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Going For Gold: World Congress Projects

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by pineappledan, Dec 19, 2019.

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Are World Congress Projects in a good state of balance?

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    41.2%
  2. No

    10 vote(s)
    58.8%
  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

    The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

    Important Notes:

    1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
    2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
    3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
    4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    background: Here are the world congress proposals in full:
    Spoiler Treasure Fleet :

    unlocked with at beginning of World Congress
    500:c5production: per civ

    Bronze: 1 Free Frigate and 300 :c5goldenage: Golden Age Points
    Silver: A free Great Admiral and 3 units are :c5gold: maintenance-free

    Gold: The Grand Canal World Wonder is constructed in your :c5capital:capital
    1:c5culture:
    +1 :trade:Trade Route Slot
    Naval Ranged and Naval Melee units gain +10% :c5strength: Attack, +1 Sight, and can heal outside friendly territory​

    Spoiler World's Fair :

    Unlocked with Industrialization
    1250:c5production: per Civ

    Bronze: Free Social Policy
    Silver: :c5culture:Culture increased by 33% for 20 turns

    Gold: The Crystal Palace World Wonder is constructed in your :c5capital:capital
    1:c5culture:
    +2:c5production: production and :c5science:science to Factories on Empire
    The Empire enters a :c5goldenage:Golden Age​

    Spoiler Global Wargames :

    Unlocked with Replaceable Parts
    1100:c5production: per Civ

    Bronze: 1 Free Infantry and 4 units are :c5gold: maintenance-free
    Silver: A free Great General and 4:c5happy:Happiness

    Gold: +25% Attack for all units for 30 turns

    Spoiler International Games :

    Unlocked with Radio
    2250:c5production: per Civ

    Bronze: :tourism:Tourism increased by 50% for 20 turns
    Silver: A free Great Person of your choice

    Gold: The Olympic Village World Wonder is constructed in your :c5capital:capital
    3:c5culture:3:c5happy:
    25% of the :c5culture:Culture from World Wonders and Tiles is converted to :tourism:Tourism in this city.​

    Spoiler United Nations :

    Unlocked with Atomic Theory
    2250:c5production: per Civ

    Bronze: Free Great Diplomat
    Silver: 25:c5influence: with all City States and a Consulate is built in your :c5capital:Capital (+1 Delegate to the World Congress)

    Gold: The United Nations World Wonder is constructed in your :c5capital:capital
    +1 Delegate to the World Congress
    25:c5influence:Influence with all City States when you expend a Great Person
    The Empire enters a :c5goldenage:Golden Age
    Triggers an immediate Special Session of the World Congress​

    Spoiler International Space Station :

    Unlocked with Satellites
    2750:c5production: per Civ

    Bronze: A 1-time :c5science:science boost
    Silver: A free Great Scientist

    Gold: The ISS World Wonder is constructed in your :c5capital:capital
    +1:c5production: from Scientists and +1:c5science: from Engineers specialists on Empire
    Great Scientists provide 33% more :c5science: from Bulbing​
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
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  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    So my own thoughts:
    My own opinion is that the Treasure fleet, the World's Fair, and the United Nations are all very good, relevant and fun WC races.

    The International Games is almost there. It's not quite strong enough, and that mostly comes down to the 1st place wonder. The Olympic Village is only slightly stronger than a Hotel. It is a very weak wonder, especially for how late it is, and there is very little worth in exceeding Silver on this WC proposal as a result.

    Global Wargames and ISS are both very bad proposals and if they are submitted for a vote I never vote for them and I never invest past silver for either of them.

    Wargames:
    The bronze bonus is weak, but it's bronze so it's not too important. Maybe increase the number of maintenance-free units to 5?
    The silver bonus is very weak. Another GGeneral at this late stage is probably not something anyone but autocracy players care much about.
    The Gold bonus is plainly not worth the investment and it is very, very awkward. If you were planning on declaring war on someone you would be building up military strength, not building a WC project. 25% CS probably doesn't cover anti-warmonger fervour at this stage, and it's a very large overall production investment into a resolution that puts you in a very awkward position to execute on.

    Some ways to spruce up placing Gold for Wargames:
    • Move +25% CS to Silver. World's Fair and International Games have their timed bonus on a lower reward, and having the entire 1st place benefit be temporary sucks. This also results in a very scary incentive to at least make silver, because 3-4 civs could probably reach the 25% CS bonus and could target the civs who didn't at least pitch in.
    • Move the free GGeneral and :c5happy:Happiness to 1st place, along with some other bonuses
    • 45 XP for all units for Gold
    • The lack of a wonder at the end of this race is pretty conspicuous. It would be really nice if this resolution had a wonder. Given that this is a WWI-era resolution, Here are some ideas:
    • I would be happy to make some art assets for a Wargames wonder, if people agree on what it should be.

    ISS:
    Unlocking at Satellites, I have literally never seen this WC resolution pass with enough time to actually build it unless I have been fooling around at the end game. It is unlocked AFTER a WC resolution that literally can end the game (United Nations)
    The bronze and silver bonuses are functionally no different. A G Scientist this late is bulbed, so 1 is an instant :c5science: boost and the other is an instant :c5science:boost with an extra button push.
    The ISS is a terribly weak wonder. Hubble comes out at the same tech level as the WC proposal unlocks, and by the time you have actually voted for the proposal to move forward someone is probably working future tech already.
    Who exactly is this wonder for? The Science leader will have their choice of 3 better wonders to build while everyone else wastes their time on a wonder that gives +1 yield to only 2 different specialists. Meanwhile, the new Nuclear plant (the worst power plant) costs fewer hammers and gives more than twice the power.

    I don't really know how you can rescue this WC proposal. To start, I might have it unlock at Computers, just so there are 10 more turns for this proposal to even exist. The ISS desperately needs to be reassessed. I don't think 5:c5science: to engineers and 5:c5production: to scientists, and +100% bulbing on both engineers and scientists would convince me to drop the hammers to compete for this wonder.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
  4. TranceBlossom

    TranceBlossom Warlord

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    I agree with basically everything you said. ISS's fundamental problem is it's made for people going for science victory, but those hammers are better spent on the other space age wonders or, you know, the spaceship parts themselves.

    I agree that it should be unlocked earlier so it has more time to be relevant. In terms of effects that would be worthwhile for science-victors to go for...all I can think of is a MASSIVE science boost (same as CERN) or a big boost to production/spaceship parts (basically same as Hubble). Neither of these are particular exciting when other wonders already do the same thing.

    What about a big instant hammer yield in the capital whenever a new technology is researched? If all your secondary cities are contributing to the project, those cities' hammers for the project are basically getting converted into instant hammer yields in the capital over time, which can be used for wonders & spaceship parts.

    Other Spitballing Ideas:
    -A free spaceship part
    -Something to help prevent other victory types...a culture boost when technology is researched? extra delegates somehow? Fitting it thematically would be hard...
     
    phantomaxl1207, cerk and pineappledan like this.
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I like your ideas on Global Wargames, solid proposal. I especially like how this creates some very offensive wars with a the possibilities of both sides having an attack bonus and therefore a desire to use it.

    For ISS, honestly I think pushing the proposal earlier as you noted is probably enough. If this proposal comes out before I've worked on the various late game wonders than there is incentive to start with this wonder as a starting point to move into the next several. If it needs a bit more, you could just make it cheaper as well.

    For International Games, I would consider swapping the bronze and silver. The problem is, the tourism bonus is dirt worthless to everyone except for CV players...in which case its amazing. So I think the CV players should have to work a bit harder for their bonus, and then having a nice bronze bonus encourages more participation. I think the Gold is decent enough to keep as is.
     
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  6. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    Reposting from my old topic:


    International Games – Radio

    (C) – This resolution is a huge boon for tourism civs, providing an easy 50% tourism and sometimes a great person. The gold prize is very lackluster though, having equivalent stats to a hotel, +3 happiness, and +3 culture.

    I haven’t a clue what to do with the gold prize, as I never found the hotel effects to be very good.


    Global Wargames – Replaceable Parts

    (C) – A warmonger project. The gold prize is pretty good. I’m a little tempted to say it should have the razing bonus like Martial Spirit as well. Silver is a little underwhelming with just a GG and +4 happiness. Bronze is just one infantry and some unit maintenance reduction, which is pretty fair I think (don’t want all civs to suddenly get a stronger military).

    I think the silver prize should feature some kind of unhappiness reduction rather than give a flat +4. Maybe an increase in the unhappiness reduction for puppets and/or +1 happiness for Courthouses?


    I think everything else is pretty good.
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Considering the UN proposal can potentially win the game, it certainly is strange that the ISS proposal doesn't feel like it even helps a SV player.
    I don't think you could give a free spaceship part because you don't know what the player may have already built, but you could give the ISS an additional +50%-100% towards spaceship parts in the :c5capital:Capital, so if they have a Spaceship factory, they have very large modifiers on the parts.
    OOoo, I like the idea of 1200:c5production: instant boost on tech research for the ISS. Gives a science player reason to keep hitting Future tech over and over again so they can finish their parts. a SV victory may as well sell all his science buildings once he finishes the tree right now.
    Yeah it certainly would give WWI era some "powderkeg of Europe feel to it".
    I'm surprised to hear that. I would think that a World Wonder this late should be on par with the National Visitor Center (+100%:tourism: from :c5culture: wonders and tiles and +100%:tourism: from :greatwork:GWs)

     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
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  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the ISS needs to come earlier. Last science victory I had the policy only got passed with 6 turns remaining before I won. Making it come earlier gives us more options to give it interesting features.

    Stacking can be really valuable though. Even if the Olympic Village is less efficient than other options, you still want it for tall tradition. If you want to give this wonder a small buff, make it more friendly to wide (like 1 happy per hotel or something).
     
  9. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    I voted "No" and pretty much agree with the assessment in this post (pineappledan's third post); I especially like moving the CS boost to Silver and giving a nice chunk of XP (and some other rewards) to all units for the winner (Gold) of the Wargames project.

    Edit: changed to "Yes" with the 12-20 update...I still think Wargames Gold could be better (free XP sounds nice), but WC projects are in a much better place now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I wonder if the olympic village should do something related to tourism, but not laser-focused on it? The bronze reward only helps a CV player, but everyone will probably try to invest at least enough to get a free GP of their choice.

    Then the Olympic Village could boost Tourism-related buildings, but not actually be a targeted Tourism battery itself? Hard to compete with Cristo Redentor for that title.

    Olympic Village
    • 3:c5culture:3:c5happy:
    • 3:c5greatperson:Great Musician Points
    • Stadiums and Hotels gain 3:c5culture: and 1:c5happy:
    I'd compete for that. a Potential 6:c5culture: and 2:c5happy: in all cities would motivate me.
     
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  11. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I am voting "Yes" because I don't think it's too imbalanced. Just a few minor tweaks needed.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    What about this for the ISS?
    • Bronze: Free Great Scientist
    • Silver: Launch Pad building is constructed in your :c5capital:Capital
      • Launch Pad:
      • +25%:c5production:Production towards Spaceship Parts
      • 100:c5production:Production in City, scaling with Era, whenever you research a new technology
    • Gold: ISS Wonder is constructed in your :c5capital:Capital
      • ISS:
      • 5:c5production: to Scientist Specialists and 5:c5science: to Engineer Specialists
      • GScientists bulb for 50% more
      • 100%:c5science: Science for 10 turns
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Now that I've seen the 12-20 changes, I'm going to change my vote to 'yes' as well. It looks like only minor tweaks after a bit of testing on the new stuff would be needed.

    I would love to see the addition of a wargames wonder, if only for consistency.
    I don't think ISS is there yet, but the biggest problems have been addressed (unlocking too late, ISS being too weak to help win game). There is still the problem of Bronze and silver rewards being too similar to each other though.
    Olympic Village also gives more :tourism:tourism to Hotels, but the Cristo Redentor already does that too. It would be nice if it was changed to something else.
     
  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I made a Menin Gate icon as a possible Wargames 1st place wonder
    upload_2019-12-23_15-26-9.png upload_2019-12-23_15-53-24.png
    William Longstaff's 'Menin Gate at Midnight' would make a killer wonder splash screen:
    Spoiler :

    Wonder Quote:
    "Why do they never tell us that you are poor devils like us, that your mothers are just as anxious as ours, and that we have the same fear of death, and the same dying and the same agony—Forgive me, comrade; how could you be my enemy?"
    - Erich Maria Remarque
    What do you think?

    EDIT:
    here’s some other paintings by Longstaff
    The Cenotaph
    The Vimy Memorial
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
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  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Here's the relevant changes from the 12/20 version in full:

    Spoiler Global Wargames :

    Unlocked with Replaceable Parts
    1100:c5production: per Civ

    Bronze: 1 Free Infantry and 3 units are :c5gold: maintenance-free
    Silver:+25% Attack for all units for 30 turns and 4 units are :c5gold: maintenance-free
    Gold: +5 :c5happy:, 1:c5capital: Great General, and 5 units are :c5gold: maintenance-free

    Spoiler International Games :

    Unlocked with Radio
    2250:c5production: per Civ

    Bronze: :tourism:Tourism increased by 50% for 20 turns
    Silver: A free Great Person of your choice

    Gold: The Olympic Village World Wonder is constructed in your :c5capital:capital
    3:c5culture:3:c5happy:
    2:c5gold:2:tourism: to Stadiums on Empire
    25% of the :c5culture:Culture from World Wonders and Tiles is converted to :tourism:Tourism in this city.​

    Spoiler International Space Station :

    Unlocked with Rocketry
    2750:c5production: per Civ
    Bronze: A 1-time :c5science:science boost
    Silver: A free Great Scientist

    Gold: The ISS World Wonder is constructed in your :c5capital:capital
    +1:c5production: from Scientists and +1:c5science: from Engineers specialists on Empire
    200:c5production: in this city whenever you research a technology, scaling with era
    Great Scientists provide 33% more :c5science: from Bulbing​


    My thoughts:
    I think Olympic Village is almost there with the new Stadium buff. Ideally, I think the Village could give a more generally useful boost, not quite so focused on :tourism:Tourism.
    I would suggest 2:c5gold:2:c5culture:to Stadiums instead, which fits more with the base yields of the OV as well

    The :c5production: on ISS is great. Love it, and it gives SV players justification not to sell off all their :c5science:buildings once they reach future tech, which was a lame strategy. Maybe the bonus could be reduced to 150:c5production: though? The instant yields are 1400/1600 in Information/Future right now, and I think 1050/1300:c5production: is enough.

    I don't think Wargames is there yet...
    • The WC proposal gives 12 :c5gold: maintenance-free units. Combined with the Silver bonus for Grand Canal, that's 15 :c5gold:maintenance-free units total. This is a bit repetitive and 10 free units from bronze/silver from Treasure Fleet/Wargames is enough.
    • The gold bonus for Wargames is "+5 :c5happy:, 1:c5capital: Great General, and 5 units are :c5gold: maintenance-free". The Silver bonus for Treasure Fleet is "1:c5capital: Great Admiral, and 3 units are :c5gold: maintenance-free". These two bonuses are very comparable, which isn't a good look when one is a 1st place bonus two eras later, and requires substantially more :c5production:investment.
    • I really was hoping to get some feedback on the idea of adding a WC Wargames wonder to 1st place. I think that address both the over-reliance on maintenance-free units for Wargames, and the uncharitable comparisons with Treasure Fleet.
    What would people like to see for a 1st place Wargames wonder? @Gazebo, I would like to hear your input on this as well and whether you think adding a Wargames wonder would be a good idea. My opinion is below:

    Spoiler Pineappledan's wargames wonder opinion :
    In general I think adding a wonder here makes a lot of sense. It's the only WC proposal that doesn't have one and, as a result, it's the only WC proposal that can't be augmented by various policies, beliefs, and WC proposals (Goddess of Beauty, Heritage, Cultural Heritage Sites, etc). As the only WC proposal without a wonder, it's also the only WC proposal that can't be conquered and taken away.

    Currently there are no inter-war period wonders that I am aware of. With the Wargames proposal coming out at Replaceable parts (same tech as Rifleman), adding a war monument commemorating WWI fits very well with the timing. I like the idea of adding the Menin Gate more than any other possible candidate; it would be the first Benelux wonder in the game, there's great art for a wonder splash already, and no one else has released a Menin gate wonder for Civ V that I am aware of.

    Here's a possible Menin Gate proposal. I don't have strong opinions on what the wonder should actually do yet, so I would really appreciate some other people's input. I would very much like to get away from even more free GGs and more maintenance-free units though. There are plenty of those bonuses elsewhere:

    Menin Gate:
    1:c5culture:5:c5happy:
    1:c5greatperson:Great Writer Point
    2:c5culture: when an owned unit dies, scaling with Era. (very small bonus, definitely not worth throwing units away and probably worse than deleting them, but very flavorful as a war dead memorial)
    2 slots for :greatwork: Great Works of Writing (must be from the same Era and from civilizations other than your own. 5:c5culture:5:c5science:when themed)
    5:c5culture: per Defensive Pact (New Code)

    Ideally, I would want a war memorial wonder to focus on strengthening/rewarding defensive posture. A bonus for each defensive pact would be good representation of Belgium's situation in WWI, where their invasion prompted the UK (and her colonies) to join the war. I think the bronze and silver bonuses emphasize warmongering adequately, and I would like if the 1st place wonder 'transcended' that, in a way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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  17. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    I wonder if Global Wargames should just give some Supply?
     
  18. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I think the issue with the ISS would be at least partially resolved if a Science Victory (really a Time Victory) we're put in its proper place, which is the point of Future Tech - I mean, much of the techs represented are Moon-savvy techs that reflect the real world, but we're talking about Centauri here, so moving up that Victory Condition further would give us more end-game use in general.
     
  19. kenneth1221

    kenneth1221 Warlord

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    I feel like that's a point with the end of the tech tree in general -- right now, it's somewhat 2013 and doesn't reflect how society and culture have evolved in the past 7 or so years. Entering space and GDRs are there, but little mention of cyberwarfare and autonomous drones. Warfare, espionage, and science have all evolved in the time since 2013, and I think it might be worthwhile to have a conversation on whether the tech tree should change to reflect that, but not here.

    For relevance's sake, in simplest form, are you suggesting just shifting the spaceship parts to Future Tech? Or on some level will it become necessary to fold Future Worlds into VP (I kid, but that would be awesome).
     
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  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    To me that's fine modmod territory but not necessary in the core mod. Civ 5 VP is a great game...but the game was made for a specific time when it was made. No reason to start changing game fundamentals because the game is now historically old.
     
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