GOTM - 01: A New Beginning. Pre-Game Discussion

ainwood

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GOTM - 01: Pre Game Discussion



Welcome to the first pre-game discussion thread for the Civ4 GOTM.

This starting save was generated by Aeson. :)

Game settings:
Civilization: Rome (Leader: Caesar; Traits: Expansionist & organised)
Rivals: 6 (Random)
Difficulty: Noble ("even" level - the AI gets no bonuses, but neither do you!)
Map: Continents
Mapsize: Standard
Climate: Temperate
Waterlevel: Medium
Era: Ancient
Speed: Normal

Victory Conditions: all enabled
Other options: all disabled (Raging barbs would be fun... but not the first game. ;) )


The starting screenshot is here:



This month, as many people have not played much Civ4 (or if you don't have a copy of the game yet, have never played it, I have tried to provide a bit of starting info to help you with your thoughts on possible strategies.
 
OK - lets look at some of the issues.

Leader Traits

First up, Julius Caeser is Organised and Expansive.


Organised:
  1. -50% Civic Upkeep.
  2. Double production speed of lighthouse, courthouse.

Maybe one of the weaker traits, especially in the early game. The early civics are fairly cheap, so the reduced upkeep doesn't provide much benefit. In the later game, cash-flow doesn't tend to be as big of an issue as in the early game, so again the higher civics can be supported with not too many problems.

Construction of lighthouses can be useful though - they provided one extra food / water tile, and helps grow a coastal city large enough that it can provide a good commercial boost to your civ. They require research of sailing to build them.

Courthouses are useful in reducing maintenance costs. To build them, you have to research Code Of Laws - this can be a good tech to get after early, especially if you have missed-out on one of the early religions (first to Code Of Laws founds Confucianism). In addition, to build the Forbidden Palace, you need to build 5 courthouses (and have at least 8 cities).


Expansive:
  1. +2 health / city.
  2. Double production speed of granary, harbour.

On noble difficulty level, you start with "+3" health, so with the expansive bonus, you are at +5 and can allow cities to grow to around size 5 before you have health problems (one food / turn is lost for every excess citizen above the health number). Settling on a source of fresh water (like that shown in the starting screen shot) will give you an extra +2 as well.

With the double production speed of a granary (which adds +1 health from Corn, rice and wheat; plus stores food like it does in Civ3), you should be able to grow cities reasonably large fairly quickly before you get health problems. Granaries can be built once you've research pottery.

The double speed of harbours allows +1 health from clams, crabs or fish. It also provides for an extra 50% trade route yeild in the city, which can help your commerce as well.

Unique Unit

You unique unit is the Praetorian; a replacement for the swordsman. It costs the same as an ordinary swordsman (40 hammers), and also requires iron (becoming available with Iron Working). The difference between the swordsman and the praetorian is that the praetorian has a strength of 8, compared to 6 for the standard swordsman.

The downside of the praetorian is that it does not have the 10% city attack bonus that the swordsman has. Still, with even a city raider 1 promotion, this unit can be very powerful in the early ages whilst cities are still being defended primarily by archers.
 
The Starting Screenshot

If you look really closely at the starting save (or if you want to see the full version, download it from here), you will see the following:

  1. The starting location is on a hill, and on a river.
  2. There are gems, silks and corn visible.
  3. For you Civ3 players - you have no worker!

A river starting location is common in Civ4. As mentioned previously, it provides health for the city founded on it, but it also acts as a link to the trade network - any other cities built on the river (or connected to the river by roads) will be linked.

The Romans start with fishing and mining. With no coast in sight, the fishing may not be particularly useful, but mining will allow you to mine the gems, and therefore get benefit from them.

Undeveloped, gemstones provide +1 commerce on the tile, but the real benefit from them is when you mine them. A mine (and a connection to the trade route) provides one extra happiness bonus in every city. In addition, a plot that is worked by a city generates an extra 5 commerce and one hammer when mined! In the early game, this can be a significant boost to income.

The corn provides +1 food on the tile. Once you have researched agriculture (a first-level technology), you can build a farm that will add a further 2 food. Connecting the corn to the trade network will also provide one extra health to all connected cities (+2 in cities with a granary).

The other resource that you can see is silk. Silk doesn't become really useful until you research the calender. Before you have researched the calender, they provide +1 commerce from the plot. With the advent of the calender, you can build a plantation on the silks. This provides 3 more commerce, plus a happy face in every connected city.

One other feature that was brought to my attention was the number of forests in the starting aread. In Civ4, forests can either be chopped for 30 hammers (once you've discovered bronze working), or they can be left in-place. You can't plant forests (although they do grow randomly periodically!) but left intact, each forest provides 0.40 health to the nearest city, whether the forest is actually being worked or not. If they are worked, they provide +1 hammers over the base terrain. The decision on whether to chop them or not must be made carefully, but they can provide a nice bonus to rush an early unit or building.

The Civ3 players amongst you who have yet to play Civ4 may notice that there is no worker. In Civ4, workers have to be built, and in addition, technologies to do the basics (build farms, mine resources or even build roads) must be researched.

Ok - that's a bit of an introduction to the information presented in the startng screenshot. Now its over to you to discuss the implications and possible strategies.

We'll be starting this game when the first patch comes out - hopefully this won't be too long (but no firm ETA AFAIK).
 
Awesome :D

With praetorians on noble, winning the game by military conquest shouldn't be too difficult although I'm curious if the evil-geniousness of the civ3 gotms has carried over to leave us without iron :p

Looks like settling E or NE might be a good idea.

Anyway, great to see that you're so quick to begin the civ4 gotms, let's just hope that Firaxis releasees the patch soon so we can get going.
 
looks good :thumbsup:

btw, it looks like we start on a hill/grassland, which is actually a nice tile because you get some food from it as well as shields.
Corn is 1T N of the settler, gems are 2T E, but, due to the newness of the game, I can't find the silks? Is it 2T NW of the warrior?
I'm thinking perhaps settling 1T E would be a good choice, but I'll probably move the Warrior SW to the hill 1st.
 
ditto :lol: maybe you could post a zoomed out screenie with that because now I'm really confused as to the locations of the resourses (SW looks like a grass/forest to me, not a resource :crazyeye: )
 
Nice work Ainwood! I might just get sucked back into submitting GOTM again! :)

In Civ4, forests can either be chopped for 30 hammers (once you've discovered bronze working), or they can be left in-place. You can't plant forests (although they do grow randomly periodically!) but left intact, each forest provides 0.40 health to the nearest city, whether the forest is actually being worked or not.

I'm no expert at CivIV since I've only played it for less then a week, but here is what I've learned about forests.

  • You get 0.4 health for forests in the normal two tile radius (21 tiles) your city can work. So the break even points are 5 forests (+2) and 3 forests (+1).
  • You can only chop forests within your borders. However, these often extend outside of your city radius, so any forest not in your city radius is a prime candidate to chop.
  • 30 hammers is a bigger deal then 30 shields in CivIII because you don't lose the excess. Go over and you get it on your next build item.
  • In some cases, chopping produces more then 30 hammers, I think 51. Not sure if this is terrain based or distance from city. Might be adjacent to city.
  • Chopping is quick, like 3 worker turns. Very, very efficient way to get early production.
  • You need bronze working to get the ability to chop, but it is very worth it in my opinion.
  • Some improvements on top of a forest (like building a mine) include the forest chop in the total time to complete, but I think you get the bonus hammers in the middle of the total time, as if you had chosen to just cut down the forest.
  • Other terrain provides a negative health modifier! Floodplains are -0.4 health and jungle is -0.3 health! Same rules as forests, the 21 tile radius around the city.

StanNP :cool:
 
I hope i'll get the damn thing to work after the first patch. I did manage to play up to about 1AD in my first game, but it crashes to often and i won't be able to have 1 hour sessions :( The starting moves will propably be moving warrior to the hill and if he doesn't see anything good settle in place. From my very limited experience i would say that going for an early religion is not a good idea unless you start with mysticism (which seems to be civ4 version of alphabet :D) because you may fail to get it and even if you do get it you'll have to delay growth too much. I would go for agriculture and start with building a worker. I know that this means that i won't be able to grow for 15 turns, but getting +3 food from corn earlier will quickly pay off imo. I'll emphasize food and grow the capital as much as happiness allows, then i'll start building settlers and workers. New cities will propably start with a granary hurried by a forest chop. The later game strategies will depend on the scoring system, which is not yet clear ;)
 
Forests are extremely useful, not only in chopping them initially, but later in the game you can build logging camps, for a great boost in production.

Settling on floodplains gives you a -3 health. They give you extra food, though.

(Question about chopping forest outside of your city radius, I'm assuming it gives the hammer bonus, right? I've never tried, in fear of lossing the bonus and three turns of a worker's time)

This is a pretty good position to start in. I'd like to join in, though I'm pretty horrible at Civ games (I've been playing Warlord mostly).

Final question, why are we waiting for the first patch? I can only assume it's with the hope that the patch'll fix many of the terrian/crashing bugs that people have had.
 
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. I've started only a couple of cIV games...both on Noble, and I seem to be doing okay in both, but I'm really flying blind.

I don't have a feel for what to do with the terrain yet; the game clues you in with cyan circles over its recommended tiles to work, but I sometimes can't figure out why, especially when it doesn't seem to care whether I build a cottage or farm. My first thought is to move 1E to get more hills to work.

(EDIT: See below for link to this info) Is there a terrain table in the manual? I looked through the tables in the appendix but saw no terrain matrices. The civilopedia has some terrain, modifier and bonus stuff, but I saw nothing about hills in there or what affect the rivers have on terrain. I think the river just gives +1 commerce to each adjoining tile, right? (Just speaking of terrain effects here, not trade routes etc..) But someone somewhere on this forum seemed real excited about grasslands by rivers.

D'oh, I just realized I haven't tried mining flatlands yet...can you do that? In Civ3 I tried to balance tiles in general: mine the grass, irrigate the plains. Should cIV go the same way? Cottages seem to be popular, but I haven't found a need for money yet.

By the way, I've read that forests only grow on unimproved tiles, so in my games so far and in this game I'll try to leave some spots by forests untouched if I want a forest there in the future or if I just don't need the tile soon.

Calendar is needed to make use of the silk, but calendar obsoletes a couple of things...Stonehenge in particular, and whatever it is that gives you free obelisks (still Stonehenge?). I'm avoiding Calendar in a current game so as not to lose my free obelisks, but I'm losing out on a sugar bonus. Here we have the same issue with silk. Should we get calendar relatively quickly or put it off?

That river is longer than the ones I've had in my games. It could be a nice quick traderoute connector for new cities.

EDIT: Looks like someone made a terrain production matrix
 
thedaian said:
(Question about chopping forest outside of your city radius, I'm assuming it gives the hammer bonus, right? I've never tried, in fear of lossing the bonus and three turns of a worker's time)
The fail-safe method is to move a worker onto the forest. Mouse-over the forest chop icon, and you'll get a tool-tip message saying '30 shields in xxxx' - so you see where the shields will go. I think they go to the nearest city.


Final question, why are we waiting for the first patch? I can only assume it's with the hope that the patch'll fix many of the terrian/crashing bugs that people have had.
Partly due to crashes; partly due to the peace-treaty exploit (you can get a civ to agree to insane deals like giving you all their cities, due to a bug).
 
Okay, after reading around and thinking some more:

I'm thinking settle 1S. This will give early access to 2 plains forests (1f 2p) and 4 grass forests (2f 1p), most of which are on a river for +1 commerce. This will give the governor early choices for food and hammer production. (I'm liking the way the governor handles the city so far...still don't trust it for worker actions, though.)

I won't touch the hills; I hope for them to grow forests. With agriculture the corn will be a food boost. Later when population is up and the hills are either forested (hopefully) or mined (if I have to or if they have iron/copper, or if I want to prospect for minerals) I can farm the forested grass by the river for a food boost to support working the hills.

1S should still be on the river for the trade bonus. With this many forests, the corn and this plan I think I would consider settling off the river if the land were beneficial because I think we'll have plenty of health for a while. However, since my preferred location is on the river anyway, I'll take the health bonus. (There's +2 health for settling on fresh water, right?)

I don't have the tech tree in front of me, but this looks like a very research-strong start. I'm not sure if I'd want to specialize some sort of tech rush or be happy that I can grab most/all the low techs and stay in the tech race. You'd think this could lead to a wonder play, but ... (next paragraph)

I think I'll let the city grow a while before making a worker or settler...in fact I may make the settler before a worker. The land is nice and I want high pop to take advantage of it. The flipside of this is I doubt I'll want to take time to build a wonder until after the first settler is produced.

EDIT: Also, since I'm counting on the forests here I won't want to chop in the city radius. I'll also avoid chopping by a tile I'm hoping the forest spreads to. I should have enough production to build something culture-producing, so by the time I'm ready for a settler my border should be big enough for me to find a choppable tile near the outskirts of the empire.
 
first some comments on stuff already posted.
btw, it looks like we start on a hill/grassland, which is actually a nice tile because you get some food from it as well as shields.
have i been playing a different game? city tile still produces same thing as in civ3, 2 food, 1 hammer and (i dont remember if it makes money).
In some cases, chopping produces more then 30 hammers, I think 51.
i'm fairly certain that the 51 is on games of different speed. fast games i think are 51 (though i dont remember the number, using yours), normal are 30 and epic are 20 something (21 iirc)
Some improvements on top of a forest (like building a mine) include the forest chop in the total time to complete, but I think you get the bonus hammers in the middle of the total time, as if you had chosen to just cut down the forest.
i've had them come in at completion of the mine i was building (on a forested hill), so i think you're wrong there about the timing. and i have yet to find a worker action that builds on a tile (thereby removing the forest) that does NOT give a city the bonus hammers.
Settling on floodplains gives you a -3 health. They give you extra food, though.
you sure that its the place you settle? i thought it was number of floodplains in city radius as StanNP posted 3 posts above yours.
I won't touch the hills; I hope for them to grow forests.
having not yet had a forest grow (i improve all tiles i can) why would you want this? i mine hills as soon as i can. what effect does a forested hill give that i dont know about?

now for my own observations.
i see 4 silks on the map. (where warrior is, SE and E of warrior, and N of settler)
for the first turn, i'll move the warrior NE so that i can see if there's anything good on the tile SE of that. If it is a good one, then i'll move settler 1 east and settle, this adds the 3 unseen tiles to the east to the city (hopefully something good in there, i think one of em is a hill) even though it does make me lose the silks that the warrior is standing on, but one of 4 aint a big loss for the gamble on 3 additional tiles.
if the tile the warrior reveals (N+NW of settler) is a bad one (like plains or grassland with no bonuses) then i'll move the settler one South and settle. This leaves the city with a all the river squares it has now (ie settling without moving) and leaves it all 4 Silks and the gems and corn ofcourse. and i'm fairly certain this spot (1T S of settler) is still on the river, so still getting the health boost. but the important part to me is that it will add 4 unseen tiles to the city radius. with the rate of bonuses i've seen in my games so far, i think there's a good cahnce atleast one of the 4 has a bonus.

because forested tiles do not get the river +1coin bonus, and all 4 silks are on the river, and all 4 are in forests, i think one of the first tasks i'll have a worker do is chop down those forests and improve the silk tiles with whatever fits them best (farms or mines, if mines are possible, dont remember).
with the river bonus coin and the silk bonus coin, those tiles will be making 2 coins each. 2 of them are grassland under the forest, so that will be 3 food and 2 gold with farms. and 2 are on plains, so thats 2 food 1 hammer and 2 gold with farms. and with the huge gold bonus from the mined gems my research will go like as if i had a library up.

i like letting my cities grow to size 2 before i start the first worker, and i can usualy get a warrior out of the city by then to explore with more then just the one warrior i start with.
 
I'm in agreement Puppeteer. I believe I would also settle 1S. Though my first move would be warrior to the plains/hills 1SW. If I found a domestic animal resource in the tile 1SE from warriors hill, then I woud consider settling 1SW.
 
RoddyVR said:
i'm fairly certain that the 51 is on games of different speed. fast games i think are 51 (though i dont remember the number, using yours), normal are 30 and epic are 20 something (21 iirc)
I just checked the event log for my current epic game on a huge map, and verified that the forests yielded 45 hammers. I remember there were some higher yields, but for some reason only four of my logging endeavors registered in the log. I believe I logged at least a dozen forests.

Perhaps map size as well as game speed have a relation to the value of harvasted forests.
 
RoddyVR said:
having not yet had a forest grow (i improve all tiles i can) why would you want this? i mine hills as soon as i can. what effect does a forested hill give that i dont know about?

I thought if the forest grew on the hills it would save me from mining them since a forested hill is the same production as a mined hill. (When you have 1-3 population or so you're usually not working a hill as they're a bit worthless unimproved and unbalanced after mining, so I thought I was giving them time to sprout.) But in a test game I've been playing none of the hills sprouted trees (although 3-4 flat grass tiles did over a looooong period of time), so I had to mine them, anyway.

Also I was thinking the forests would let me concentrate on building other things besides workers. But in my test game I ran out of things to build at about pop 3 or 4 and started the worker to connect a bronze resource that I found.

For my test game I restarted with Rome and these settings a few times until I had some flat grass forests, flat plain forests, a river and grass & plain hills. I went for pottery first since Rome gets to build granaries at half price. After that I went for Bronze Working and then Iron Working, so I didn't have many build options and had about 3 warriors and a granary before making a worker earlier than I had planned.

I'm babbling now, but the point is the work-the-forests gambit seemed to slow me down, and I had to improve several tiles before they had a chance to get a forest.

My 2nd and 3rd cities in the test game were by food bonuses (or flood plains) and mixed hills away from forests so I improved their tiles methodically, and those cities grew quickly and were very productive.

Given my test game I think I'll still settle 1S but plan on farming the grass on the river and mining the hills. If I need the food or the chop boost I'll chop forest on the river and replace it with a farm (simultaneously w/build farm command).

I'm still not sure what to do with the plains tiles...I guess I'll leave the forests on them or put cottages on them.
 
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