Going to Mars in 76 turns!

[EscapedGoat]

Hi,

Found this on the humankind reddit from the user "From_internets". Talk about fast! he was even nice enough to write down his general strategy/milestones and culture picks. It's a production-heavy start, using quite cleverly also the achmenid persians for +2 cities, and then going science. Interestingly, there's no turkish swedish cheese, as the game ends before that and taking full advantage of Australia last

https://www.reddit.com/r/HumankindT.../this_time_we_went_to_mars_in_76_turnsnormal/

Game overview:

Tribal:

Great spawn with lots of lucky timings with food -> spawning new unit and moving in to ransack, or having isolated highground against mammoth for a solo takedown. Resulting in 18 tribes at turn 9 with 260 influence and 2 outposts ready to become 2 cities by turn 10. Chose the 'farmer' tribal trait, though i think it doesn't matter too much.

Egypt(turn 10)

Settled 2 cities on river/forest locations and had 2 scouts ready to settle their nextdoor territores for 20+30 influence same turn. Disbanded 3-5 scouts and put 2 on science and 2 on industry in both cities. Build order was pottery->ED->ED->makersQ->lumberyard->river irrigation on both cities, used landraiser on both cities right after forestry was done. By turn 25 i nabbed 2 neutral cities and the civic that grants +1 city for 4/3 cities. Going 1 over the cap only gives -10 influence, so very worth it. Turn 25 also claimed Hanging Gardens and rushed it with all cities on silk, for +30% industry and +60 stability on all cities. Here 1 city builds 4 chariot archers, whichever is closer to a neighbor.

Archemid Persians(turn 27-30)

With an extra +2 city cap, we're ready to on the offensive. Had demands built up through ancient era against nearest neighbor, and grabbed 2 of his cities around T35 for 6 cities, 1 over cap. I think i also took a last neutral city around this time, and researched the tech giving +1 city cap. Most cities just had 1 territory attached for 30 influence at this time, and build out makers quarters, and a few ED for influence. Most of my era stars to advance came from builder(3), agrarian(2-3), tech(1-3) which can be heavily gamed by saving cheap techs to give stars when needed.

Khmer(Turn 40)

This is when the ball really starts rolling. With 7 cities, many of them new, the Baray really shines. Used land raiser mode in newer cities. They get up to speed in no time, and some of the old core cities start building out science districts when the '+5science on science districts' tenet kicks in. A second war against my neighbor added an 8th city during this era as well. Here you should also have the influence to start attaching 3'rd territories to your cities for maximum Baray. Also, a stack of 4 ballista elefants lets you bulldoze your neighbors if you can handle more cities.

Joseon(Turn 52)

Science time. Building out lots of science districts and some makersQ in newer cities. Some core cities go into collective minds when ED done, and beeline for the luxury manufactory, which will eliminate all stability issues. Next beeline coal, then electricity.

French(Turn64)

A lot of cities will be on the cusp of building universities and the mid/late game science buildings, but it is a trap. The return on investment is too low for how few turns are left to play, so we're looking for just enough new districts to get the era stars, and then go into collective minds. For tech beeline oil, then rocketry. As soon as you see oil, go build outposts with some scouts(we need 3). the 2 aluminum should be easy enough. The remaining (?) will be uranium, of which we will need 1 for mars. After rocketry, research uranium visibility, and we're done with research.

Australia(turn 74)

Only 1 turn was spend with Aussies for that sweet +20% prod, but more importantly land raiser mode on all cities to complete mars project in 1 turn.

Hope it was to use for some of you!

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That's fast! discuss

 

[Victoria]

Land raiser/collective minds are just awesome and I often under-utilise them even though I often go France.

 

[Taefin]

Oh whaaat!? I totally didn’t realize Mars used the same technology as satellite, no wonder folks are finishing so quickly!

As Victoria said in other thread, seems like the early mammoths are really the requirement for this to work. Also the undefended free cities and and that together these get you ahead of the AI enough to conquer with 4 units.

A balance to Neolithic influence and plopping 4 units into each free city on founding should be enough to delay strategies like this to where the AI can defend itself against 4 EU archers.

For late game balance, seems Mars mission should require one of the capstone techs, but there are many other issues as well.

 

[NombreyApellido]

i got 88 in my first attempt with the same template. some notes

i played on large, 3 continents, new world (but didn't bother), 7 all female personas plus me (Lucy)

that 18 population by turn 9 is very unlikely even using the suicide exploit and recruiting 2 extra tribes from each outposts

i took storytellers, i feel there's no need to put egypt in full industry mode

i also built holy site and was religious leader the whole run, but got strangely beaten to the 2nd tenet. took the forest one

claimed and immediately built Giza on top of 2 hot springs, 1 geyser and 1 cave and a river srping (quite strong location)

claimed and later built Hanging Gardens on top of silk

got to relive a take/retake dumb bit the AI is able to pull when standing next to a 0 size city (of course the player isn't able to do the same) when liberated hattusa fell to the nubians and srted my longest war

in medieval i run into -400 inf because i took the (magenta boudica) horrible mess of a kerma [7 markers Q cluster] and panic spawned though cool napata. she was at the time the 2nd ranked but 500 fame behind

got quagmired at urkes size 3 that had 4 archers, 2 chariots, a warrior and a spear on a cliff and with a river. took me all 5 turns to secure it and lost two scouts being unable to upgrade them as i didn't get a 2nd horse until later on

yellow elissa was the mauryans when i invaded from the south. she was 2500 points behind as the new second, did not vassalage. that got me the whole landmass when going in to the build phase with khmer. from then on it was basically as described in the op

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i feel so much depends on the map that this isn't actual speedrunning in the typical sense, meaning you optimize a specific scenario... i nade quite a few mistakes that proved costly but i don't think i could have done a whole lot better

what i enjoyed the most is that it gives the middle game a sense of urgency i didn't have in "regular" runs for me... everything from medieval on feels like a chore to me. if some day playing specific eras is possible, i don't think i'd move past classical EVER

Moderator Action: Please help us keep the forums family friendly by using appropriate language. Edited your post to bring it in line with forum rules. Thanks, leif

 

[Taefin]

i got 88 in my first attempt with the same template. some notes

What difficulty was that, I’ve never claimed an ancient wonder, and I’m sure the mammoths help get the first one, but I’m surprised to hear you got two.

My understanding is this strategy relies on maximizing the production/district ratio to keep build times trivially short. Was that your experience? If so I’m guessing that’s adding mechanics that require the other districts would be important for ensuring that optimal play requires balancing trade offs.

 

[NombreyApellido]

i play humankind level exclusively

three actually, topkaky is needed too but i guess you refer to ancient ones

INF from neo is spent rather early buying extractors and activating civics of which i take prof armies before the one with 50 off

curiosities add quite a lot so i keep scouts on them

Pyramids, potteries and liberty ideology. gunung mulu helped too on the thebes plot. got nok at vinicunca later too

edit: my method of saving inf is to claim good plots cheaply and gift them to the greys then taking over that city later by conquest. i did only one attach/detach cycle in this particular run and it was for making room for giza. can't think of any other thing but the number of cities, going well over the cap (5 at one point) and ending with a total of 16 most of them with only 2 territories

i've always played with efficiency in mind. i hate the look of bunched up districts

also, in the late game cities are mostly in research mode so you rely on buyout for exhibition pavillions so a steady stream of money is important too

to me, fun is more important than balance so i rather learn and get good as it is

i don't reloads but i don't go about expecting the devs to put anti scumsave measures in the name of levelling the playing field

sorry, got a bit ranty there. nothing against you in particular, just have strong opinions on the balance subject thats all

 

[Taefin]

Oh awesome stuff, thanks for sharing! That liberate city is something that sounds worth a second look

 

[DrCron]

i feel so much depends on the map that this isn't actual speedrunning in the typical sense, meaning you optimize a specific scenario...

Yup, this is why I don't usually go for optimizing speed in games such as this one or Civ 3-6. You need to restart several times to get the perfect map, which is just boring. I like the strategy though. If another player goes through the chore of restarting several times, it's fun to see what can be achieved.

 

[NombreyApellido]

i'm using the seed world option to try to find a favorable map that allows the growth claimed in the op, which should be science curiosities for the legacy trait and several sanctuaries close by to spawn mammoths and good city locations to land in ancient era on turn 10

so far i have 35 tries, no "perfect" result: either they are food curiosities and deer, poor city location, no rivers nearby,

13579 for instance spawns you in sterile terrain, has deers but allows for a turn 5 growth star and turn 7 knowledge; it has everest close by, 5 sage deposits but somewhat distant horse and copper

this is on normal size, large pangea, 7 AI

if people is interested in exploring, saving and sharing seeds we could open a dedicated thread to collect them all

seeds allow for a replicable scenario and are a workaround for reloading and all the problems it generates

 

[fortydayweekend]

There's also the map editor

 

[NombreyApellido]

there's distribution patterns for resources and features... if captured properly, i don't see why not

but then, a parametric world is done in seconds and ready for a quick test to approve or discard it

 

[fortydayweekend]

there's distribution patterns for resources and features... if captured properly, i don't see why not

but then, a parametric world is done in seconds and ready for a quick test to approve or discard it

I was thinking more along the lines of a map with every territory covered in forested river waterfalls with 15 luxuries in each, and all the AI on islands surrounded by sea ice

 

[EscapedGoat]

i'm using the seed world option to try to find a favorable map that allows the growth claimed in the op, which should be science curiosities for the legacy trait and several sanctuaries close by to spawn mammoths and good city locations to land in ancient era on turn 10

so far i have 35 tries, no "perfect" result: either they are food curiosities and deer, poor city location, no rivers nearby,

I have myself achieved around 16 tribes by turn 10, with all 3 ancient stars accounted for and 5+ mammoth hunts. However, this exceptional start calls for something like 10 mammoth hunts by turn 10 (assuming around 200 influence from hunts, 60-ish from curiosities). It's a 1 in a 100 start for sure and not something you can casually replicate, so it limits the practical "application" and "milestone" aspect of that part of the strategy.

However, disregarding the exceptional start, if you can achieve the same he achieved by turn 15 (orders of magnitude easier), you should still be able to finish by turn 81-ish, which is still blazingly fast to me. Since I have more time to theorycraft these days than to actually play, I haven't played any games since I saw this reddit post, but I will for sure aim (and reroll ) for such a start next time I play to attempt to "copycat" this approach, to see if it is a solid strategy or a "fluke". Despite the freakishly strong opening, I still believe it is quite solid for the following reasons:

1. Start is important, but time is not that critical given you are going for Egypt (not Harrapans, so less time pressure). Landraiser is key i guess.
2. Persians should still be selectable despite being somewhat slower to classical. Not sure how much of the weight these +2 extra cities pull, but imagine it's rather a lot since it's a whole lot more expensive to attach territories to your core cities. Alternatively, you could probably go Greeks or something like that if you want to be peaceful, which will slow you down, but maybe not as much as you would think? The Greek special district is very strong for science. You could also go Maya, they also have good bonuses.
3. Part of the plan here is to be going Joseon and French after Khmer, which is just a solid play to switch over to playing science early enough seems to be key. Also use the collective minds is key.
4. Ending with Australians is brilliant for land raiser and builder bonuses.

I'll let you know how i fare when i get around to it

 

[Cakeathon]

It's cool just to confirm the current balance. Tried it casually with a below-average start just following the general idea, works well enough. mammoths and silk will speed things up a lot but the core is really just to maximize industry -> grab a ton of free cities to maximize territories -> barays everywhere -> convert all your industry into science with quarters and collective minds.

Despite essentially being a science victory, most science is just converted production, science itself as a yield is of minimal importance for most of the game, you only really produce it in any significant quantity in the end game, and a lot of it is just your joseon/france EDs.

Might be worth a try to just go negative influence and ignore city cap, probably pick maya to once again maximize production even more, or maybe mauryans for the EU upgrade. I didn't get the feeling I really needed influence for anything other than to get more territory after the early game but on many maps you can have more territory by just ignoring city cap and conquering as much stuff as possible.

This whole thing is also made worse by the star balance, it's just so easy to get the agrarian and builder stars when you have lots of territories allowing for ridiculously fast era progression if you just expand enough. Ironically expansion gets you more builder/agrarian stars than actual expansion stars, the expansion stars being ridiculously hard to get in comparison.

 

[NombreyApellido]

I have myself achieved around 16 tribes by turn 10, with all 3 ancient stars accounted for and 5+ mammoth hunts. However, this exceptional start calls for something like 10 mammoth hunts by turn 10 (assuming around 200 influence from hunts, 60-ish from curiosities). It's a 1 in a 100 start for sure and not something you can casually replicate, so it limits the practical "application" and "milestone" aspect of that part of the strategy.

i don't think the number of units weights that much

but such an low turn with those high yields matters a huge lot IMO

also, spending more early turns means more total inf since you can get online both your potteries and pyramids sooner, which it's a huge plus if you're building Giza and hanging gardens (my last aborted run was because i got one turn late to claim the former)
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i tested only setting Egyptian cities to full industry mode once i unlocked writing and to speed Giza by one turn. before that i played with citizens between researchers and worker slot to speed up techs and builds for at least a turn (money is also spent here to buy the last turn when possible)

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what i believe to be more decisive is AI aggression, particularly among the different factions themselves. whenever they spend some time in an in-fight, the early eras are a but breeze
otherwise, the player will witness the full on cheat mode of the AI, being able to apparently buyout units and fortifications despite having a weak, poorly located city with a just couple of makers Q at best

 

[EscapedGoat]

i don't think the number of units weights that much

but such an low turn with those high yields matters a huge lot IMO

also, spending more early turns means more total inf since you can get online both your potteries and pyramids sooner, which it's a huge plus if you're building Giza and hanging gardens (my last aborted run was because i got one turn late to claim the former)

Yes, low turn high inf yield neolithic = great success, no doubt about that. However, Neolithic age yield is strongly correlated to how many tribes you have (and luck with mammoth spawns of course). There is a "more is exponentially more" at play here. An example: hitting the 2 first curiosities as food to spawn a new tribe is orders of magnitude better than hitting 2 abandoned ruin things for "just" influence and science, as it will double your scouting potential, picking up again more curiosities, hunts or whatever. So I would argue they are interlinked: more pop in neo = more of everything faster.

For my attempt at this strategy, instead of making a new map I reloaded my turn 10, 16-tribe, 5 mammoth hunt save which I used for a strong Harrapan game and this time played Neolithic to turn 15 instead before picking Egypt. Guess what? those 5 turns gave me a staggering 21 more tribes, and allowed me to kill ~3-4 more mammoths further into the map (playing Pangea), Giving me 37(!) tribes by turn 15 and 265 influence. I picked up vastly more curiosities. This translates into 2 immediate cities at turn 15, and extra 2 territories coming online just a couple of turns later (you need to found the outposts in ancient to lower the cost of them, 65 inf for the third in neo is steep). With Egypt, if you go landraiser immediately and settle 4 pop (2 industry, 2 science), you can build the pottery influence thing in 1 turn and the ED in 2 turns after that. No doubt the strongest position you could have on influence generation early.

The question I was asking myself those turns before I had the resources was: can staying in neolithic 1 more turn give me more than 13-20 influence, which is the yield you would get from a city? if the answer is "yes", it's the best way to make progress. for most of those turns I was killing a mammoth a turn, and picking up curiosities also. This far surpassed what I would be getting if I went ancient earlier, esp. before I had the 160 infuence for city 2. I think though that once you can settle 2 cities and get the pottery thing up and running immediately with 4 immediate pop in each city, that is starting to look stronger than loitering in neo (9+4+9+4+8+4 inf a turn from the cities at 4 pop each with pottery?)

In theory, I should finish this game only 5 turns slower than the original strat posted, but all things are not equal, I am playing a lower difficulty level (empire?) so independent cities are spawning later for me for example (more around turn 30) so I expect to be further delayed. I guess this is an example of what happens in CIV also - deity level you can do some things that are delayed on the lower difficulty levels due to the fact that the game progresses more slowly, so paradoxically you can finish faster on higher difficulties. I also did not have that crazy luck with luxuries on this map, so i get less out of hanging gardens for example. Opponents are slow to get their resources hooked up. Etc etc.

 

[NombreyApellido]

i fully agree


apart from difficulty, number and type of opponents play a role too... if i stay at neo past turn 13, egypt is taken by mama occlo (7 ai in total). i can do 14 units camping at sanctuaries instead of burning them right away, but three or more are needed since they spawn a mammoth every other turn

i still feel the described run is either a fluke, there was a huge lot of reloading or a "trainer" was used

the strategy is valid though

 

[fortydayweekend]

difficulty, number and type of opponents play a role too... if i stay at neo past turn 13, egypt is taken by mama occlo (7 ai in total)

Yeah I was thinking there's a trade off between having more AI to conquer and being able to delay Ancient while still getting Egypt. How many AI do you actually need in the game? Can it be done with only Grey conquests for example?

 

[EscapedGoat]

i can do 14 units camping at sanctuaries instead of burning them right away, but three or more are needed since they spawn a mammoth every other turn

i still feel the described run is either a fluke, there was a huge lot of reloading or a "trainer" was used

the strategy is valid though

is that how sanctuaries work? I’m usually to busy burning them to the ground to notice . Do you think it could make sense to «farm» the sanctuary over just burning it down and pressing on with a new tribe? Maybe this is why i struggle so much to find enough mammoths .

I agree the original run is not realistic on the milestones, the start is way too rigged and not reproducible unless you spend a whole day rerolling and replaying starts (might as well use an editor then ) I think finishing before turn 100 is still a great achievement for less optimal starts using the same strategy (strategy seems really solid though).

 

[NombreyApellido]

i can only surmise from observations, but there's mammoth exclusive sanctuaries and there's deer ones. i burn the later type and keep the former. in normal speed, they spawn wildlife every other turn when killed immediately

those that are located in ridged (almost) enclosed areas are particularly valuable since prey can't run away and you can leave a 2 unit hunting party alone to avoid the food being shared, demanding splitting and rejoin later on

lairs are to be burnt down, though they're far less common in neo

if neighbor jumped eras, i go after scouts too. they carry food and INF as well