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Gold vs everything

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Takeda, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. warhead66

    warhead66 Warlord

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    haha! :D

    so Iraq in civ4:

    US: so we're done fixing this place, have it back we're leaving.
    Iraq: sorry.. we're not willing to trade this.
    US: Wait what? it's yours come on take it
    Iraq: nah we don't want it.. enjoy the maintenance
    US: Goddamnit.. oh well.. Montezuma enjoy!
     
  2. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Yeah, the importance of gold and the building maintenance combined really just work as more discrete slider (that you can't adjust back, encouraging more long-term planning). That's... pretty much fine with me.

    Well, apart from the build stupidity of puppet states, because it can mess up your economy a bit...

    Cheers, LT.
     
  3. zonk

    zonk Prince

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    I agree wholeheartedly.

    It's all about gold.

    I've seen others claim farms ARE valuable... I don't see it. Trading Posts everywhere except for resources (and I'm beginning to rethink some of those, too).

    I don't build, I buy - until I get currency, I just basically set all my cities to build cheap buildings (burial tomb as egypt - no upkeep = more gold).... then - once I hit currency, they all build wealth with an occasional wonder tossed in.

    Get you income into the stratosphere -- I've settled into a 200 to 400 range, depending on whether I feel the need to trade for luxuries and whether I'm in a golden age.

    My balance stays pretty much in the 2-5000 range - depending on whether I needed to run a round of city state influences or decided to buy a few buildings.

    I hate to say it because I know the complaints are omnipresent in other threads - but this is the problem with the "top down" approach they took in Civ5 rather than the "City management up" approach in previous iterations.... once you figure out how to rig the top lines, the game ceases to be all that challenging unless you institute "house rules" -- and I think it's pretty pathetic that, one week into gameplay, I'm already considering self-limiting to 5 city states or implementing purchase rules.

    Yes, I'm still at prince level - but it took me years in Civ4 to even stay competitive at the mid-levels... and that's WITH a WB that I never felt bad to use on occasion.
     
  4. daunt

    daunt Chieftain

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    Jul 11, 2006
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    Converting gold to everything else isn't always efficient.

    for example, If you want +2 food for every city, and you have 2 cities, you'll need more than 2 improved tiles in trading posts to gather the 250 gold, while you'll need 2 farms to do the same things. If you have 30 cities, you need less than 30 trading posts to do the same 30 farms would do.
     
  5. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    The Maritime city state benefit is definitely one that 'scales'..more cities=more benefits.
     
  6. fmiracle

    fmiracle Warlord

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    Not exactly. You buy items at rate about 5+ gold points per prod.
    Post give you +2 gold from tile. It's less then 4 gold with bank, market and stock exchange.
    Mine give +1 hammer
    Lumbermill give +1 hammer, and later +2 hammer.
    Factory + railroads double the amount.

    So, mines and lumbemills are preferable for building than gold.

    yea.

    Or you can bulid it.
    And after it build, it will take gold evey turn... And soon you will have not so much GPT.

    Costs go high very fast, but all in all - yes. You can buy tiles. Or maybe you MUST spend gold on this - culture grows is slow.
     
  7. Monsterzuma

    Monsterzuma the sly one

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    Gold can only be turned into production at terrible exchange rates, and can not be turned into science except through science agreements which are oppurtunity dependent. Only a very limited amount of it can be turned into food via maritime city states. Not overpowered by any description in my opinion. It is versatile, but lacks in "punch".
     
  8. MaXimillionZero

    MaXimillionZero Warlord

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    The route between your first two cities may well make only 2-3 gold while costing 5+. At least until those cities grow somewhat.
     
  9. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    To the OP: great point! FWIW, I’ve just finished my first game and clearly noticed that hammer availability (particularly early in the game) seems to have fallen relative to Civ 4 - at the same time that the hammer cost of buildings has risen. (And this is after making allowances for the move to a BFH in Civ 5 from Civ 4’s BFC.) As a result, I therefore found myself having to buy buildings to construct them – and have been wondering whether this is a deliberate gameplay choice Firaxis have made (to emphasise the value of gold) or whether hammer availability (eg. from mines) needs to be increased and / or hammer build costs need to be tweaked. (Please note BTW that I’m familiar with the concept of specialising cities and limiting builds in saying all this – it’s not like I was actually trying to build every building in every city. :))

    Assuming it’s a deliberate gameplay choice, how are civvers responding to the new balance? Are you buying the majority of your buildings? Are you ignoring buildings in favour of building or buying units? Are you emphasising production in your city screens? FWIW, I’ve actually been wondering if the last of these options is the way forward – to switch to emphasize production in the city screen after you've allowed the city to grow a few pop, and then build food generating buildings (and / or befriend maritime city states) to allow the city to grow again. To elaborate on the OP’s last comment therefore, any advice re: how civvers are adjusting to a lower (relative to Civ 4) hammer world in which you can also no longer convert surplus food to hammers via slavery would be greatly appreciated.

    :thanx:

    PS: For those unsure of my abbreviations: BFH = big fat hex (as has now been mentioned in a few threads). BFC = big fat cross. Both terms are used to describe the tiles worked by a city in Civ 5 and Civ 4 respectively.
     
  10. Feyd Rautha

    Feyd Rautha Prince

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    Trade routes grow with the city. If the city is a long way away then yes, there will be a problem with cost, but I've had late game cities bringing in 25 gold from the trade route.
     
  11. milk steak

    milk steak Warlord

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    I personally used a Rush Buy/Draft strategy for Civ IV. Considering that, plus whipping, hammers were easily converted from either gold or food/pop. Churning out units normally was a bit too slow for me; I could Rush Buy/Draft/Whip an entire army in 1 turn!
     
  12. thk123

    thk123 Chieftain

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    At first, I came to a similar conclusion. However, having thought about it for a bit longer, I think it may actually be quite balanced. Apart from the obvious little things like not as efficient (stuff costs more gold than production) there is one key downside to gold: visibility.

    I doubt the AI takes advantage of this, but both your gold per turn and total gold are completely visible to every player. There is no magic gold pot, if you've got loads of gold and a high gold per turn, you must have a minimal army/few roads/low happiness surplus etc. This could tempt players to come and attack you.

    Even though you can buy one unit, defending your cities is best done outside of your city (so the attacker isn't able to range your city to death) but your units will spawn inside the city which means a player can attack you before you have even got a chance to set up defences.

    It also rules out cultural victories (sure you can buy cultural buildings, but then you won't have a high income any more and you will be behind if anyone else is going for it). Ditto with research, you can't buy research directly.

    The only victory that can be bought is diplomacy. However, this requires you to save up large amounts of money so you can buy all the city states which, as everyone will know your saving up, makes you very vulnerable.

    It is certainly powerful, but I am not convinced it is overpowered, it just needs the AI to recognise your vulnerability.
     
  13. Countmonte8242

    Countmonte8242 Warlord

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    Research agreements to me are the most overpowering thing about gold atm, assuming you can find multiple partners to trade with often. The reward vs. investment is way out of whack and make harvesting gold on the whole more powerful than harvesting food for lightbulbs. Add in the fact that you can do so much more with gold to begin with, and it seems your best bet is to have a lot more trading posts than farms.

    Let's look at the mid game (rennaisance era), and compare the power of food-harvested lightbulbs to trading-post gold used towards a research agreement.

    If you irrigate a square, you're getting +2 food. That's 1 extra pop, which gives you 1 lightbulb. Add a library and you're getting 1.5 lightbulbs from that farm. Yeah, you can stack more building modifiers, but you can do the same for gold as well, and by the way all those gold buildings are free maintenance! So over 125 turns, that farm is going to give you roughly 188 lightbulbs sans modifiers.

    If you put a trading post on a square, you're getting +2 gold per turn. Without any modifiers, this is going to give you the gold necessary for a renaissance era research agreement in 125 turns. Only renaissance era techs are anywhere from 700 to 1500ish lightbulbs. We'll just say 1000 average to make it even. Do the math and you're getting ~8 lightbulbs average in that era from a trading post if the gold is put towards a research agreement.

    So for those keeping score, that's 8 lightbulbs / turn for the TP vs. 1.5 / turn for the farm.

    As you approach the modern era the disparity gets even more dramatic because the techs increase in lightbulb cost by a number of a times while the cost of a research agreement maxes out at 350. A 350 gold research agreement, which one unmodified trading post can churn out in 175 turns, can give you a 3700 light bulb tech. Thats 21 lightbulbs per turn for the trading post lol!

    Research agreements simply have to be nerfed, or I see little reason to focus on science in many cities, which is really a bummer to me. In previous civs, you always kind of maxed lightbulb production while doing what you had to to maintain the economy. Now its pretty much reversed, and I dislike that a great deal. Research rate what always the main backbone of the game to me. They should attempt to make the tradeoff between lightbulbs and gold roughly even, and its not even close right now.

    Don't get me wrong, you still need to have a couple cities with food / science going cause you want controllable research as well. But until there is a major change that balances gold and science I'm only going to use those couple cities for farms / science. Everything else is going to be pretty much towned out, with all gold / culture / happiness buildings and not even a library.
     
  14. Maxor127

    Maxor127 Warlord

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    The thing that makes gold overpowered is that you can buy buildings and units from the very start regardless of social policy. And they're relatively cheap compared to how long it takes to build them. And it's dumb that the cost doesn't take into account if you've already begun producing the building. If you're one turn away from a bank, it's going to cost the same regardless of if you just started.

    I'd rather see something like in Civ4 that involved slavery or using gold to FINISH production rather than buying buildings and having them magically get built.
     
  15. SevenSpirits

    SevenSpirits Immortal?

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    You're comparing one citizen working a tile to two citizens, only one of whom is working a tile. The other guy is apparently too lazy and only sits there consuming food.

    I'm not surprised you concluded that the single guy was being more efficient. ;)
     
  16. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    You do realize the opponent gets a tech too? Also, I've never seen a trade agreement for less than 200, most often 250.

    Tech agreements also don't work well with 'beelining' of techs, since you'll often get cheapo ones instead of the better ones you are going towards.

    Tech agreements can also fail if war breaks out.

    Also 2 food doesn't = just 1 beaker. It increases growth rate forever, and the person you grew will then be doing other things, for instance being a specialist in a library for 3 more science.

    Efficiency per citizen is only relevant when you have the same number of citizens.
     
  17. Yakk

    Yakk Cheftan

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    So a good scenario for the food:
    1 citizen scientist (4.5 science per turn, -1 happy, -1 gold for extra citizen)
    vs trading post (+2 gold per turn)

    With research agreements capping out, they get broken. Research agreements should cost at least as much gold as the technology might cost lightbulbs -- in fact, maybe twice to 5 times as much?

    Maybe they should be "X upfront, and Y per turn" to make them easier to do. The length of the agreement could also grow.

    So in a 1000 bulb era, it might be 1000 gold upfront, and 50 gold/turn for 40 turns to enter into a research agreement. (that is 3 gold:bulb)
     
  18. dorn

    dorn Chieftain

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    The only problem I have with gold is the costs of buying off city states doesn't increase. It should be much cheaper at the start of the game and like 3~4x more expensive by the time you'd start thinking about the UN.
     
  19. Warspite2

    Warspite2 Prince

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    You know how much gold you need to have on hand to do all of these things? I don't know what level you are on but so far its been pretty tough to have stacks of gold laying all around to just buy your way out of every problem your in.
     

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