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GOMAW 29 AW wheel replay

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by ThERat, Apr 10, 2006.

  1. ThERat

    ThERat Deity

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    didn't realize but I am up....tonight
     
  2. ThERat

    ThERat Deity

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    save

    Pre-Turn
    our eastern walls doesn't look that good, hope we can hold on there

    1. 1466AD
    the market in Guangzhou is a noce boost in income
    sink a galley
    bomb defenses in beshbalik to 0, we need more cats to get at the AI cities

    2. 1472AD
    a xbox defeat a pike and the defense in the east is broken, we need units up there
    send some units there
    lose 4 units but raze Beshbalik in the west for 200 gold

    3.1478AD
    the east doesn't look good with another unit defeat and more coming
    defeat 1 unit but lose a LB at 80%, this is getting tough there

    4. 1484AD
    the Incans are now sending a bg stream of units in
    try and get whatever I can grab in the eats, but that isn't much
    raze a newly found city in the west

    alla the galleys in the north a cleared

    5.1490
    a lot of units are breaching in and are in sight, how could we open that front????

    6. 1496AD
    well, the Incans watsed a lot of units at Vilcas, we only lose 1 LB
    paper is in
    defeat a sword next to Vilcas

    7. 1502AD
    due to luck Vilcas survives another turn
    defeat 2 swords out of the town, but it won't help that much

    8. 1508AD
    defeat another 5 units and Vilcas and the HA invade the country

    9. 1514AD
    Tinajin gets razed, nothing I could do

    10. 1520AD
    I am glad my turnset is over since this game is lost
    Monte has knights now and we have no means to close that hole in the defense

    there is now a huge stack next to Vilcas and it will fall next turn
     
  3. ThERat

    ThERat Deity

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    well, guess that wasn't the most brilliant idea here :(

    well, guess you were so right about this
    .
    .
    .
    game over
     
  4. Pvblivs

    Pvblivs Scriptor

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    A pity, folks! AW on Monarch seems to be hell a lot of difficult :) Hope you get into some other game were your moral can rise again.

    Anyway thanks for playing this interesting game! It was fun to lurk but the turning point to game over was way too fast for serious game...
     
  5. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    I think the issue here is that I tried to rush this, rather than wait for the correct setup. That would be my fault. I was rather surprised that Monte had knights as that meant that we were several techs down anyway. For effect, I might go back to the save at the start of my turnset and play 30, properly setting up the open door policy, and showing you guys the effectiveness of it.
    I have had amazing luck at it, but the proper unit types and quanitities are a must have. I thought I could get them over piecemeal and that didn't work so well. Like I said, I apologize. However with Monte having knights, our chances of winning are currently still in the slim to none catergory.
    I think by jumping up a level you really added a lot of difficulty. I would suggest a prince wheel, or a monarch hub.
     
  6. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    Making good on my promise, I went back and replayed some turns with the swinging door policy.
    There were 2 major things that I noticed that differed from how we did it.

    1) I popped Gems at Beijing on turn 1. Wow that is awesome stuff. :cool:

    2) I waited 5 turns to do the swinging door. I also noticed that the military advisor appears to be wrong when using Greebleys trick to see the size of a stack. I had to reload when a ... stack contained 8 pults instead of the listed 4. :eek: :eek:

    3) My kill ratio is approximately 8:1, and I am set up to do the swinging door again with double the troops defending.

    4) The swinging door really works well when the roads to the front side of the city are cut and slow movers have to stop.

    5) I popped a Great artist not a prophet. GA's not so good, but I picked up music.

    6) I realize that this is not in the spirit of SG's, but I really want to see if I/we can win from this start!! There is a ton of learning still going on everywhere.
     
  7. knupp715

    knupp715 King

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    I think our main problem was very different strategies in the beginning.

    So are we going to continue to play on or abandon the game? I have yet to check out the save so I don't know if it is completely hopeless or not.
     
  8. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    I am not sure what we want to do.

    After playing through some stuff and getting reaquainted with the game, I realize that my open door policy was ~8 turns premature, and from a linear play standpoint hosed the game. :blush:

    As stated earlier I have replayed from the start of my turns and progressed all the way to chemistry now. I snagged liberalism first and picked up nationhood, and make nice positive cash at 60% science and have an academy in Beijing. (Not stacking Great people in Berlin is ridiculus as it makes 3-4 times the commerce of everywhere else). Universities are built most places, and I have beaten off 2 civs big stacks, and most of a third with a fourth incoming in the next two turns.

    It takes a lot of units to beat off 17 cats supported by 10 WE's, 12 HA's and a dozen Praets. In fact, I tested and I can't beat that off to save my bacon. But I can beat off 12 X-bows, 20 HA's and 23 Cats from Bismark, and I did beat off similar nasty stacks from Monte and Huyana.

    This maybe counterintuitive, but I don't think we want to destroy the big stacks. I killed Huyana's and Monte's big stacks and their tech pace picked up nicely and I now have to deal with 2-4 knights every turn from those 2 clowns. The other civs are so far back I don't think it is a huge deal.

    Praets following a massive Cat bombard just eat everything alive. I hope to have 4-6 grens up before I have to fight the romans again.

    I opened the choke at Xian, and the Germans just overran 8 units fortified in a fort on a jungle. Fortunately it cost them a fair deal, but those units would have been better served kept in the city itself.

    I just want to walk through the next 10-15 turns to get rid of the big stacks, then let the team decide if they want to keep playing or whatever.

    I am spending most of my time in the back pages of the play book trying some relatively innovative stuff, so I don't really feel that I could hand the game off for a while until I understand fully what works and why.
     
  9. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    I tried out this game a bit and proved that it is dead. I am a purist and wouldn't want to replay it. Mistakes were made, but we hopefully learned from it.

    That said, the fact that 2 or 3 units placed to block the huge number of AI units makes these "artificial choke" games not for me. I don't mind the occasional continent/pangea game with a natural choke (though I think the AI should be smarter), but totally blocking off a route in seems too artificial to me when the map is specifically designed to have these choke points.
     
  10. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    Well, I have managed to waste all the big stacks and stabalize the game.

    I see that Greebley doesn't want to play on any more, and I really don't blame him. This game is turning out to be a chore to think through and manipulate.

    I have had to remove the side wall from my case and mount a huge fan there and I still can overheat my computer when the AI moves. :cry: :cry: This is something that really should be looked at as I really don't want to have to buy a liquid cooled computer. (Nor will I).

    A game update if anyone cares. Xian was razed, but the troops evacuated beforehand. A new Xian was rebuilt and has taken everything thrown at it. Monte has Rifles, I do not, but he only has a few, and I am 10 turns away from them myself. No one else has chemistry, or astro.
    I saw something evil in this game. There were enough galleys to overwhelm and sink full strength frigates!! Clearing the interior sea is quite a challenge even with drydocks pumping out a bunch of frigates.
    Revolted to Free Religion and Merchantilism. Cannons are really fun to whack large AI stacks with. Attacking with 3-5 cannons is usually 3-5 kills and massive wounding to everyone else who blindly charge into CG3 grenadiers.
     
  11. ThERat

    ThERat Deity

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    I pretty much agree with Greebley here...and I also think those exploits are weird and not necessarily the way I want to play AW games.
    The current status of Civ4 means to me that AW games are limited to low difficulty and fun. Maybe the expansion will partially address this, as the current setup is really not condusive for AW games.
    The only way to win on higher levels is constant warring, but not AW.

    Maybe we need someone to come up with a mod that get's us the C3C type of warfare back (catapults!)
     
  12. knupp715

    knupp715 King

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    AW isn't ruined for me for those reasons. It's ruined for me because I find it extremely frustrating when you lose a bunch of units on a pRNG streak. In normal games this can be annoying but won't affect the game much. In AW a streak of pRNG can completely lose the game for you. Every single unit matters in your survival.

    Since the new patch I've been losing way too many above 80% and 90% battles. In AW games I'd rather not face the frustration and anger of this bs, especially since the AI is winning all those battles against the odds and almost everytime they attack with a stack of cats the majority of them will live. So is it just me or does the AI have amazing RNG?
     
  13. ThERat

    ThERat Deity

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    The RnG is screwed, I agree. However I had enough battles on low odds that I also won, that I can't say that the AI has an advantage here. The issue is that the odds displayed are not reliable and that's extremely bad.
    C3C had a clearer system of A/D values and one could estimate the odds. now we got so many different promos, that no man can ever figure this out. Thus, we rely on the display that tells us some arbitrary figure that in case of first strike isn't even correct. In a normal game this might be ok, but in AW this is rubbish and can lead to total frustration.
    I had games I wanted to quit straight off since I lost too many 80-90% fights.

    The issue in AW games is that you need to keep a high kill ratio. How can you achieve that? Without the chance to ping units with artillery and NO armies available, it's nerfed to a point, where I rather go back to C3C and enjoy AW games (which is what I actually do).
     
  14. Pvblivs

    Pvblivs Scriptor

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    Well if you have a chance of winning at 80% you will loose every 5th fight. When you always have the better odds, you of course are angered when it doesn't work for you, but it's ok. But you have to admit that often enough you also win 60% battles which are odds no one likes to rely on.

    Did you actually have a chance to analyse the list of odds with their outcome?
     
  15. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Odds are a tricky business. Fighting only at 80% odds means a 4-1 kill ratio as Pvblivs mentions. I suspect we are used to Civ3 where Catapults makes the odd near 95% all the time.

    It would be nice if someone tested the Civ4 odds though. There was some analysis that Civ4 had odd cut offs do to the HP being discrete which I do not see reflected in the odds listings.

    So the net result is I am not at all sure the listings are accurate, but I know enough to not trust my own judgement about whether the odds are broken. Strings of bad RNG stand out as "impossible" = broken in the human mind.
     
  16. knupp715

    knupp715 King

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    While we are on the topic of screwed up RNG, I just played a ladder MP game. An explorer killed my two musketeers. The first battle was 70 something % and the second battle was 99.9%! :lol:
     
  17. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    Alrighty then

    A small update on my continued playing of this game.

    I have played this out because of 2 reasons:
    1) personal pride, I really hated to see me mess this game up for everyone else
    2) I have a small reputation as a warmonger at this site, and I can't dissapoint my fans. :p (I know it is lame, but what the hey)

    Continued from my last report. I think there were 6-7 swinging door tricks to get to this point. But it has all paid off. There are enough highly promoted machine guns to stop dang near anything now, and there are no more uber stacks to come crashing down.

    The popup just said that we are the most advanced, and that is good.

    I encourage people to just take a gander at this save, and possibly play on.
    It is not that it will be easy, but it should play like a true AW now!!

    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Jake.Civ4SavedGame
     
  18. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    Well my personal pride caused me to finish this game, and just in time too.

    I am moving, and procured a new job, and have very little civ time left. (I only finished this cause my wife banished me from the rest of the house whilst she painted it)

    My thoughts: The AI needs some help. I will probably not play too many more sucession games or AW games in c4.

    Game was a winner, through time victory as I got sloppy at the end and just tried to power through. Everyone was cracking. If anyone cares, I can give them the save before victory.
     

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