GOTM 104 Spoiler

[Ali Ardavan]

Date Notes

-3980 Hut yields 50g.
-3940 Beijing founded. Citizen on Musk Ox.
-3840 Warrior produced. Production moves to settler.
-3780 Hut yields Pottery.
-3720 Beijing is size 2. -> Alphabet.
-3700 Archer from hut.
-3600 100g from hut.
-3560 Horseback riding from hut.
-3520 Archer from hut.
-3480 Empty hut.
-3440 Shanghai founded.
-3420 Barbarian horseman from hut which dies in attack on my archer the next turn.
-3320 Warrior Code from hut.
-3300 Horseman from hut.
-3260 Masonry from hut.
-3240 Barbarian horseman from hut which dies in attack on my archer the next turn.
-3200 Barbarian horseman from hut which my horseman kills.
-3160 Horseman from hut.
-3140 Horseman from hut. Chariot from hut. None settler from hut. Canton founded.
-3100 Barbarian horseman from hut which my horseman kills. Nanking founded with None settler.
-3080 Alphabet -> Code of Laws. Writing from hut. Archer from hut.
-3040 Lost a horseman due to lack of support. Archer from hut.
-3020 Archer from hut.

Status at -3000
Population: 0.08M; Cities: 4; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Despotism
Gold: 10; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 7; Production: 8MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: 1 Settler, 1 Warrior, 5 Archers, 2 Horsemen, 1 Chariot
Russian: No contact
Babylonian: No contact
Viking: No contact
Greek: No contact
Sioux: No contact

-2960 Lost warrior due to lack of support. Mapmaking from hut.
-2940 Math and Bronze Working from huts.
-2920 Tsingtao founded.
-2880 None settler from hut. Ceremonial Burial and Code of Laws from hut.
-2860 -> Monarchy.
-2820 Monarchy and Seafaring from huts.
-2800 -> Currency. 50g and Archer from huts.
-2780 Xinjian and Chengdu founded.
-2760 Currency from hut. Revolution started.
-2740 Monarchy established. Trade, Construction, and Engineering from huts.
-2720 -> Mysticism. 100g from hut.
-2700 Horseman from hut. 100g from hut.
-2680 Feudalism and Mysticism from huts.
-2660 -> Literacy.
-2620 Iron Working from hut.
-2600 First Caravan built. 8 barbarian Horsemen from hut. One barbarian horseman from hut which my horseman kills.
-2580 4 barbarian horsemen die in attack on my Archer. They other 4 spread out. None Legion from hut.
-2560 100g from hut.
-2540 Barbarian horseman killed in attack on my settler.
-2520 3 Barbarian horsemen killed in attack on my units. Babylonians start Pyramids. Astronomy, Navigation, Bridge Building, and Chivalry from huts.
-2500 Literacy from hut.
-2480 Last wandering barbarian horseman killed in attack on my settler. -> Republic. Philosophy from hut. I am first with Philosophy. Hangchow and Tientsin, first cities with access to a river, founded.
-2460 Republic -> Banking . (Philosophy's reward.) 8 Barbarian horsemen from hut. None settler from hut.
-2440 Barbarians kill my Archer. Legion from hut.
-2420 Legion from hut. Invention from hut. Tatung founded.
-2400 Macao founded. 25g from hut.
-2360 2x50g from hut.
-2340 50g+25g from huts. 8 barbarians from hut which kill my only chariot the next turn. Shantung founded.
-2300 50g+25g+25g from huts.
-2260 Legion, 2x50g from huts.
-2240 Settler on river survives 2 barbarian horsemen. 8 barbarians from hut which kill my archer the next turn.
-2220 Chinan founded. 25g from hut. 2 sets of barbarians from huts which kill my Legion and horseman the next turn.
-2200 Barbarians from hut which kill my horseman the next turn.
-2180 Marco is built. My rivals have from 3-5 cities and no new techs. My power is Supreme. I made peace and exchanged maps with everyone. I gave all my techs to Sioux.
-2160 Kaifeng and Ningpo founded.
-2140 Paoting founded. Science city of Yangchow with access to 8 rivers and 2 furs founded.
-2100 25g from hut.
-2080 25g from hut. 8 barbarian horsemen from hut which kill my None legion.
-2060 Naples founded. 2x50g from huts.

Status at -2000
Population: 0.87M; Cities: 19; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 5; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 29; Production: 41MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco
Units: 8 Settlers (2 None), 3 Archers, 2 Legions, 1 Horsemen, 4 Caravans, 1 Explorer
Russian: 4 cities, 7 techs;
Babylonian: 3 cities, 18 techs;
Viking: 5 cities, 7 tehcs;
Greek: 4 cities, 7 techs;
Sioux: 3 cities, 29 techs;

 

[Hexer]

Strategy here is plain and simple. Inspired by my first two early conquest tries I decided to head for 3-4 of these AI-isles as soon as possible and get them populated (auto-settler is allowed, right?). Exploit the purple civ and have a good time
At this point I'm not quite sure to build my SSC one nice river-square or on an AI-isle. In the long run (WLTK growing, specialists, traveldistance) I probably will choose thr grassland.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I have been playing a peaceful game so far. I intend to use the rivals as trading partners. Given their geography, I doubt if any of them ever leaves their homeland even if this was not at the warlord level. I may turn on them in late game for score, but mid game I think they are more useful as trading partners.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

-1980 None settler from hut. 50g from hut. Issus founded.
-1940 Banking -> Democracy. Give away techs to encourage rivals to work on techs I do not have. Cunaxa founded.
-1900 Cremona founded. 100g from hut.
-1880 Cannae founded. 50g, Legion from huts.
-1860 25g from hut.
-1840 Capua founded. Barbarians from hut kill my Legion. 25g from hut.
-1800 50g and None settler from hut.
-1760 3x50g from huts. Barbarian horsemen from hut kill my Legion.
-1720 My settler survives two barbarian horsemen. 50g from hut.
-1680 Turin founded. 50g, 25g from hut.
-1660 Paid 87g to Barbarians to prevent them from taking over an undefended city. Genoa founded.
-1640 3x50g from hut.
-1620 Democracy -> University. Democracy established. T2L4S4. Crete and Verona founded. Legion from hut.
-1600 Hanging Gardens built in science city. 10 cities go into celebration. Barbarian horsemen from hut kill my explorer.
-1580 50g from hut.
-1560 Salamis founded.
-1520 Lisbon and Hamburg founded. 100g from hut.
-1480 Knight from hut. T3L4S3
-1460 Legion disbanded to keep government from falling into riots (poor planing). Barbarian horsemen kill my Knight.
-1440 University -> Chemistry. Prague founded. 50g from hut. Settler disbanded due to poor planing.
-1400 Knight from hut.
-1380 Salzburg founded. Barbarian horsemen from hut kill my explorer. 50g from hut.
-1360 Knight from hut. Barbarians from hut disappear. None settler from hut.
-1340 Colossus built. 50g from hut. Gave a whole bunch of techs to Russians for Gunpowder. T2L4S4
-1320 50g from hut.
-1300 Musketeer and Knight from hut.
-1280 Bergen founded. 100g+50g from hut.
-1260 100g from hut.
-1240 Chemistry -> Explosives. 50g from hut. Barbarian horseman bought for 41g. Venice and Milan founded.
-1220 2xDragoon from hut.
-1200 2x50g from hut.
-1180 100g+2x50g from hut. None Dragoon from hut. 8 Barbarian horsemen from hut attack my archer and it miraculously survives!
-1140 Ghent, the first port city, founded. 2x50g from hut. Barbarians from hut pull away from my diplomat.
-1120 First structure, a Library in science city, built. Explosives -> Metallurgy. All my techs -> Sioux -> Leadership. 8 barbarian horsemen from hut, two of which are killed by my units. The remaining ones get killed in attack on those two units.
-1100 Leo built. 50g from hut.
-1080 100g+50g+50g from hut.
-1060 Pisa founded. Domestic Gems for 21 establishes the first trade route.
-1040 Paid 50 to turn away a barbarian horseman from Venice. Metallurgy -> Physics. Dublin and Toronto founded. Dragoon and Musketeer from hut. 50g from hut.
-1020 Melbourne founded. 100g from hut. Domestic Hides from science city for 80.
-1000 50g from hut. None musketeer from hut. Domestic Coal to science city for 65. Domestic Silver for 35.

Status at -1000
Population: 4.75M; Cities: 41; Trade routes: 8D0F; Government: Democracy
Gold: 169; Cost per turn: 4; Total advances: 38; Production: 87MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Leo
Units: 17 Engineers (5 None), 3 Musketeers (1 None), 6 Dragoons (1 None), 1 Caravel, 3 Diplomats, 33 Caravans, 1 Explorer
Russian: 5 cities, 30 techs;
Babylonian: 4 cities, 31 techs;
Viking: 5 cities, 33 tehcs;
Greek: 4 cities, 36 techs;
Sioux: 4 cities, 38 techs;

 

[CharlieChuck]

I've played to 1AD so far, didn't have time to keep a log. After first seeing the map I wasn't sure if it'd be ice everywhere or not, so I thought of rapid expansion until I found a decent site or area then maybe switch the capital.

I built the first city on a 3 square ox site, had no arrows at all until I built a settler and founded a second site. The best plan I could think of, after exploring a bit, was to build lots of cities using the furs, and try an SSC on a 4 fur site on which I could later transform the ice to more arrows. After getting Marco's I realised the distance to the AI was huge, so trade bonuses would be good for those cities able to grow to a reasonable size. It took a long time to start getting deliveries to the AI because of the distance.

Getting democracy helped as most of the cities were far from the capital and suffering from corruption. I agree with Ali's post on the other thread, this took a whole different way of thinking than normal.

I suppose the ultimate goal is a 1ad launch. I didn't manage it, I think it may be possible though.

 

[Hexer]

I had so much fun opening hut after hut, at 3400 BC I still didn't build a city yet to avoid Barbs. Although it is my third try I'm still amazed by the power of hut-only. Here are my 3500 and 3400 stats for comparison.

................3500........3400
Archers........8..............8
Legions........5.............15
Horsemen....19.............21
Chariots......12.............13
Crusaders....0...............6

Adv...........21............35!!

Gold..........700...........1475

 

[Hexer]

Here are the 3000BC stats:

6 Cities (80.000)
71 Units
2766 Gold
43 Adv.


The vikings are destroyed and I'm going to build my first grassland city in the next turn. The third hut on the isle gave me a nomad.
Here's a funny thing: When I found Invention in a hut (first City already built) I chose Democracy for next advance and actually discovered it in the next turn. Does anyone know why this would happen?

Future plans:
- Meet purple civ in the next 2-3 turns.
- Cultivate two or three AI-Isles and start we-love-the-king as soon as possible. AI cities are still around size 1-2 and probably won't grow that much in the next 50 turns so I will ignore trading until my own cities have a nice arrow output.
- Transform 70+ offensiv units into galleons/caravans/whatsoever.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

In retrospect, I regret having built my city as early as I did. If I knew the map (that I am alone on a vast continent) I would have held off for some time.

Hexer, your -3000 stats are impressive. Quite likely, the green star is yours.

 

[Hexer]

Since I did know the map for this game (tried it a third or fourth time) I'm reporting right now, I won't submit the game for score. Personally I find it more interesting to find out what might be possible on a certain map playing a "perfect game" depending on luck of course. Therefore I play a savegame over and over again to beat my last score or try new strategies.

First try on this map was crap. I didn't really thought about the map and ended up with 3-4 cities don't growing or producing and quit it.
Second try (I knew the map and guessing where the AI would be wasn't really a problem) was an early conquest. I overread the information that it wasn't allowed but I did a good job by finishing it at 3040BC. A third try with a little different strategie (less exploring, heading straight for the south to reach the coast as soon as possible) did it in 3160BC.

Then I started the actual try right now, based on my second game. At 3000BC I explored the whole continent and found every single hut. You need a little bit luck with invention (not too early, please) but all in all the "how-to" was a no-brainer yet. Just moving tons of units through black areas. After 3000BC I started with some serious colonisation. Stats at 2500 are looking like this:

29 Cities (540.000; 13 cities on the main continent, therefore 16 on grassland)
26 Units + 8 caravans
1341 Gold (melting...)
44 Adv. (but already at 6 turns/adv with only size 1+2 cities; Democracy 100% science; 100% Tax would be 154g/turn already, nice)

At the beginning of expansion I decided to built the pyramids. My plan is to rushbuild settlers as soon as cities reach size 2 so I need some good growing. Also it will help me to save a few turns until my cities reach size 3. I can't really evaluate the real effect of this decision since it is the first time I ever build the pyramids (as far as I can remember - really!) but things looking good in terms of population.
The first WLTK phase is suppose to happen around 2000 BC. I will have two or three full populated AI isles then and cities should be size 3.

 

[Hexer]

Played another 25 turns and at 2000BC things are going really good

- 44 cities (5.680.000)
- 50 advances (3 t/adv on 100% science)
- 84 gold (495 g/t on 100% tax)
- 3 units + 29 ingenieurs + 11 caras
- 176 MT production

So i build a ton of ingenieurs (perhaps to many). Building Pyramids was a brilliant choice, small size cities never stopped growing. Three Ai-isles are almost finished with irrigation and roads, the fourth is a bit slumping. SSC will be Babylon. Expect the Colossus in the next 2 turns. Since its Warlord level I won't go for shakespears theater (but I'm not so sure about it...). Already built Michelangelo some time ago.
I'm a bit worried about my money. Aslong as trading isn't going I see no other possibility and have to cut science here and then...

Future plans (appr. 1500BC): start caravan trading, make babylon a huge city, some librarys here and there, give sioux new techs.

Theoretical there is no problem with a 1AD landing but I'm pretty sure I will mess it up somwhere since my "lategame" is very very bad.

edit: wait, I thought at 1000BC timeline went with 10 years/turn but it's still 20y/t so there are only 100 turns left. Hm...

 

[Peaster]

Personally I find it more interesting to find out what might be possible on a certain map playing a "perfect game" depending on luck of course. Therefore I play a savegame over and over again to beat my last score or try new strategies.

In my opinion, this is a great way to learn the game. Strategy is more important than all the little tricks you read about in the forums.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I feel playing on a known map is a different challenge than playing on an unknown one. Both are interesting but in different ways. I like to get a good mix of both. On unknown maps, the game is one shot. You can never compare your first attempt with subsequent ones. Like Hexer, I too enjoy going back to a known map with a different strategy and then compare my results. As Peaster mentioned it is a great way to learn the game.

 

[Hexer]

Playing known and unknown maps are poles apart! Usually I'm really bad playing an unknown map but on the other hand everything has to be perfect. That's probably the reason why I love playing a map over and over again. I make no secret of the fact that I really dislike the "one shot" concept. And since there are only a handful of people left playing gotm there isn't really a competition anymore. I'm fine with comparing general ideas, different choices concerning timing and so on. And as far as I can see this is the only place left where people come and look from time to time to discuss a little bit. It's a shame...Civ3+4

 

[Peaster]

I agree. There is almost no general discussion of Civ 2 at Apolyton anymore, and the discussions at CFC these days are mostly Q+A with new players. Though I think some experienced players had a Diety +3 succession game going recently [?] and I am totally ignoring the scenario people at both Poly and CFC. I've heard rumors of an active multi-player or PBEM group in Germany ... ? Probably you [Hexer] know more about that.

Playing known and unknown maps are poles apart!

Why do you (and Ali) say that ? Are you talking mainly about special maps like this GOTM ?

For "normal" maps, I can see some obvious differences; eg knowing locations of huts, specials, other civs, and sea routes. But we all know ways to get this kind of info without a complete map ["map analysis" of hut/special patterns, MPE for AI locations, and black-clicking for sea routes and size-of-island info]. So, I think playing on an unknown map is not TOO different, and it still makes sense to compare results from such a game with the results of replay(s). I'd be more concerned about differences caused by luck, in hut popping or battles, especially before 2000BC or so.

I still remember my leap from noob to decent player in 2004. I had played pretty badly for years, with no knowledge of oedo years, key civs, etc. Going online, I learned many of these tricks, which helped a little. But the big leap was a comparison game at Apolyton, similar to these GOTMs. I conquered like most noobs do, with cannons etc, in about 1800 AD. But DaveV [the ICS author] conquered in approx 800AD, totally amazing me. With some gracious help from him, I managed to replay and conquer in approx 1000AD, then in approx 800AD, and then in approx 650AD. I guess I learned at least half of what I now know about conquest just from those few replays, and it applies pretty well on most any normal map, known or unknown.

Hope that wasn't ridiculously boring or off-topic. I'd be interested in stories from other players about how they learned to play.

 

[Hexer]

Offtopic, seriously, who cares anymore

You are right, over at civforum.de there are still a few scenario pbem games going with some good old-school gamers (http://civforum.de/forumdisplay.php?f=3 - english speaking people are welcome, of course). I don't like playing scenarios, so I'm not into this group anymore. They used to be a pure MP community (civ2liga.de) but got inactive two years ago.

I myself started with civ1 when I was 5-6 years old. I played it secretly on my brothers pc. Then my cousin infected me with civ2. At 2001 I found civforum.de. At this time there were only 20-30 active members in the forum. I never was able to play MP with them because internet-flatrate was available not until 2005-2006 where I lived. But i never really quit reading and discussing and played my SP games
"Milestone" in my civ2 history was when oedo joined our german chat and send me a 8MB - savegame-pack of their 1AD-ELG cooperation game (with paul, markusf...) on deity. At this time it was just "wow" and got really addicted. Soon I read about the 776AD landing by solo(?) and started to do ELGs by my self. But I never was able to do it before 1750 on deity so i tried early conquest and results were way better.

But then civ3 and later civ4 were released. Everyone quit playing civ2 and so did I.

Two years later I remembered civfanatics and their gotm and here I am.

Expect next status in the next 12 hours.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Why do you (and Ali) say that ? Are you talking mainly about special maps like this GOTM ?

For "normal" maps, I can see some obvious differences; eg knowing locations of huts, specials, other civs, and sea routes. But we all know ways to get this kind of info without a complete map ["map analysis" of hut/special patterns, MPE for AI locations, and black-clicking for sea routes and size-of-island info]. So, I think playing on an unknown map is not TOO different, and it still makes sense to compare results from such a game with the results of replay(s). I'd be more concerned about differences caused by luck, in hut popping or battles, especially before 2000BC or so.

I am heavily into map analysis (I believe I was the one who invented the phrase) but the power of map analysis is quite limited. Even when you can fully decipher the seed from available information, it cannot tell you the type of terrain, the location of rivers, and that of rivals. Furthermore, black clicking is next to useless when you are on continent 1 as in this game.

Sometimes the difference (between knowing the map and not) is not huge, at other times it is. For example, in this game I would have played a different starting game had I known about:
1. The rivers on my continent
2. The placement of the rivals

Another thing that can make a crucial difference is when you are on an island that is too far from other islands for a trireme except for one or two spots. While it is possible to figure this out when the island is not number 1, it is excruciatingly time consuming.

I'd be interested in stories from other players about how they learned to play.

When I bought Civ1, I got some kind of deluxe edition, which came with a playing guide besides the manual. I read the manual cover to cover and was amazed at the wealth of information there. I then read the guide which I found rather underwhelming even then. As I became a better player through experience I found some of the advice in that guide laughable. I became pretty good at Civ1 but other than some idle talk with friends I had no benchmark to compare my game against except my older games. This was in the 1990s before the web explosion.

I bought Civ2 for Mac soon after it was out. But life was so busy that I could not play much. I think I averaged something around 1 game per year! I did read the manual though and found it inferior to the Civ1 manual. My civ1 experience allowed me to play decent games though.

When I heard that Civ3 is in the works, I got on the web to find out about it and that is when I discovered this site. Soon after I played my first GOTM: GOTM 16. As I started reading the site, I was humbled by how much I did not know about the game. What blew my mind more than anything else was the OCC strategy though. Before the mere thought of attempting to win a game with a single city would have been ridiculous to me. OCC is still a favorite of mine and most of my recent personal games have been OCCs.

 

[Hexer]

1500BC Status report:

Well, I did expect something but not this. Long story short: Apollo was build in 1520BC and I'm currently discovering The Laser.

When I continued at 2000BC I wanted Babylon to get big and fully "upgraded" as soon as possible. With 500g/t I was able to build a building/wonder in every turn so within 5-6 turns there was a library, university, copernicus, newton, sewer system. WLTK happened at 30% luxury.

The first tradewave happened in 1760BC (appr. 1000g). I'm suprised by myself that I managed to emerge a steady flow of 8 freights/turn for over 10 turns (than I got greedy and rushbuild Apollo and had no money left for freights, stupid move). On each isle I built a city on the western and eastern coast connected with railroads and each city built a transporter. Thats why it was possible to build and transport each freight to Babylon in one turn with a transporter maximum of 8 units = 8 freights.

Here are some notes I wrote down on my paper:
-1760 first wave 1000g, 1 adv/turn from now on
-1680 Highways
-1640 1st 2 adv/turn, traded almost 2500g
-1560 2nd 2adv/turn (Seti)
-1520 3nd 2adv/turn, build Apollo

The 1500BC stats:
55 cities (13.720.000)
1265g/t on 100% tax
1 adv/turn on 60% science
72 total adv.
230 MT production
Babylon on size 25, 97 arrows

A sidenote: The Sioux are so far at 4 cities (size 4,4,3,2). Effective trading impossible.

Another sidenote: My play was far away from perfect. I just focused on Babylon and building caravans. I had no time to concentrate on supporter cities. I didn't even build a single aqueduct (except Babylon of course). With a little more focus on general micromanagement a 3 tech/turn would be possible for sure.

 

[Marlos]

When I picked up this GOTM, I hadn't played Civ (any type) for a couple of years or so. But this game intrigued me, since one of my loves of Civ2 was terraforming, and since the whole world was tundra, well, I would be in heaven!

Ha, ha! First you have to GET there (idiot!), and the trip was a strange one. After developing a fair number of trade arrows from the fur specials, I located a couple of rivers. But they were far from Beijing, so corruption was a serious issue. Figured I didn't need Pyramids, but started an SSC once I found a river! Those shields I wasted on STWA and Leo's could have been used elsewhere, I found out!

I had built a fair-sized military, before I started to realize that I was the only "ice-dweller". Still had to protect against the occasional barb invasion (those explorers just cannot defend themselves against eight horsemen!), but had a paradigm shift in strategy after realizing I was alone.

Switched to Democracy, which solved the corruption problem, and upon disbanding my military ("I'll grind ye bones to make me bread!"), production was fair. I bought several factories upon accumulating 25 shields in a city, figuring I would need the shields for my spaceship.

Terraforming 100% tundra proved to be a frustrating exercise. More like "build engineer and hope you can terraform fast enough so that you don't starve him out!" It took me awhile to recall that little trick called food caravans.

Generally, I never spen too much time doing map analysis, but I used to keep charts (number of cities & advances vs. opponents, for example) and sometimes logs. Maybe I'll start that again for GOTMs.

As for my Civ history, my ex-brother-in-law came over one day with Civ1 on a couple of floppies, announcing "You've got to try this!" and I was hooked shortly after. When Civ2 came out, I couldn't master it at first, but after a couple of humiliations, I decided that the "stay in your opponent's kitchen" strategy kept them out of yours, and it has served me well. Bought Civ3 with great anticipation, played it once, HATED IT, and went back to 2. I played 2 for a long while, but stopped after discovering Half-Life. Still a fun game, though!

 

[Hexer]

Short 1000 BC report:

Last 25 turns were just about optimizing the civ and spamming more cities on my isles to make "zoom to city" a bit easier. Most cities are now at size 13-14 + marketplace + bank. I want at least 50 cities on my isles to get a 6AD landing.

64 cities (38.560.000)
2 Future-Techs
appr 2700g/t on 90% tax (need 10% lux)

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Hexer, your stats are impressive. It shows how different a game can be if the map is known. I do not think I made any major mistakes. I did have some minor bad luck, such as the first hut not giving me a unit and deciding to explore east and west before going south where all the rivers were.

I just finished playing to year +1. My log follows. The challenge now is to find enough real time to finish.