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Goths (BtS 3.19; V1.0)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - New Civilizations' started by kochman, Mar 8, 2010.

  1. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    V1.1 - changed Lancer
    V1.2 - changed some city names
    V1.3 - added French translation from Aegnor

    LH - Alaric I (AGG/CHR); Theodoric the Great (AGG;ORG)
    UB - Tumulus (replaces monument; -25 war weariness; +25% military production)
    UU - Gothic Lancer (replaces horse archer; 6:strength:; +25% vs melee; +25% attack vs swordsman)

    Download link:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14452

    Credits: MANY... the following (and I probably will forget someone, I apologize in advance) either helped me learn coding, etc or were victims of flagrant art theft by me...
    Aegnor; Manifold; Teg_Navanis; Ajidica; Phungus420; The_J; Chamaedrys; Aranor; Ekmek; Flying Pig; The Capo; woodelf; CRoland; Wyz_sub10; strategyonly; zerver; IgorS; esnaz; Amra; cfkane; avain; cool3a2; Flintlock1415; TheLastOne36; RulerOfDaPeople; Iloveplayciv; Bakuel; Freya; nutnut; cybrxkhan...

    I have not play tested this yet. Please give me any results you have re: issues/balance/art problems.

    INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS
    1) Download and unzip mod
    2) Create the following directory and place mod in this directory:
    Civilization 4/Beyond the Sword/Mods/Extra Civs*/Assets/Modules
    3) Copy and paste a .ini file from any other mod, and place it in:
    Civilization 4/Beyond the Sword/Mods/Extra Civs*/
    4) Rename .ini file Extra Civs.ini*
    5) Open the .ini file and replace the XML code with the following code:

    Code:
    [CONFIG]
    
    ; Modular XML Loading
    ModularLoading = 1
    
    ; Skip Main menu
    SkipMainMenu = 0
    
    ; Custom Art from user folder is not loaded
    NoCustomArt = 0
    
    ; Custom XML and Python from user folder are not loaded
    NoCustomAssets = 1
    
    ; No Custom Scenario option in main menu
    NoCustomScenario = 0
    
    ; No team play allowed
    NoTeams = 0
    
    ; Read Game options from XML, not .ini
    ForceGameOptions = 0
    
    ; Always start in the standard era
    ForceStandardEra = 0
    
    ; Scenario file (Single player)
    ForceScenario = 0
    
    ; This mod is only for single player games
    SinglePlayerOnly = 0
    
    ; Allow public maps to be used with this mod
    AllowPublicMaps = 1
    
    ; Mod Image file
    ImageFile = 0
    
    ; Name of Mod
    Name = Extra Civs
    
    ; Description of Mod
    Description = Generic Mod
    6) Start Civilization 4 Beyond the Sword, at main menu select Advanced>Load a Mod
    7) Extra Civs* should be an option, select this mod, then select "Go" and the mod should load


    * You can actually name this mod whatever you want, but whatever it is, make sure the .ini file has the same name.

    Note: You can put more than one mod into the folder, and you only need to do steps 1 & 2 for each additional mod after the first one.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Nice one, also good job with your recent civs!!
    One quick note only: the UB is too powerful IMO.
    The -25% war weariness is good, considering the Monument obsoletes early and there isn't much war weariness that early in the game. You can even increase it slightly if you want.
    But the +25% military unit production is overpowered for me. Even the Shale Plant gives only 10% production bonus. It's not just for unit production and never obsoletes, but it's soo much later in the game.
    So I would decrease this to 10%, that sounds balanced for me.
     
  3. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    I thought it would also obsolete the military production, but now that you mention it, that is in a different part of the XML. I need to look into the coding to see if I can get it to obsolete, if not, I will scale it back a bit.
     
  4. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    Thinking about this more... I basically need to play test it.
    I mean, if the military production bonus goes obsolete, like the war weariness modifier, then it stays. I am just not sure if it does or not.

    This was a very militaristic group here, especially under Alaric I... I basically used a highly modified Shaka AI personality for Alaric, and a highly modified Stalin for Theodoric the Great, to reflect this.
     
  5. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    I think it obsoletes too.
    So when I wrote my comment, I was considering that, and still thought it's too powerful this way.
    Some UBs have 25% war weariness, some have 10% production, if this has both and obsoletes early that sounds fair to me
     
  6. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    Yeah, I figured it is obsoleting before it get's too powerful... early rush? :lol:

    I may tone it down... I will play a game where the AI has control of them and see how it goes... I kind of figure they will surge early, but be stagnant when it comes to economy...

    I forgot to mention the +1:happy: for CHR leaders was switched to AGG leaders for this UB... a weaker trait.
     
  7. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    Added Ajidica to the credits, the Lancer is his! Sorry for the omission Ajidica.
     
  8. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    From my play test... these guys are no joke!
     
  9. The Capo

    The Capo godless Heathen

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    Well of course they are, their UU is definitely overpowered. No doubt about it, +1 Strength AND a 30% bonus v. melee? You should go with one or the other.
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Agreed
     
  11. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    I don't think that is why they are a powerhouse... the leaders both are AGG, and one is also CHR, and they have a build ratio like Monte & Shaka.
    Praets are +2:strength: for example...
    If I were to go with one or the other it would be a +2:strength:, but...
     
  12. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Praets are also too powerful IMO
    Anyway, they cost more and don't have the usual city attack bonus as the normal swordsmans to balance this out even in vanilla bts
     
  13. The Capo

    The Capo godless Heathen

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    Plus your unit has two moves and can withdraw as well as flank seige weapons. Not to mention you get a military production bonus from your UB, plus you said yourself that one of your leaders is Agg while the other is both Agg and Cha. This is a lethal combination, so I am sure they are tough to deal with. UU is most certainly overpowered though, which it should be as a UU, but not that overpowered.

    It has a bonus against the only unit that can counter it (spearman).
     
  14. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Huh, I didn't even notice the UB's bonuses yet
    +25% production and -25% war weariness. Uhhhh, at least 3 times as powerful as the vanilla UBs :crazyeye:
    Production bonuses can get out of your hand very easily. Even half of what you gave is a huge bonus...
    The Japanese Shale Plant (Coal Plant) adds +10% production, and it's sooo late in the game.
    You can argue with the monuments relatively early obsolation, but production boost is much more important in the beginning of the game
    So I would stick to this 10% production bonus, it's fairly well balanced (without the war weariness reduction of course, obviously you can't have both if you don't want an ovepowered UB). Maybe raise it to 15%, but that's the max it could get IMO
    Or you can always go in the other direction: stick to the 25% war weariness reduction, and drop the production bonus
     
  15. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    Have you playtested the civ? Or are you just basing this completely off what you see on the screen?
    Sorry it disappoints, but it seems you are only considering the strengths of the UU and UB, here are some weaknesses...

    UU
    *no terrain defense bonuses
    *obsoletes pretty early
    *how much conquest can the leaders afford/maintain in early stages...
    *no city raider
    *Compare this to nubian rider: -1:strength:, +50% vs melee (including spears, its only counter... 7 * 30% = 9.1; 5 * 50% = 7.5, perhaps I could make it +10% vs melee which would be 7.7 vs melee), immune to first strike, not historical that great of a unit compared to the gothic cavalry which defeated the mighty Roman Legions

    UB
    *effects obsolete relatively early
    *forces build of generally unnecessary building type at early stages of game :)hammers: could be spent elsewhere for better infrastructure early on)
    *bonuses apply to a period when they are not actually providing much bonus overall due to smaller city sizes (compared to the 10% mod the shale plant gives)
    *production bonus ONLY applies to military units, unlike shale plant

    These guys took down the Roman Empire at their peak... they were a warlike culture how basically conquered large swathes of land at relative will.
    They are definitely not built to last.

    Give me specifics on how you would change it. UU of only +1:strength: or only 30% bonus vs melee is out, BUT, door is still open.
     
  16. mechaerik

    mechaerik Tuturuu!

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    Thats not the way attack bonuses are calculated. 7+30 comes out to 7:strength: against approximately 7:strength:. 5+50 comes out to 5:strength: against 6:strength: (both on flat ground, no defensive bonuses).

    Also, Numidian Cav is also weaker against Archers and other mounted, but this unit is stronger against archers and other mounted, because of its augmented base strength.

    And although Agg does nothing for these guys, Cha does. It reduces promotion costs, and that can be used to get Combat or Flanking promotions. Combat would make them even more powerful, as it adds to the base strength, making it 7.7 with just the first promo. Getting both flanking promos (barracks+stable is enough to accomplish this) gives a high withdrawal and immunity to first strikes.


    As for how to change it, i'm not sure. Not very studied in Gothic cavalry tactics.
     
  17. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    I don't understand the first part of what you wrote... the math on the strength. If I can understand this better, I can make some appropriate changes, but what you wrote above doesn't really make sense to me.

    As for promotions, promotions are promotions... if you choose a CHR leader, that is a bonus you get, just like if you choose a FIN leader you get more commerce.

    Look at Praets... 8 strength with CR line... they get freaking powerful.
     
  18. mechaerik

    mechaerik Tuturuu!

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    All combat bonuses (except the Combat promotions) are applied to the defender. This means that when this guy attacks a spear, the Spear is 4:strength: with a bonus of 70%, defending against a 7:strength: Gothic Lancer.

    Sine 70% of 4 is ~3, that comes out to a 7:strength: unit against a 7:strength: unit.

    Numidian Cavalry are 5:strength: against 4:strength: with a 50% bonus against the numid cav.

    Which comes to 5:strength: against a 6:strength: spear.

    Hope thats clearer. :)
     
  19. mechaerik

    mechaerik Tuturuu!

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    All combat bonuses (except the Combat promotions) are applied to the defender. This means that when this guy attacks a spear, the Spear is 4:strength: with a bonus of 70%, defending against a 7:strength: Gothic Lancer.

    Sine 70% of 4 is ~3, that comes out to a 7:strength: unit against a 7:strength: unit.

    Numidian Cavalry are 5:strength: against 4:strength: with a 50% bonus against the numid cav.

    Which comes to 5:strength: against a 6:strength: spear.

    Hope thats clearer. :)
     
  20. The Capo

    The Capo godless Heathen

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    Yeah, you are basically nerfing the counter unit, which means this unit is pracitcally unstoppable. And consider a Spearman can't get a bonus v. mounted until after a few promotions that makes it even more difficult. I know, you can also say the same about the mounted unit, but keep in mind it can withdraw. Sure, I haven't tested it, but I am making a mod so I am very familiar with how this stuff works, and that unit is definitely overpowered.
     

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