Good wide civs?

[Alzadar]

The War Elephant is pretty fantastic, actually. They're mobile composites that come an era earlier. Just loo at any of the challenges involving India, you'll see most of the really good players defaulting towards early War Elephant rush for a fast domination victory.

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought of it that way. Guess I'll have to try me some more Gandhi.

And of course I'll make sure that my average population is above 6.

 

[black213]

And the Mughal Fort became much better in BNW. Not because of the tourism, but rather because raw culture is much more rare now in BNW, making the +2 culture very good.

 

[Alzadar]

And the Mughal Fort became much better in BNW. Not because of the tourism, but rather because raw culture is much more rare now in BNW, making the +2 culture very good.

It's a bit better maybe, but the problem is that it's on a building that you wouldn't usually build and that provides no other bonuses unless attacked. Compare it to the Wat which is at an equivalent tech level: you're actually going to build Wats in as many cities as you can, AND the CPT is even better on the Wat than the Fort. The Fort isn't even stronger than a Castle for some reason.

Despite being relatively stronger in BNW it still has to be in the bottom 1 or 2 of unique buildings (maybe the Longhouse is worse?).

 

[crusader01]

I play wide usually, and if u want some civ which can go wide, i can list some .

For wide by default: India.
-India is the only civ that can go truely Tall Infinite Cities, its mad lol. Let try a Huge map, 1-4 other civs, and build 50 cities with 20 pop, u will see. I tried it, in Diety level, and when i reach atomic era, i get extra 244 happiness per turn (never get it before haha). There is alot source of local happiness now in BNS, lets see normaly what they are
+1 from happiness pantheon like goddes of love.
+1 from Aristocracy (Trad), or from Meritocracy (Lib)
+1-4 from your religion (pagoda, temple, mosque, shrine) if you have religion and choose them.
+8 from all happiness building.
+4-8 from Ideology (its like mad).
other maybe not count, because all above is enough.
So, you have about 16-20 local happiness per city, but this 20pop city only consume about 13 happiness ==> each city will give u more happiness when u pass 7 pop per city. With 20 local happiness, Indian city allow you to have maximum 33 pop with no unhappiness.

For wide with low Pop: Russia.
If you reach Modern Era, when nearly all strategic resouce explored, your city usually have 1-3 strategic resource, which will produce 1-3 hammer, it will be good for basic game play .

For wide and strong overall: Inca.
Inca true overpower when they are played in Highland map, hills and mountains are every where, and terrace farm spam every where. The cities will get average extra 6-20 food, plus gold for free road and improvement ==> it break the normal conditions.
Incan UA double movement in hills for war and some how the Withdraw ability is dominate highland too.

 

[Alzadar]

Ok I have to retract what I said about War Elephants, they are pretty damn strong. Mughal Forts still suck though and Gandhi's UA is still annoying.

 

[paulcarri]

I play watery maps (i love archi or even small islands)

I always played england, and had the usual issues expanding, but recently i tried carthage- its a massively strong start with the instant trade routes...and the easiest expansion ive personally had.

I never see many discuss carthage, but the free harbor seems huge on water maps to me.

 

[black213]

It's a bit better maybe, but the problem is that it's on a building that you wouldn't usually build and that provides no other bonuses unless attacked. Compare it to the Wat which is at an equivalent tech level: you're actually going to build Wats in as many cities as you can, AND the CPT is even better on the Wat than the Fort. The Fort isn't even stronger than a Castle for some reason.

Despite being relatively stronger in BNW it still has to be in the bottom 1 or 2 of unique buildings (maybe the Longhouse is worse?).

It might not be one of the best UBs but I wouldn't call it one of the very worst... that award still goes to krepost.

 

[Alzadar]

It might not be one of the best UBs but I wouldn't call it one of the very worst... that award still goes to krepost.

It's between Mughal Fort, Longhouse and Krepost.

 

[TractorBoy]

On the assumption that UAs and UUs are still unaltered since Vanilla.

Persia - Satraps Court.
Egypt - Burial Tomb.

The extra happiness provided by the above is a god send when playing wide.

Like others have said, India are surprisingly good if handled the right way, it is no good puppeting a small City that cannot grow, better off either razing or annexing (dependant on your social policy state of affairs).

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Going wide with Persia wastes its UA though.

 

[Alzadar]

Going wide with Persia wastes its UA though.

Not necessarily, just pump Great Artists, grab the Taj Mahal (Chichen Itza is probably out of reach), contribute to the World Fair...

 

[goodolarchie]

Not necessarily, just pump Great Artists, grab the Taj Mahal (Chichen Itza is probably out of reach), contribute to the World Fair...

Not to mention Liberty tier 2, Aesthetics T2 has two golden ages. These both actually help offset the "wide" penalties. It's pretty rare that I get more than 1 or 2 natural golden ages on immortal/deity.

 

[Matthew.]

It's between Mughal Fort, Longhouse and Krepost.

The math works out in the Longhouse's favor as long as there are forest tiles near to work. The loss of 10% modifier is nothing compared to the base amount of hammers you are getting (which are still getting modified by the other % modifiers).

I can only imagine it doesn't get a lot of love because people are chopping forests for more farms, but in wider play where farms are not as important, you get some massive hammer-heavy cities.

One of my favorite UB's in the game.

 

[goodolarchie]

The math works out in the Longhouse's favor as long as there are forest tiles near to work. The loss of 10% modifier is nothing compared to the base amount of hammers you are getting (which are still getting modified by the other % modifiers).

I can only imagine it doesn't get a lot of love because people are chopping forests for more farms, but in wider play where farms are not as important, you get some massive hammer-heavy cities.

One of my favorite UB's in the game.

1 food, 4 hammer forests by scientific theory. I don't think it's bad at all, but I wish the hammer bonus came earlier. I think the real issue is when you have riverside forests, that's somewhat of a sacrifice compared to early 4-food farms (even if not going tall, you can run more production tiles).

 

[Alzadar]

The math works out in the Longhouse's favor as long as there are forest tiles near to work. The loss of 10% modifier is nothing compared to the base amount of hammers you are getting (which are still getting modified by the other % modifiers).

I can only imagine it doesn't get a lot of love because people are chopping forests for more farms, but in wider play where farms are not as important, you get some massive hammer-heavy cities.

One of my favorite UB's in the game.

I guess what I dislike is that there was no reason for them to remove the 10% modifier. It would be strong but not outrageous: consider Russia or the Huns; their bonuses are similar and unlocked right away, with no trade-offs or downsides.

Instead we get a building that is conditionally better than the Workshop by 2-5 hammers but sometimes worse than the workshop by the same amount. It's good early game in your capital (since your start bias will net lots of forest), but will fall off later when you hit higher numbers. It's best in small cities, but in a wide empire you won't get as many good forest locations. The counter-synergy is frustrating.

 

[DudewiththeFood]

I had an amazing wide game once as the Hittites on the WotAW scenario. I'd basically won the game with most of the wonders and four massive cities. I was leading pretty much everything and I got up to 2,000+ gold because I was building things so fast I didn't need to buy anything. So I bought four settlers in a turn settled out, build them up, waited for another 2,000 gold, repeat. I think I ended up with about 20 cities covering present day Turkey, Syria and the Caucasus. Happy days.

 

[Matthew.]

Yep, there are potential trade-offs unlike other tile improvements (technically a UB, but functions as a unique tile improvement). But to put it on the same level as the Krepost, that is just insulting

The synergy with their UA (map dependent) adds to it as well. Every forest tile inside your borders that acts as a road is 1 gold saved. Not fair to label every forest tile as +1 hammer and +1 gold, since there will be some not acting as roads, but I'd argue it will more often than not add a couple gold per city on average.

Quite a bit of hammers and a few gold--way above Krepost and Mughal.

 

[Alzadar]

Yep, there are potential trade-offs unlike other tile improvements (technically a UB, but functions as a unique tile improvement). But to put it on the same level as the Krepost, that is just insulting

The synergy with their UA (map dependent) adds to it as well. Every forest tile inside your borders that acts as a road is 1 gold saved. Not fair to label every forest tile as +1 hammer and +1 gold, since there will be some not acting as roads, but I'd argue it will more often than not add a couple gold per city on average.

Quite a bit of hammers and a few gold--way above Krepost and Mughal.

You can't count gold saved from their UA as part of the Longhouse... might as well say the Krepost gives free production.

I will concede though, the Longhouse is only the third worst UB and not in the bottom two.

 

[Crafty Bison]

Spoiler :

America - Now France has changed, these are some of the best REXers about. Then go to war after that.
Shoshone - Even better REXers.
Iroquois - Meh, could be ok with the right land, the UB is fairly early and gets decent production without requiring massive pop.
Aztecs - Not really; the UA and UB especially say tall.
Maya - Absolutely built for Wide, can probably still do ICS even in BNW. UB is a beast.
Inca - Hmm, more naturally tall, but have passable benefits for wide if the land is right. UA is very useful for gold, infrastructure and war, and the UI lets you work more hammer tiles for the pop you have.
Brazil - Haven't played them, but they seem more set up for tall.
Celts - Yes wide is good. There's synergy with the religious bias, and the later K-Lee hall is very strong when it comes.
English - Domination civ, it all depends on the land you get before your time in the sun. There are benefits for wide though, with fast movement for settlers, workers and army in water allowing for more spread out cities.
Sweden - Hmm, seem better tall.
Russia - Wide is fine, the UA is better this way, and the UB bonus can actually be useful going wide with BNW culture mechanics.
Germany - Domination civ, whatever is best for the land.
France - No longer so good going wide .
Spain - Wide should be good, liberty will help get those NW's.
Portugal - Haven't played yet.
Dutch - Still one of the best REXers, and a wide strategy will help you get more of the flood plains/marshes that may not be next to your capital. Good wide civ.
Venice - Lolol.
Rome - Wide is good, UA will work well, and the UU period is a naturally aggressive one for wide civs anyway.
Austria - never played them; don't like the look of the UA.
Poland - Sure, why not, they're super powerful however you cut it.
Huns - Why build cities?
Mongols - Why build cities?
Persia - A civ built for a puppet empire. Does this count as wide?
Byzantium - Depends on the religion makeup, but wide is generally good, as it is easier to found a religion, and quicker to spread.
Greece - No obvious bonuses to tall or wide. Whatever's better for the land when you've finished carving your empire early.
Ottomans - Domination civ; whatever's better for the land.
Assyria - Why build cities?
Arabia - Absolutely built for wide. Do it.
Babylon - Probably better tall, but strong either way.
Carthage - Absolutely made for wide. Get the wheel, MoG and a tonne of coastal cities.
Egypt - Passable wide; the UB is good and good synergy as religion is important for wide, but give up a bit on the UA.
Ethiopia - The stele is good, but I like to go to 4 cities quick as possible with tradition then stay there; The biggest benefit of the stele is to get your religion first, not to pump out the 8th faith bought GS.
Askia - Domination, but tall is a little better than wide, as the extra gold means buying the settlers is still a decent option for these guys.
Zulu - Why build cities?
India - wide AND tall can work, but it won't be as early as other civs, which will require war. Luckily the UU is very good, even if the upgrade path is more than lousy.
China - Domination civ, though early game the UB makes wide a good start.
Siam - No, tall is better.
Indonesia - Wide is good, but ICS isn't once you've maxed your UA. The Candi is fun but probs not worth the science hit for that alone.
Polynesia - Wide is good; fun UA, and late game moai spamming is very fun too .
Japan - Domination civ, whatever is better with the land.
Korea - Tall is more natural, but the wide specialist heavy strategy still works just fine for me.
Right, Who'd I miss?

 

[Matthew.]

You can't count gold saved from their UA as part of the Longhouse... might as well say the Krepost gives free production.

I will concede though, the Longhouse is only the third worst UB and not in the bottom two.

Ha.

Meant as far as deciding whether to chop a forest. A river tile may be better kept as a forest if you also consider it is giving 1 gold. 4 food vs. 1 food, 2 hammer, and 1 gold. Eventually another hammer thrown on, but not really worth mentioning since it comes so late in the game. Was mostly a reply to goodolarchie above when considering Civil Service river tiles.

You are free to dislike anything, of course. You can rank the Stele at the bottom for all I care Was only pointing out that the math does work out where you are getting much more than the 10% is giving. Threads about it occasionally pop up in the past and was just clarifying that under the right conditions, it is quite powerful.