Goody Hut Mechanism Reset Postpatch

[Lily_Lancer]

You keep insisting that we give you money, but you've never actually explained why you think that Builder is the best start under almost all circumstances. I'm highly skeptical.

This is a bet. If you start with scout and can play good games I'll give you money. By saying "we give you money" you're actually admitting that scouts are not a good choice at all, and have no chance of comparing against other options.

So this bet is just used to stop those meaningless debates. Since you have admitted that and understood why scouts are worse (otherwise you'll take that bet instead of saying "we give you money"), there's no need to repeat the reason again and again.

Moderator Action: This betting stuff will not be tolerated. Take a day off to reconsider. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[tedhebert]

Right, there're different map settings.

In fractal and islands it is much clearer, since builders can explore before Shipbuilding in island maps, we actually make it improve 2 tiles then act as a navy scout.

hmmm... still need to get sailing to do this... so you save the prod on the galley by using a builder as scout, but it will only move 2, so I still prefer the galley honestly... But I get where
you're going...

In the end, I don't like to always play the same way, with what I consider optimal start all the time... I like to mix it up once in a while ;-)

 

[Siptah]

Chances to do a bit better with a non-builder opening rise when playing on slower game speeds in my experience. Haven't played the new patch yet, so I can't say how much I like or dislike a scout start with the new better goody huts on marathon or epic.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

That would be a bet of $100 on the level of a civ player you are. Im sorry but Im still not interested. Perhaps someone else is, these terms actually sound quite generous.

There are many players that have reached my level or even higher in this forum, but it is quite strange for anyone who reached my level to continue considering building a scout in the opening as optimal.

 

[civtrader6]

There are many players that have reached my level or even higher in this forum, but it is quite strange for anyone who reached my level to continue considering building a scout in the opening as optimal.

I keep advocating builder/settler or scout/builder/settler route as both are superior to the slinger rush - which is the most common sub-optimal advice around. While learning the game perhaps going for slingers and safety seems better, but its not optimal, and should be 'abolished' once your game improves and you're ready to become a better player.

For ppl interested, there is some great advice scattered around the forum from good players (e.g. @Lily_Lancer or @whacker) in general. I've posted some related to quick science victories as well.
No advice is written in stone though, so its also important to adapt to the circumstances. For example the Norway GoTM, the best opening is still with a builder (despite the imminent attack from other civs/barbs). For me it was also a game where I decided not to make settler next but rather a slinger, then a settler (whacker went with 2 slingers then a settler, but he lost the warrior).

There are games however, where a scout can be squeezed before the builder, and this is mainly for starts on very rough terrain (e.g. jungle and lots of hills) where there builder will be hanging without good tiles to improve.

 

[civtrader6]

Great thread! I have been doing 3x Slinger and 1x Warrior before all else for a while to execute an early neighbor rush, no matter what civ I'm playing. But the points here about goody huts and envoy bonuses really make the case for the early scout. I'm still situational on Workers, since if I'm doing a Slinger rush my priority is Archery and thus there are few tiles I can improve. But I might revisit that too. Thanks for the insights

Yeah, not neglecting a scout is invaluable. Now, the reason why @Lily_Lancer and myself (and others) keep advocating to start with a builder/settler is because it allows you to set the stage and execute a superior archer rush.

 

[PYITE]

The answer to what is the most optimal opening build is clearly that it depends on the map/settings. It's possible for builder, scout, warrior or slinger to be optimal depending on the situation.

With the buff that goody huts received it's clear that scout has the greatest potential to be optimal (starting with scout and getting a free builder is an obvious example) but is also highest risk because the scout might not pay off with the desired envoys and goody hut bonuses.

Worker open it probably the most consistent open but lacks the upside of the scout open.

So if you want first place or a chance at the fastest possible finish then scout is probably the way the start. If you are okay with second place and are more concerned with always being in the top 5 then builder open is the way to go.

For proof please read these threads:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6otm-17-opening-actions.617632/

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6otm-17-after-actions.617634/

 

[civtrader6]

The answer to what is the most optimal opening build is clearly that it depends on the map/settings. It's possible for builder, scout, warrior or slinger to be optimal depending on the situation.

With the buff that goody huts received it's clear that scout has the greatest potential to be optimal (starting with scout and getting a free builder is an obvious example) but is also highest risk because the scout might not pay off with the desired envoys and goody hut bonuses.

Worker open it probably the most consistent open but lacks the upside of the scout open.

So if you want first place or a chance at the fastest possible finish then scout is probably the way the start. If you are okay with second place and are more concerned with always being in the top 5 then builder open is the way to go.

For proof please read these threads:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6otm-17-opening-actions.617632/

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6otm-17-after-actions.617634/

It is map dependent though. GoTM 17 is special because its a very isolated start where all neighbours and city states are very very far away. So much so, that even the best finishing times are only in the 180turns range.
If you look at some other Science Victory GoTM the builder opening fares better (all quick victories - Norway SV GoTM). In France SV GoTM, I was able to beat whackers victory by 10 turns (he started with a scout, I started with a builder), or Gilgamesh (T138 SV, also builder) etc. Or the latest Gorgo SV GoTM etc... Or look at other victory conditions, and you'll see a series of @Lily_Lancer finishes in 100 or so turns (cultural victories, domination etc across all difficulties) - again builder...

But then, in some cases, with the benefit of hindsight, the scout may be better than the builder. Without knowing whats out there for you, I'd say the builder is better. Personally, I never forget the scout (and always hope I'll get one from a goody hut early).

So without wanting to continue the debate whether builder is better than the scout (as both are rather strong) - I'd just want to highlight again that both are vastly superior to the slinger opening.
The problem is however that this is not immediately apparent - the builder gives you an advantage that accumulates and becomes visible when you compare your empire foundations at turn 50.

 

[PYITE]

It is map dependent though. GoTM 17 is special because its a very isolated start where all neighbours and city states are very very far away. So much so, that even the best finishing times are only in the 180turns range.
If you look at some other Science Victory GoTM the builder opening fares better (all quick victories - Norway SV GoTM). In France SV GoTM, I was able to beat whackers victory by 10 turns (he started with a scout, I started with a builder), or Gilgamesh (T138 SV, also builder) etc. Or the latest Gorgo SV GoTM etc... Or look at other victory conditions, and you'll see a series of @Lily_Lancer finishes in 100 or so turns (cultural victories, domination etc across all difficulties) - again builder...

But then, in some cases, with the benefit of hindsight, the scout may be better than the builder. Without knowing whats out there for you, I'd say the builder is better. Personally, I never forget the scout (and always hope I'll get one from a goody hut early).

So without wanting to continue the debate whether builder is better than the scout (as both are rather strong) - I'd just want to highlight again that both are vastly superior to the slinger opening.
The problem is however that this is not immediately apparent - the builder gives you an advantage that accumulates and becomes visible when you compare your empire foundations at turn 50.

The OP and the following posts by Lily Lancer state that it is ALWAYS better to start builder. GOTM 17 proves this is wrong. Builder is a strong start but lacks the potential of the scout.

There are lots of other examples in the GOTM threads. Whacker, who consistently has the quickest victories usually starts scout.

I started scout in this one vs Lily Lancers sub optimal builder start.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6otm21-after-action.621243/

 

[Formica]

Furthering the Scout discussion as I fire up a new game: do folks do auto exploration or direct their scouts by hand? Pros and cons?

 

[Archon_Wing]

Manual scouting is always better as nothing automated in this game is trustworthy. Although if I pick up another scout in a hut or need to explore later in the game, these go on autoexplore due to laziness.

 

[Forster]

I manually direct scouts, otherwise they get killed too easily.

 

[Leyrann]

I always forget auto-explore, auto-improve etc are even a thing... Heck, I don't even queue multiple turns of movement. You never know what weird things they're going to do if you don't tell them what they should do every turn. Not to mention that you might change your mind once you come across them a later turn.

 

[Smity2k1]

Can we do a test in firetuner about old patch vs. new and using scouts to pop goody huts vs. regular units?

Seems like something @Victoria will do a deep dive on eventually

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Manual scouting is always better as nothing automated in this game is trustworthy. Although if I pick up another scout in a hut or need to explore later in the game, these go on autoexplore due to laziness.

I auto-explore when I get down to the caravels uncovering all the small little unexplored places in the ocean

 

[Victoria]

Can we do a test in firetuner about old patch vs. new and using scouts to pop goody huts vs. regular units?

Not going to go back but happy to do a goodie hut test

 

[Atlas627]

Well I think we are going to have to get into semantics: what is optimal play? Is it, on *average*, doing the best you can? Or is it the best possible play you can ever achieve?

The first will obviously be at least first build slinger. This prevents you from getting destroyed by barbs and can lead into a rush or into expansion. On average, this will give you the most bang for your buck. Even when you do get a case where it would've been better to build something else, you won't know that until after you've had to make this choice. The slinger is the least risk for the most reward, with the info you start the game with. (I can only think of a few times where I'd choose warrior instead on turn 1, and those depend on which civ I am + terrain, and I'm not even sure its a good play)

But if its trying to get the single best game of all time, then scout or builder both come into question (I hesitate to say Monument is an option, but it might be if you meet an Industrial CS turn 2 or something). Scout, in the case where you meet the best CS and get the best goody huts, will result in the best possible game. Builder, in the case where you quickly grow so that you use all the tiles, the tiles you improve are the ones you'd use, those tiles are excellent yields, you get good eurekas, and you don't get attacked by barbs/civs, is going to lead to a great start.

So are we talking about playing the best on average, or getting the best result possible?

 

[Kwami]

So, are the reward chances something that we can check in the game files? Does anyone have the pre-patch version to compare with?

Or are we just going with small sample sizes and anecdotes?

 

[Victoria]

Or are we just going with small sample sizes and anecdotes?

I have the old xml and I believe these odd are in there so AI will dig them out and compare them. I have to jetwash some stables first.

 

[Victoria]

OK - So here are the xml settings and as suspected one thing has changed....I thought I was getting more builders, now I know why.

as I understand it, when a goodie hut is found each type of goody hut has the same chance of being selected. (i.e Civic example following) Then it assess if you have a city... if you do not then it will not be able to give you a relic and so chooses from a 1 civic boost or a two but as its only turn 23 it will only give you 1 civic.