1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Gold vs everything

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Takeda, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. Takeda

    Takeda Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Location:
    Little Canada
    Am I the only one who has an issue with the fact that the resource game in Civ V has essentially been boiled down to a balancing act between gold and happiness? Gold is simply overpowered and a surplus of gold can be easily used to more than mitigate the effects of a shortage of any other resource.

    low production: just buy everything you need

    low food/science: just bribe a bunch of maritime city-states and they'll provide all the food you need. Raising your population and thus your science.

    low culture: buy cultural buildings

    low happiness: buy happiness buildings

    need to expand your borders: buy tiles

    It seems to me, based on an admittedly short few days of experience, that an entirely feasible(perhaps even optimal) strategy exists in which nearly ever tile is improved with a trading post(except map resources) and every effort is made to max gold generation through means such as social policies. It just seems like gold should be maxed at all costs to the exclusion of nearly every other strategic consideration.

    Now I could be wrong, and in fact I hope I am wrong. Can someone please explain to me how I am wrong? :undecide:
     
  2. dannythefool

    dannythefool King

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    This is true, but I don't see how it is "boiled down" seeing as the most viable strategy in Civ IV involves covering the entire map with cottages for the exact same reason.

    I do think it is worse in Civ V because tiles are less different from each other; most of the time, building a trading post means +2 gold (highly useful) -1 food (not so much). But it's not a systematic difference.
     
  3. Takeda

    Takeda Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Location:
    Little Canada
    The difference is the commerce sliders featured in Civ IV. That and the fact that gold couldn't be used to smooth over EVERY other failing in your empire the way it can in Civ V. Production was unambiguously important in Civ IV, whilst it can almost be ignored in Civ V(especially now that gold has been disentangled from research and culture).

    edit: oh, and you could never buy food like you can in CiV. You always needed farms. Of course, there is always the issue of whether or not the 'max:gold, min:everything else' strategy is the most efficient. Which will take some serious playing to determine... or some heavy duty number crunching.
     
  4. SevenSpirits

    SevenSpirits Immortal?

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    512
    Your logic isn't very good. An analogy:

    Iron is overpowered in real life. If you are getting rained on, you can make a shelter out of iron. If you need to fight against other humans, you can make a sword out of iron. If you need to eat, you can use an iron spoon. If you are too cold because you have no clothes, you can heat up a large piece of iron and then set it near you.

    The point here is that the question isn't whether you can solve all these problems with iron, it's whether it's efficient compared to other things. In reality clothes probably work better than solid metal space heaters. In Civ, mines for example are better at making buildings than trading posts.

    That doesn't mean some things aren't stupid, like city state bonuses. But you definitely have to compare, not just make absolute observations.
     
  5. warhead66

    warhead66 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Messages:
    127
    Yeah because nations in the real world have never had any use for money..

    in fact the reason why america can't win the war on terror is because they didn't settle that capital next to a river and a hill.. And the reason why the want to end the war is the waste of buildings they have in afghanistan.. hell they built a theatre, a library they even built a mall.. but people won't stop fighting..
     
  6. Takeda

    Takeda Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Location:
    Little Canada
    I know, and I don't think I did a very good job of trying to get my point across. My point is that I fear the min/max:everything/gold strategy may be the most efficient. At least based on my last playthrough as a gold whoring Arabia. Where I absolutely trounced the AIs(much more so than usual I mean...heh).
     
  7. Fabien

    Fabien Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Switzerland
    In my last game I tried to base my economy around gold (emperor level) and I didn't find it that viable. In order to be able to buy things regularly you need a surplus of atleast 100 Gold, which isn't that easy to achieve early and you need the correct policies as well as the right wonders, else the values are just too high anyway. Later on the few Units I bought rarely made a difference since I had a huge empire and some very good production cities. Happiness becomes a problem in large Empires and with the many buildings you need to raise the cap, it's hard to get that much money out of it.

    Also, Gold has no real bearing on science. I think people overstate the usefullness of Gold in general. Maybe it's great for small empires, I don't know, but when you have around 20 cities it's not vital to rushbuy. The Conversion between hammers and gold is not really that favourable in the early game and in the late game, they few things you can buy don't matter that much.
     
  8. Takeda

    Takeda Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Location:
    Little Canada
    Reflecting on it a bit more I think I'm overstating it. I really put a 'max gold at all costs strategy' into place at around mid-game in my Emperor level Arabia game(though I had somewhat favored gold from the beginning). Where I started to destroy farms to make room for more trading posts. By around 1700 I was accumulating an unbelievable amount of gold every turn. I was a smallish empire of about 5 cities and I raked in nearly 800 gold per turn at my height. I could build a building or a unit every single turn, which is something I've yet to achieve through production.

    At worst, I guess, this could just be a slight balance issue. By simply making rush-buys more expensive, they could make this strategy much less viable.
     
  9. Yoshimune

    Yoshimune Haruhiism

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2003
    Messages:
    317
    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    So is that why the automated workers build trading posts on every tile?
     
  10. SevenSpirits

    SevenSpirits Immortal?

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    512
    Hehe. ;)

    Given the AI, my suspicion is that if you get to the point where you're working your first trading post (and it's a good idea) you've already won.

    So are you saying you'd build TPs instead of river farms? I think the farms are better unless there are a ridiculous number of maritime city states available to you. As for non-river tiles, yeah, farming them is clearly bad. Mining is probably worse than TPing if only because of golden ages (1h vs 3g). That doesn't mean you aren't getting a lot of production though. You can be in a golden age a pretty high portion of the time, and that will come pretty close to doubling it!

    At that point I'm not sure it's fair to call it a gold strategy. It just so happens that there are only 3 improvements, and you're building the more efficient ones. But even if you built mines it actually wouldn't affect your production much.

    Definitely some uses of gold are overpowered right now.

    - Getting city state allies.
    - Upgrading units.
     
  11. Takeda

    Takeda Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Location:
    Little Canada
    It wasn't so much just a question of improvements, and yes I did keep some very efficient farms. It was more a question of doing absolutely everything in my power to the furtherance of the sole goal of accumulating the most gold-per-turn I possibly could.

    It was sort of something I did for a lark. I had previously played a game as the Babylonians with the sole goal of accumulating the most science-per-turn I possibly could(got it up to 600, though i could probably do better). It's just that, to my slight surprise, the all gold strategy worked incredibly well. At least as well, if not better, than any more conventional strategy I had previously used.

    Like I said though, it's at most a balance issue, and not something really game-breaking.
     
  12. Feyd Rautha

    Feyd Rautha Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I TP everything that isn't riverside or a resource. Riverside at least pays for itself and allows me to lose less money to maritime city-states.
     
  13. viper_1986_1986

    viper_1986_1986 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    This is one of the things I like aobut this game
    In civ4 You had "commerce" which was devicded to happy/sci/culture/EP.

    In this game you SWAP out items.

    You spend 4gpt on building maint for 5happy faces.
    You spend 3gpt to get 2culture per a turn.
    You spend 1 gpt for EACH road, to make 5 gpt to connecting cities
    In later game you spend 1gpt on a railroad but you get 1hammer on those titles (railroads)
    You spend 2gpt to get 10% extra hammers
    Need some extra food? Pay off a citystate for food.
    Need extra units? Pay off city state ;)

    So yeah, it is a pretty good system, you are just looking at it from ONE side though.
    And it is pretty real, gold is what makes the world go around, all your money in your country, is backed by a pile of GOLD in your governments tresurey ;)
     
  14. viper_1986_1986

    viper_1986_1986 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    OH SNAP!
    Oh yes you can!
    Sid sushi baby ;)
    And cereal mills ;)

    The other thing that is missing in civ5 is the ability to go from food to hammers, in civ4 and 3 you could whip, you can't do that here, only gold to hammers, no food to hammers.
     
  15. viper_1986_1986

    viper_1986_1986 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    USA is just a "puppet" in iraq now :D
     
  16. Feyd Rautha

    Feyd Rautha Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    583
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    My one gripe about maintenance is that to field an army capable of competing you have to wreck your economy. Something needs to be done about maintenance costs on that one issue and the game would be much better. I'm not saying I should be able to fill every tile with units, but an army of ten units plus workers isn't asking too much I would think.
     
  17. beholder2

    beholder2 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    Paris - France
    According to the manual, the amount of gold depends from the size of the 2 cities.
    According to somewhere on this forum, I read that the amount of gold was allways a little bit more than the cost of cumulated roads between the 2 cities.

    So...
     
  18. viper_1986_1986

    viper_1986_1986 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    114

    Nothing needs to be done about it.
    This is civ5, not civX.
    The way the game is made, it is to stop you from spamming cities all over, on a middle sized map, after 6 large cities, you will have issues. Unless you get lucky and can control one of every lux res :)
    The best thing i found to do is, each city has to have its own lux, for 3-6 cities, anymore and each city needs 3 lux!

    Also to pay for large armies there is a policy that lowers the coast.
    Also keep your armies as small as you need them. Really the computers are dumb, with 2 siege, 2ranged and 3 or so melee you can EASILY take out the computer very easily.
     
  19. viper_1986_1986

    viper_1986_1986 Warlord

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    Yeah i wasnt sure on the forumal, but i was just saying that as an i.e :D
    I did see something odd in the F10 overview with trade routes.
    When you have DOUBLE roads going from city A and B, sometimes the 2nd set of roads shows up as a DARKER gold color, i am not sure what that means.

    Ill have to check it out tomorrow and try and do some math on it.

    But as for my game today, I was DESTROYING any extra roads to save cash.
     
  20. AySteve

    AySteve Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    82
    I always seem to be struggling to break even on gold, so I rarely get the chance to rush buy units, but I suspect this could be very powerful. The unit maintanence is crazy high in this game so theres no point keeping many units around, unless you are conquering an AI at the time (and you really should be if you want to exploi...er...play the game well, but thats a rant for another post!).

    You could probably do well with very few units on the field and holding a large amount of gold in the bank (and earning loads more due to the lack of unit costs to pay). Then just rush buy a defensive force if you get invaded. Once the AI has got all his units slaughtered in your territory you can go on the counter offensive and make even more gold razing their cities :)
     

Share This Page