are 40+ turns to complete). Some games, your rival will be a peaceful AI, with a safe path, who takes your ideology, and remains your friend all game. In this case, your trade routes can easily provide a half a million points of tourism by themselves.

    But in most games, you rival will be far away from you, hostile to you, and will have a different ideology. You will almost never share a religion, and the bonuses for open borders, diplomats, and trade routes can all be blocked by war. The only remaining tourism bonus is boredom. The civ with the most culture will have the least boredom, by definition of boredom. So this modifier will be 0 or very small, and you cannot influence it directly. You might be able to get a few trade routes completed in the industrial or modern era, but it won't be the bulk of your tourism.

    The other option is to send to trade routes to another civ, which gives you half the tourism value to other civs, including your rivals. This can work really well if you have a loser nearby, usually someone who lost a major war early on, so their empire sucks and their culture is trash. You can create a neighbor like that pretty consistently, by doing something like an archer rush. Since their culture sucks, they will have a ton of boredom, boosting your tourism against them. You will become influential, then dominant, very quickly, which upgrades your trade routes (they even boost growth in the origin city!). Generally this gives you some really powerful trade routes.

    So, my conclusion is that trade routes are a really strong but very inconsistent source of tourism. I don't think the 50% to all civs thing really addressed the inconsistency very well. Tourism ought to be based on great works and stuff, not trade routes. It seems like everyone is down to buff per turn tourism.
     
  19. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    I honestly don't like TR affecting Tourism either. My main reason is that you can technically get unlimited TR in certain games while struggle to get any in others. I agree that it's too inconsistent and doesn't even fit that well for CV.

    However, I'm not against the bonus tourism you get from Historic Events, Zoos and policies/tenets as those are limited and requires more work to achieve. We can keep those just fine and maybe slightly nerf the numbers for Historic Events tourism since you can technically get quite a few of those and it can make balancing the per turn tourism tougher.

    Regarding per turn tourism, the biggest issue is the theming bonuses. This is extremely hard now that AI rarely trade anything. Honestly, theming bonuses need a rework where you either only require works and/or artifacts of your own, and/or greater bonuses. I personally would like to see tourism from theming bonuses to be fairly significant because it's honestly overlooked and I don't like mechanics that aren't very useful in game.

    Great Works and Artifacts should be more significant as I think the player should have a tough decision. Do they go for the Great Work of Writing with their Great Writer or get more Culture? Do we want an endless GA or get that Great Work of Art to move us closer to a CV? I honestly don't mind seeing the yields (or just the Tourism yield) from the Great Works scaling with eras (at least I don't think they do now) so that getting them late game might be pretty significant. Great Musician is certainly another interesting discussion since both the Great Work of Music and their ability yield tourism. I guess it's fine to keep it where it is.

    I'm fine with everything else except for Forests and Jungles. I wouldn't mind seeing an improvement available late game that drastically increase the Tourism values of Forests and Jungles. Of course, there will be quite a bit of balancing as we don't know what numbers will be good. Still, I definitely won't miss seeing TR affect Tourism.
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Nothing wrong with Tourism from TRs except the amount, imo. I would do the following:
    • Reduce Tourism burst from finishing TRs by 25% to the main target
    • Reduce the tourism to all non-target civs to 33% of the target civ.
    • Make the tourism boost to all civs from the Statecraft policy 66% of tourism to a single target civ
      • less focused tourism, but more overall
      • It's a fairly late policy and it's a Policy choice, so I feel it should be a bit stronger than the caravansary/habor bonuses available to everyone.
    Maybe we can look at bumping the % modifiers back up a bit or giving some steroids to the CV ideology tenets if CV slows down a lot from these changes.

    I really, really must stress that I don't like the current iteration of zoos. They are a useful building for a CV-focused civ and do almost nothing for everyone else. They are a very frustrating building because they follow circuses and lock Stadiums behind them, which are both far more flexible buildings.

    Could something be done to make zoos less focused on just Tourism?

    Currently:
    Zoo
    2:c5culture:
    400:tourism: when completed
    1:tourism: to forests/jungles
    -1:c5unhappy: boredom

    Possible change:
    Zoo
    2:c5culture:
    400:tourism: when completed
    1:c5culture: to forests/jungles
    -1:c5unhappy: boredom
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
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