Going for Gold: Unit Supply

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?


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You may be seeing a wide vs tall descrepency there. There is definitely not too much supply for Tall civs imo

As tu said - I think the balance for Tall VS Wide is good, but in both cases I find the numbers rather high. If they were toned down by the same proportion, I think it would be rather beneficial for the game.
 
It seems none of the changes we have discussed were put into the latest July Beta. What I am would suggest is the following:

+6 Supply for Himeji, instead of 1 per City.

+4 Supply and +1 Per 2 Cities for Brandenburg, it will take 12 Cities to reach the original +10 Supply and let you gain more.




Btw, the Supply you get from Buildings is 10% of Population from the following Buildings: Walls, Castle, Arsenal, Military Base, Stable Harbor, Seaport, and Hospital; and +1 from Barracks, Armory, and Military Academy.
 
It seems none of the changes we have discussed were put into the latest July Beta. What I am would suggest is the following:

+6 Supply for Himeji, instead of 1 per City.

+4 Supply and +1 Per 2 Cities for Brandenburg, it will take 12 Cities to reach the original +10 Supply and let you gain more.




Btw, the Supply you get from Buildings is 10% of Population from the following Buildings: Walls, Castle, Arsenal, Military Base, Stable Harbor, Seaport, and Hospital; and +1 from Barracks, Armory, and Military Academy.

They weren't done because I currently don't see any issues with the supply system. I feel like most of the suggestions do little to improve the experience.

G
 
They weren't done because I currently don't see any issues with the supply system. I feel like most of the suggestions do little to improve the experience.
I second that the changes proposed have been so minor as to amount to nothing. If nothin drastic is proposed then there is value in having things be consistent.
 
They weren't done because I currently don't see any issues with the supply system. I feel like most of the suggestions do little to improve the experience.

I'll mention that Himeji Castle scales really well with large empires, which I'm not sure is intended. After capturing the castle as an imperialist England, my supply cap grew from ~60 to ~90, making my shaky empire nearly untouchable (29 cities in the atomic at that point). *This allowed me to continue my campaigns and vassalize the rest of the planet.

+4 Supply and +1 Per 2 Cities for Brandenburg, it will take 12 Cities to reach the original +10 Supply and let you gain more.

If anything, I would like to see Himeji tweaked to this, though I do like the idea of switching Brandenburg and Himeji's abilities.
 
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I thought about it a little more, and yeah, it does make sense why I think late-game count is a little high.

Thinking about supply from population: late-game, city populations are higher, and so they're naturally providing more supply cap simply from the fact that these cities are growing and that you have many more of them. That, more or less, seems like it would be enough, because the larger empire is generating larger supply all by itself. Throw in all the extra 10% bonuses everywhere (Seaport, Stable, Hospital, etc...), and then the effect re-doubles, rather unnecessarily I find. If these values were 5% across the board (from Walls all the way up to Arsenal), it would seem fine to me; and it's not obvious that something like the Pasture needs it at all. The length of game already provides enough supply all by itself.
 
I've been getting really annoyed by the drop in supply from discovering technologies. To the point where I will research a tech to just 1 turn left, then switch to a different tech, just to keep my supply in order. I wonder if there isn't something else we could use.
 
I thought about it a little more, and yeah, it does make sense why I think late-game count is a little high.

Thinking about supply from population: late-game, city populations are higher, and so they're naturally providing more supply cap simply from the fact that these cities are growing and that you have many more of them. That, more or less, seems like it would be enough, because the larger empire is generating larger supply all by itself. Throw in all the extra 10% bonuses everywhere (Seaport, Stable, Hospital, etc...), and then the effect re-doubles, rather unnecessarily I find. If these values were 5% across the board (from Walls all the way up to Arsenal), it would seem fine to me; and it's not obvious that something like the Pasture needs it at all. The length of game already provides enough supply all by itself.

I will say if you needed to remove some supply bonus somewhere stable and seaport to me would be the place to go. I feel those buildings are fine without the supply bonus
 
I've been getting really annoyed by the drop in supply from discovering technologies. To the point where I will research a tech to just 1 turn left, then switch to a different tech, just to keep my supply in order. I wonder if there isn't something else we could use.
But it works really well. It makes you value things other than science. It lowers your supply when you are more advanced and have access to higher unit versions (provided you can pay for the upgrade).

What would you use instead that won't backfire?
 
But it works really well. It makes you value things other than science. It lowers your supply when you are more advanced and have access to higher unit versions (provided you can pay for the upgrade).

What would you use instead that won't backfire?
I don't have a specific suggestion, but I find it really dumb that I invent currency and suddenly have a 5% penalty for food and hammers in all cities. Its really frustrating and it happens to me a lot pre-armory. I'm usually gifting almost all the units that appear via authority's policy because I don't have supply available.

I personally liked when science was a good yield and I wasn't punished so much for research. Its really gimmicky to research a tech all but one turn then switch, but its also really gimmicky to have an empire wide revolt because I discovered biology. In industrial era, I usually drop about 8 happiness every time I discover a tech, even with a religion that tries to fight unhappiness.
 
I don't have a specific suggestion, but I find it really dumb that I invent currency and suddenly have a 5% penalty for food and hammers in all cities. Its really frustrating and it happens to me a lot pre-armory. I'm usually gifting almost all the units that appear via authority's policy because I don't have supply available.

I personally liked when science was a good yield and I wasn't punished so much for research. Its really gimmicky to research a tech all but one turn then switch, but its also really gimmicky to have an empire wide revolt because I discovered biology. In industrial era, I usually drop about 8 happiness every time I discover a tech, even with a religion that tries to fight unhappiness.

I mean every mechanic is a gimmick until we decide it isn’t.
 
I've grown accustomed to the current unit supply system, with a slight dislike for the global/wide increases of wonders such as Brandeburg and Himeji, as the bonuses they give can amount to a fairly large change in supply. That, imo, helps the aggressive AI much more than the peaceful AI. But it's a small dislike and it's just a feeling.
 
Seaport is worth giving supply, to support the navy that now needs to get built in addition to your army.
 
Seaport is worth giving supply, to support the navy that now needs to get built in addition to your army.

I don't see how this makes much sense. If you've had a port city all this time that now can support a Seaport, then you've likely had and used a navy this whole time. There's no reason to suddenly get a 10% bonus because a Seaport comes along.
 
I don't see how this makes much sense. If you've had a port city all this time that now can support a Seaport, then you've likely had and used a navy this whole time. There's no reason to suddenly get a 10% bonus because a Seaport comes along.
The logic is that a coastal empire needs more supply cap as the game progresses to afford a larger ever-increasing navy.
In my opinion, Hospitals and Stables should lose the +10% Supply, but Arsenals and Military Bases should gain an extra +10% supply to compensate. These buildings no longer fight Crime, so they should get a buff in exchange.
 
The logic is that a coastal empire needs more supply cap as the game progresses to afford a larger ever-increasing navy.
In my opinion, Hospitals and Stables should lose the +10% Supply, but Arsenals and Military Bases should gain an extra +10% supply to compensate. These buildings no longer fight Crime, so they should get a buff in exchange.

Arsenals and Military Bases don't need the bonus they have presently, nevermind more.

Also, see the former point - your supply cap increases in virtue of the single fact (alone) that your population is ever-increasing as a city grows or you conquer territory. If you want to play as a sea empire, devoting materials to sea units is just part of the game. Your people don't just magically have more willingness to have troops because a Seaport is built one day. BTW, I like Warmongering, and I consider the limit one of the best parts of the game - and it isn't frustrating when it's too low, it's frustrating when it's needlessly high and gives me no opportunity to actually think what is the most important thing I ought to be building and make choices to optimize my power. Too much supply kills war strategy.
 
Arsenals and Military Bases don't need the bonus they have presently, nevermind more.
I'm not sure if I'm ever building arsenals or military bases again. I used to build arsenals just because of crime.

I personally think supply shouldn't be that restrictive. If there are moments where I have a huge army relative to my small empire, then yea I need to get more. For tall empires I do feel pressure to try and get supply wonders. If you have a massive empire, you will have a ton of supply, I think its fine.
 
I'm not sure if I'm ever building arsenals or military bases again. I used to build arsenals just because of crime.

I personally think supply shouldn't be that restrictive. If there are moments where I have a huge army relative to my small empire, then yea I need to get more. For tall empires I do feel pressure to try and get supply wonders. If you have a massive empire, you will have a ton of supply, I think its fine.
I only feel it restrictive when playing tall. Tall and peaceful is a dreadful combination, since supply is too short to defend against a warmonger, but that's all, at least until Emperor.
And if you depend too much on population for generating supply, it hurts more when progressing through techs.

Personally, I like the current supply for tall, but find it excessive for wide.
 
I find it too restrictive to Tall, if because the supply given makes it hard to defend yourself in both land and sea. People sometimes said that, when playing tall/Tradition, you absolutely have to avoid founding on coastal tiles due to the difficulty of raising a respectable navy with the given supply, and I agree (at least, in the higher difficulties). It's also hard to justify training a lot of utility units when playing tall, given how little you have; it's something that occasionally hits me with explorers/bandeirantes and caravels.

I think the supply for wide is fine, when considering the need for a navy. It's probably excessive for land armies only, but I think it is fine when having to raising a navy as well.

It's late for a sugggestion like this, but I kinda feel that there should be two types of supply: one for land units and one for naval ones. That could alleviate the issue I see for navies when playing tall. Maybe for the recon line as well, but that's likely too much to ask.
 
I only feel it restrictive when playing tall. Tall and peaceful is a dreadful combination, since supply is too short to defend against a warmonger, but that's all, at least until Emperor.
And if you depend too much on population for generating supply, it hurts more when progressing through techs.

Personally, I like the current supply for tall, but find it excessive for wide.

Really? Interesting. Playing Tall, I've never had an incident (and I play on Immortal) where I felt in any danger from a Warmonger in the least. Defending a Tall territory is so ridiculously easy with a few well-placed units.

Anyways, I do agree that it's excessive for Wide and would be willing to say that Wide could be less while Tall could remain the same.
 
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