Good Unique Units Discussion

[D0NIMATRIX]

I think that having a good special unit at a good time is essential to winning ANY game. A good unit is a unit that improves most on what a unit is good at. For example, the aztec Jaguar Warrior is much less useful than the Enkidu Warrior, because the Jaguar Warrior is just a beefy scout, whereas the Enkidu Warrior is a half-priced spearman. Another good example is the knight replacements– the rider and the ansar warrior are two of the best, because the specialty of the knight is high attack on the move, so the 3 movement gets them farther, faster, while they deliver the same punch as a knight. The war elephant is ok, because it requires no resources and has an extra hp, but otherwise is about the same as a knight. The samurai's only good thing is the fact that no horses are required to build it, but the extra attack is pretty useless and the +10 shields are bad for it, as well as only having 2 mp. But any of these is better than ANY other UU, because they replace the unit that lasts the longest in the game. Better than cavalry, better than spearmen, archers, warriors, tanks, boats, and air units. But boats and planes are the worst UUs to have.

BTW, all this is based on Civ3 Complete information.

 

[ecuwins]

A UU is not necessary to win any game. As far as boat UU's go they can be nice. The Man o' War is awesome because of its enslavement ability and it can bombard = free artilery that requires no upkeep. On pangea this may not be so great but conts or archi is very useful.

If I had to pick my favorite UU's they would be: Ancient - Mounted Warrior, Immortal, Celtic Warrior. Middle Ages - Riders, Berzerks. Industrial & Modern ages - can't think of any, hmmmm.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

The man-o-war needs no support? I revise my statement. The man-o-war is great-if the brits aren't dead because of riders. But I just found out that samurai actually have only 4 atk 4 def 2 mov, so they're worse than I thought. But unique units are so useful if you get a good one. Most of my games as the chinese are already decided the minute I get riders, because they can hold an empire 1/3 bigger together just as well as an equal number of knights. But I still think that any victory is owed in part to the UU, but mostly to the player and the civ traits. But there are some UUs that are just amazingly good, like the rider. Some, however, are worthless. Take the Panzer, for example: while it's a powerful enough unit, it comes into play way too late to have any major impact on the game. Or take the War Chariot or the Three-Man-Chariot, both are used too early in the game for there to be any use in them, because all that happens that early is a few cities building settlers so that they can wage war later in the game, so there aren't even enough cities to make a real army.

 

[CommandoBob]

I think that having a good special unit at a good time is essential to winning ANY game.

I most respectfully disagree.

A good UU, winning it's first victory, triggering a Golden Age, can be a great boost to winning a game, but it is not essential.

In CBob01 AWM Training Day Game, a rather recent Succession Game, we played as Russia, whose UU, the Cossack, is a Super Cavalry. We did not build that unit until near the end of the game, after we already owned half the world. Good playing let us conquer that much before we learned Military Tradition. But by then the game's outcome was already decided. Cossacks just made it easier (and more fun!)

In CBob02 Jaguar Conquest we conquered the world using only the Aztec's UU.

And in CBob03 Germans in Tu-tus, a current Succession Game, we are aiming for a cultural victory and may not even build a single Panzer.

I just don't think that the UU is the make-or-break point of any game.

 

[Aabraxan]

The man-o-war needs no support?

Obviously, ecuwins is free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's what he meant. When he said:

The Man o' War is awesome because of its enslavement ability and it can bombard = free artilery that requires no upkeep.

I think he meant that the enslaved unit requires no support. When the Man-o-War enslaves another unit, the other unit becomes a Man-o-War, but it's a slave unit, so the enslaved one costs no support.

As always, if I'm wrong, someone correct me.

 

[Aabraxan]

For further reading on the topic of UUs, might I suggest Rating the Unique Units by Ision?

Also, this topic comes up with some regularity, so here are some of the old threads that may prove interesting:

Unique Units and Unit Costs
What's your favorite unique unit?
What is your most feared Unique Unit?
Best Unique Unit?

Some of these threads are a little on the side, so you may not want to post in the threads, but perhaps they'll provide some interesting reading.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

I most respectfully disagree.

A good UU, winning it's first victory, triggering a Golden Age, can be a great boost to winning a game, but it is not essential.

And in CBob03 Germans in Tu-tus, a current Succession Game, we are aiming for a cultural victory and may not even build a single Panzer.

I just don't think that the UU is the make-or-break point of any game.

Sorry, I must not have been clear enough. I meant a military victory. But yes, unique units aren't essential, like I said in the previous post, it's just that they make the game that much easier.

Obviously, ecuwins is free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's what he meant. When he said:

I think he meant that the enslaved unit requires no support. When the Man-o-War enslaves another unit, the other unit becomes a Man-o-War, but it's a slave unit, so the enslaved one costs no support.

As always, if I'm wrong, someone correct me.

Even if only the enslaved man-o-wars require no support, that's still really good.

 

[ecuwins]

The enslaved Man 'o Wars are the ones with free upkeep -- yes that is what I am saying. I have built large fleets that exponentially multiply off of 3 initial ships. Add to that a bombard capability and a +1 movement from the seafaring trait that the English possess and the Man 'o War is actually a nasty foe if used correctly. Coastal cities beware when I steal your ships and use them to bombard your cities before I land my stack of doom.

Edit: I totally agree that riders are awesome (see my initial post). The other UU I really like in the Middle Ages is the Berserker -- 6.2.1 replacement for longbowmen, downside = 70 sheilds vs 40 but it has naval invasion capability just like marines. This a very cool for a unit available at invention -- again, not so much on a pangea but is very nice on conts and archi.

The thing about UU's is that they are all good but not essential. Each one requires a unique strategy hence the label Unique Unit. A true civ master can exploit the benefits of any UU. Maybe one day people will call me a civ master but not yet, not by a long shot.

 

[Bucephalus]

But boats and planes are the worst UUs to have.

Have you never played as Byzantines?

IMO, the Dromon is one of the best U/U's; it's stats keep it competitive right up until Destroyers, and it's fatal bombard at sea has it ruling the seas for a long time. Add in the ability to bombard coastal improvements - a full era before anyone else can - and you have a unit that can indeed be a game breaker.

A word of caution: don't be overly influenced by your choice of U/U; it's a bit like Wonder Addiction, in that it acts as a crutch and - argueably - stifles improvement of your skills.

 

[Hasdrubal Barca]

Or take the War Chariot or the Three-Man-Chariot, both are used too early in the game for there to be any use in them, because all that happens that early is a few cities building settlers so that they can wage war later in the game, so there aren't even enough cities to make a real army.

Not quite, the war chariot advantage is that it comes early, you dont need to develop horseback riding and it´s cost is only 20 shields plus it gives you GA meaning you will be able to place on the field 100 WC with almost no sweat.

This is one of the most dangerous unit in ancient age.

The Three-Man-Chariot is also a good choice for a military until Knights, you pratically dont need to build anything else, they are fast units that can attack and defend effectively (Mech Inf of anc ages).

 

[Quintillus]

The Sipahi is a very powerful Industrial Age UU (Middle Ages too if you research it early enough). No other unit has as high of an attack until the Tank (or Marine if you reseach it first for some reason). I'd argue it is even more useful than the Knight replacements for that reason.

I'd also agree that a powerful UU is not essential for conquest. It can certainly help, but to really conquer you must do so outside the age of your unique unit as well.

One of my favorite times of UU conquest, though, was with Egyptian War Chariots. I conquered an entire two continents with them, the latter mostly in the Middle Ages - even into the early Cavalry Age - and had triple digits of them for a good time. Sure I lost a lot of them, but at 20 shields apiece you can afford to lose a bunch. And they have the advantage of speed - it's a whole lot better than trying to win with Archers in the late Middle Ages.

edit: crossposted with Hasdrubal Barca and we were both espousing War Chariots!

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Have you never played as Byzantines?

IMO, the Dromon is one of the best U/U's; it's stats keep it competitive right up until Destroyers, and it's fatal bombard at sea has it ruling the seas for a long time. Add in the ability to bombard coastal improvements - a full era before anyone else can - and you have a unit that can indeed be a game breaker.

A word of caution: don't be overly influenced by your choice of U/U; it's a bit like Wonder Addiction, in that it acts as a crutch and - argueably - stifles improvement of your skills.

In response to the first part: I have played as the Byzantines, and the Dromon is very good, I thought I mentioned that later in the thread...

In response to the second part: My favorite Civ is the Chinese, mostly for their great combo of powers (militaristic and industrious) and the rider is a great UU for that reason. You get veteran ones quickly through barracks and the industrial power, making it that much easier to field a powerful army.

 

[bustedsynapses]

The other nice thing about Dromons is that they are transports, too! They're faster, because you're Seafaring. They bombard very effectively, often doing 2 pips dmg. They bombard in stack defense. They're ultra-powerful on attack. And they transport?!? Just unfair!

 

[Globex]

For example, the aztec Jaguar Warrior is much less useful than the Enkidu Warrior, because the Jaguar Warrior is just a beefy scout, whereas the Enkidu Warrior is a half-priced spearman.

I disagree, the Jaguar warrior is one of my favorite Unique units. Jaguars can fight barbarians, they are cheap to build, they can be upgraded to swordsmen for early conquest and they can pop goody huts and explore. Also, I beefy scout is worth more than a half-priced spearman in my opinion. Spearmen are not needed to defend cities until the higher levels and even then, it would be more effective to defend your cities with offensive units.

Some, however, are worthless. Take the Panzer, for example: while it's a powerful enough unit, it comes into play way too late to have any major impact on the game.

The Panzer is definitely not a worthless unit. It can be devastating and powerful when used correctly. After the Industrial Ages, when I get railroads, artillery, bombers, and cavalry, I usually attack the enemy from within my empire. The strategy that I use is this:

1. Build specialist farms in ICS placement up to the enemy borders
2. Have your army of workers road and rail every tile leading to those border cities
3. Send your bombers/artillery to redline defenders in every city within three tiles of your borders.
4. Send in calvalry to kill those redlined defenders and raze the cities.
5. Have your massive reserve of settlers to pop more specialist ICS farms in the space previously occupied by the enemy cities
6. Rinse and repeat.

When you get artillery and cavalry, your attack range is any enemy city within two tiles of your borders. When you get bombers, your range is increased to any enemy city within three tiles of your borders. When the AI gets infantry, the effectiveness of this strategy is somewhat reduced because the cavalry will not be as effective against infantry. When you get tanks, this strategy becomes more effective but your range is reduced to any enemy city within two tiles of your borders because of the speed of tanks. The effectiveness of this strategy will not return to its fullest power until you get modern armor. However, with panzers, the effectiveness of this strategy gets restored to its original level way sooner. (In Vanilla, which I have. In other versions, I believe that bombers have lethal bombardment so it wouldn't really matter.) Even in other versions, the panzer's movement of 3 can be used to conquer faster.

I agree with your opinion about riders. I think that riders are one of the most powerful and useful UUs in the game.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Sorry people for any confusion I may have caused by saying the panzer is useless. I have a tendency to exaggerate opinions and use powerful language. I meant that the panzer is not nearly as good as it could be because of it's lateness in the game.

The Jaguar Warrior is too short-lived for me, and seeing as the Aztecs are not expansionist, you get bad results off Goody Huts anyway.

Many of the opinions in this thread differ because many people play on different-sized maps. For example, some people like War Chariots and 3-Man Chariots for storming people fast, but on the maps that I play they will be stopped dead, if they're not already obsolete when they get there .

 

[Marsden]

Many of the opinions in this thread differ because many people play on different-sized maps. For example, some people like War Chariots and 3-Man Chariots for storming people fast, but on the maps that I play they will be stopped dead, if they're not already obsolete when they get there .

That's a very good point, because the size and form of the map does make a huge difference. I play a lot of archepeligoes, and Dromons are very powerful on those maps, a 30 galley that has a catapult built in and 4 movement and lethal sea bombard. I've destroyed frigates and ironclads with them, the really aren't obselete until the middle industrial and on water maps almost every city is coastal and subject to bombardment. 10 Dromons pounding your capital every turn can ruin your day. But on a low water pangea they would be almost useless.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Bear in mind that low-water pangeas should actually have more coastline that high-water pangeas, so more coastal towns.

 

[Mursi lives]

The Panzer is definitely not a worthless unit. It can be devastating and powerful when used correctly. After the Industrial Ages, when I get railroads, artillery, bombers, and cavalry, I usually attack the enemy from within my empire. The strategy that I use is this:

1. Build specialist farms in ICS placement up to the enemy borders
2. Have your army of workers road and rail every tile leading to those border cities
3. Send your bombers/artillery to redline defenders in every city within three tiles of your borders.
4. Send in calvalry to kill those redlined defenders and raze the cities.
5. Have your massive reserve of settlers to pop more specialist ICS farms in the space previously occupied by the enemy cities
6. Rinse and repeat.

When you get artillery and cavalry, your attack range is any enemy city within two tiles of your borders. When you get bombers, your range is increased to any enemy city within three tiles of your borders. When the AI gets infantry, the effectiveness of this strategy is somewhat reduced because the cavalry will not be as effective against infantry. When you get tanks, this strategy becomes more effective but your range is reduced to any enemy city within two tiles of your borders because of the speed of tanks. The effectiveness of this strategy will not return to its fullest power until you get modern armor. However, with panzers, the effectiveness of this strategy gets restored to its original level way sooner. (In Vanilla, which I have. In other versions, I believe that bombers have lethal bombardment so it wouldn't really matter.) Even in other versions, the panzer's movement of 3 can be used to conquer faster.

Massive reserve of settlers, ICS farms, big military ... That looks like an already won game, with or without panzers. Panzers will just help you to finish it faster. Early UUs will more likely change the course of the game.

The Jaguar Warrior is too short-lived for me, and seeing as the Aztecs are not expansionist, you get bad results off Goody Huts anyway.

The jag is a very good UU, precisely because Aztecs are not expansionist.
They will scout your close neighbours and find the far ones to trade the techs you will extort from the formers.
And they dont necesarly die if they finish they finish their move near a barb caveman.
And after their 'short live' you can turn them into swords, or keep them in reserve to get the GA at the right time.

 

[Bobv13]

I like Cossacks
1) Cuz I like that age for war
2) Cuz of Blitz
3) They Elite quickly
4) Cathrine's cute

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

@Mursi Lives

Well, I guess you're right, but that's just not my style, but I notice that each UU requires a different strategy to be 100% effective.

@Bobv13

1)Cossacks are good against medieval defenders, but I prefer Sipahis to Cossacks against Rifles.
2)Amazingly good special power, blitz is awesome for taking out lame stuff.
3)Only if you kill lots of lame stuff fast, and the difference isn't THAT noticeable for me.
4)You're kidding right?.........................RIGHT?!?!?