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Gotm 108 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Peaster, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Wow ! What a map !

    The rule of thumb is to avoid the spoiler thread until you have played to 1 AD. That is often considered a halfway point. You may want to wait until 1000AD on this one. I have already played past 1000 AD - which I NEVER do - and I have not conquered, or even explored, half the map yet. Yet, as far as I know, my game is going about as well as possible.

    I'll probably post a log later. The main decisions were these:

    * I used the size one trick twice. This required 6 turns wandering westwards to find an iron special, and the two other settlers wandered even longer. But you've gotta go west anyway, so I think the time was well spent.

    * I split my [early] civ into separate East and West clusters. The West Civ was founded by the long-wandering settlers and their offspring. Its main goal was to reach the first sea by the time I got mapmaking, and to prepare flotillas ASAP. Secondly, to deal with any AIs on the way, and eventually to make roads for armies and vans. The East Civ ICS'd until it could focus on making vans, for WoWs, and eventually for overseas trade. This plan worked out OK, but the West Civ suffered terrible corruption and waste, especially before Monarchy in 1050 BC.

    * I bypassed the Mongols and Spanish, with as little fighting as possible, always focusing on a Westward push. I eventually destroyed the Mongols in 800 AD to clear the road system and lower my defense costs. I am keeping 2 Spanish cities as pets, with Persia starting to follow the same pattern.

    * Eventually, I realized this is going to be a long long game ... at least 80 turns longer than any known "early conquest" game, maybe even extending into the modern age. So, I switched to Republic in 540 AD, and am planning a big-trade game to get modern techs ASAP. Just in case crusaders are obsolete before I reach Rome.

    The good news is the Persians and Vikings seem to have their science permanently set to zero. The Persians offered little resistance [but it did take 20 to 30 turns to get past dozens of Settlers and warriors wandering thru the mountains]. But the Romans are just the opposite, and they are still slightly ahead of me in science.

    The other bad news is that trade potential seems mediocre; no great STC sites, almost no Hides supply, no possibilities for long ship chains. I am building long roads instead, but it is slow. It is the Grand Canyon, after all, so the roads need many bridges and/or deep cuts thru mts. Can anyone solve this econ puzzle ?

    If you want to compare games in detail, I can post a log and / or stats. In addition to the usual growth stats, it might be interesting to compare the dates we get to the other CIVs.

    I am REALLY enjoying this GOTM. I think I'll conquer before 2020 AD, but have some real doubts for the first time in years. I feel a bit sorry for any newbies that might wander into this one though ! :cry:
     
  2. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    This is my first attempt at a GOTM (I just found CFC about a month ago). Also my first post to a spoiler). I hope I am not saying too much. I have learned a lot from the site (I have been playing for over 10 years, usually on Diety and almost always win by building the complete spaceship). Early Conquest and Early Landing, OCC and the power of trade were unknown to be before I found CFC.

    So, although I have learned a lot in a month, I don't think I am going to be able to win this one. This map is just HUGE. I probably should have done a number of things differently (Peaster makes some good points about keeping pet cities for trade (which I have never tried) and constantly pressing westward). Like Peaster, Monarchy was established in 1050 AD (it was discovered in 1150 the same year as I contacted the Mongols). I destroyed the Mongols in 460 AD, the Spanish in 1440 and the Persians in 1790.

    Trade has been pretty bad for me as well. Of course, I am still in Monarchy (afraid to switch due to support cost issues). I think my largest delivery was an undemanded Gems delivery to Madrid that got 140 gold. I conquered Madrid immediately after making the delivery.

    It is currently 1824. My lead explorer is at 208,12. With only about 170 turns to go, my success is in doubt. I will keep pushing until the end. I just discovered Railroad, but I think it may have come too late (no explosives yet).

    By the way, Peaster noted that the Persian seemed to have their tech set to zero. I noticed this as well. I also noticed that they did not have a capital (check intelligence after establishing an embassy). I think the lack of a capital caused this problem. I can't talk about the Vikings yet (I haven't met them), but they were able to build the Great Library and Magellan's in my game, so they got some research from somewhere.
     
  3. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    As far as I know, you can say anything about your game in the spoiler thread. It is the other guy's responsibility not to read it too early.
    :lol: Yeah - I tried to warn people about that in the main thread, but couldn't say very much there. This is a pretty tough GOTM to start with. Well, even if we don't win, I think this map is fun.

    There are different opinions on Trade. Personally, if I expect less than 100g from a van, I usually don't even bother making it, and in some games I skip trade completely. In this game, I have invested pretty heavily in trade, and now have over 100 vans, mostly marching from Eastern Japan to Persia [or maybe Spain for faster payoffs]. Bonuses have varied from about 150g to 650g, until Invention.

    That doesn't sound so bad. I think you can do it if you have other troops nearby and keep pushing.

    Yeah, and I don't think the Persian Empress even had a name. Maybe Magic did all this on purpose to add some variety to the game ? In my game, the Vikings woke up around 1000AD. They built a capital, approx 25 cities, the Lighthouse and Great Wall, and started getting an advance every turn or so. I am just now entering their lands, hoping for either massive bribery or for Metallurgy soon, to cancel their Wall.

    BTW - I have a good real-life Great Wall story, but maybe this isn't the place.:confused:
     
  4. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    You can tell everything in a spoiler thread about the game. However it is not allowed to mention the score.

    @Peaster: you can perhaps tell you're Great Wall story in the stories and tales section??

    When loading the scenario the Persians started with no name. Don't know why but it wasn't important to me to change it.

    Why some civ's have or had no capitol is not known to me. Perhaps I did something wrong when developing the map. But as I read the fun is not less....
     
  5. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    I don't really want to recap my whole game here, but I have a couple other quick items and revisions.

    In my original post I said I hadn't changed from Monarchy due to support cost issues. The reality is, I haven't changed from Monarchy because I never researched Republic. I guess I never really intended to switch, so why research something I wouldn't use.

    The turn (1826 AD) after my original post (1824 AD), I finally contacted the Vikings (at 200,12). They asked to trade Republic for Railroad, I declined. They demanded Railroad, I declined (the Great Wall kept them from declaring war, I built it so the AI wouldn't). I made peace, gave them Railroad (maybe they will build some to make my conquering them easier), Physics and Trade. They shared Maps. Not too pleased but I guess it could be worse. I think they have about 20 cities and I can see a couple of Roman cities.

    It is now 1850. My railroads across the Japanese continent and the Spanish/Persian continent are almost complete and my army of about 30 Veteran Crusaders are getting close to the Viking city on the mostly empty Continent 4.
     
  6. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    1762 AD Not done yet, not even halfway thru the Vikings yet, but I see a big light at the end of the tunnel. With Exposives and RR, I have built RRs across most of the Eastern half of the Canyon. Somehow, trade improved after a switch from Republic to Fundy, and with RRs, the Jap economy is now booming. Approx 1 adv per turn, even with science set at zero.

    For some reason, I'd hoped to avoid Modern combat. But as long as the AI is stuck in the Dark Ages, it is great. Spies can zip along a river at warp speed and Engineers can help Cavalry zip up to the front too. Alpine Troops should be ideal on this map, too, but haven't made any yet.

    One unique problem on this map is crossing the little sea just East of the Viking lands, and just West of the broad wasteland "4". One obvious solution is to send settlers slowly across "4" to build ports, to build boats. But in my game, the Viking map revealed Viking boats on that sea, so I sent diplomats there to bribe them from the Eastern coast. One idea was to get NONE boats, and another was that dips can travel twice as fast as settlers.

    This solution worked pretty well. However, the Vikings had crossed the sea before I arrived, and built Jelling on my side [but not on the coast]. After 2 turns fishing for Viking boats, without success, I bribed Jelling, to make a settler/engineer to build a port. Arrgh - The very next turn, my dips were able to bribe a boat, which led to a second bribed boat [not NONES, but I guess that's OK]. I am curious how others got across ... I guess that if you have them, it is simpler to send engineers, which are just as fast as dips. I don't see how a swarm of crusaders could do it though, unless they were lucky enough to capture a port on the East coast.

    Also, I am curious how people choose their govts in this game. Monarchy is a standard choice for EC players and should be OK here. I chose Republic for the science + econ advantages, and the city growth rate, but sacrificed lot fo shields, and probably stuck with it a bit too long. I was overruled by my Senate a few times too many, and was spending too much RL time micromanaging my cities. Now, Fundy seems much simpler and better. Communism and Demo also seem reasonable for this game ... not at all sure what's best here.

    I'm seeing this GOTM as slightly similar to #58 [The Gauntlet]. But 58 had much more water, which allowed faster movement and earlier overseas trade. Also, the 250x40 map in 58 made it easier to bypass AIs, if desired. So, #108 is clearly tougher to finish quickly. The only advantage I can see in #108 is in super-long RRs for super-trade. But that comes pretty late in the game, at least for me.
     
  7. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    In my game (still going on, only the Romans are left), I also tried to bribe some Viking ships. I was able to bribe 1 caravel (which upgraded to a galleon a few turns later (thanks Leo)), but I couldn't find anymore (at least not empty). The one caravel I bribed cost 270 to bribe. My treasury was about 1100 at the time, so I probably wouldn't have been able to bribe very many.

    Most of my railroad across "4" was built in 12 turns with my team of 30+ engineers. I would have never been able to build it that fast without the knowledge I picked up from CFC. I suppose I knew that engineers could 'pre-charge' but I had never specifically tried to do it. Also, the whole working as a team thing was unknown to me. I built 4 towns as 'bridges' across the Mountain/River (since it takes 4 engineer turns to build the road and then 7 or 8 engineer turns to build the railroad, I thought it was better to 'sacrifice' one engineer to save a lot of time) I also had some time to irrigate around these towns while I was going through the few mountains that I decided I had to go over.

    After I reached the west coast, I built 2 ports. I waited 2 turns building ships and finishing the research of metallurgy before demanding tribute from both the Vikings and Romans. They both declared war on me. I then attacked the Vikings and took over 4 cities on the first turn (including their port on the East Coast of "1"). Each city gave me the last 4 advances that the Vikings had done (Industrialization (all galleons upgrade to transport), Democracy, Economics and Banking). With the increased carrying capacity of the transports, I was able to bring a few vans to "1' and deliver them on the next turn along with a number of fighting troops. I was very surprised when my first delivery (Copper (demanded)) earned a payment of 555. 5 years later I was able to make my first delivery to the Roman town of Sigtuna. I delivered Silk (demanded) and was paid 1400. Trade was finally back in a big way. After getting the gold from the vans, I stopped attacking the Vikings and was able to bribe the rest.

    The Romans are currently in democracy, so I guess I will have to actually fight the cities. They have 15 cities (12 of them are building Women's Suffrage, seems a bit excessive). I have 28 Veteran Cannons and 28 Veteran Crusaders, so I hope it will be enough. I will probably only be able to attack a few cities at a time (based on the terrain), so it should be enough. Artillery is probably a few turns away. I will have to think hard about whether to research it (since all my veteran cannons will become non-veteran artillery).
     
  8. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Chieftain

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    Before I started playing I had visions of the AI building cities on mountain river squares. Luckily they don't, that would have made it near impossible. I built kyoto on 494,8 the mountain river square. I thought it had been a mistake for ages, until I found the gold mountain nearby.
    My first plan was to build settlers and explore. I came across the mongols quite quickly, but took time to get a big enough force & elephants to take them on. Defeated them about 1ad. Defeated the spanish in 740.
    It's 780 now and I changed to republic after defeating the spanish.This is going to take ages, but is good fun.
     
  9. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    1792 Have started on the Romans, who have several big walled cities, but they are still 1-2 techs away from Demo, and probably won't get there. I have about 100 invaders, mostly Cavalry, but with a mix of spies, alpines, engineers and armor, probably an unstoppable tidal wave. No more worries [none for the past 20-30 turns really].

    So, after playing for 50 hours or so, I am still wondering - what is the best way to approach this GOTM ? I have noticed that my Spies have taken far more AI cities for Japan than my 70 Cavalry, mainly because they move faster [Alpines and Armor move almost as fast, but have entered the game more recently]. IMO the central question of this GOTM for EC players, especially in the second half, is:

    How fast can you advance your front line ?

    I have gone from <125,y> to <52,y> in the last 13 turns; an average x-distance of about 5 [or 2.5 horizontal tiles]. This is probably slower than GOTMs with ships, but faster than crusaders can move along twisty rivers. I think a large team of Engineers [making RRs across grass] might be able to advance faster, but I didn't really test this idea in my game, and am not sure how obstacles, like mts and AIs, would affect their speed. So, maybe this GOTM calls for a completely different EC paradigm.

    Normal EC Paradigm: Grow to at least 10 cities. Then send out flotillas ASAP, filled with Elephants, or whatever else you've got. Don't worry about techs past Polytheism.

    GOTM 108 Paradigm ? Research Explosives, Espionage and RR ASAP, to create the fastest possible invading force. This may require some early expansion [for trade or tribute] and ICS growth [for trade and massive production of units later on].

    I used the normal one, and am not sure the other one is better, but if I were to play again, I'd definitely try it out. Ironicly, it is pretty similar to the newbie paradigm - build an advanced Civ before engaging in war with the big bad AIs! I hope to hear other players' opinions / experiences on this.
     
  10. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    I think I am now 2 turns from finishing the game. There are 7 Roman cities left, but I should be in position to kill them all in 2 turns.

    I currently have 95 engineers active. Do most players "build" those engineers into their cities to increase the final score? Or is that discouraged?
     
  11. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Nice !! You're obviously a fast learner !! :goodjob:

    It is OK to increase your final score that way. You can also increase luxuries to the max, to get happier citizens, which helps your score. You can build Wonders, even obsolete ones, for 20 points each. You can probably increase your score even more by celebrating in Democracy [or Republic] to get bigger cities.

    I will do all those things if I'm trying for the Gold medal, but skip them if trying for Green (speed) or if just playing for the fun of it. I just finished this one - by far the longest GOTM I've played - and am very tired, but satisfied. I played about 4 quick turns in Demo at the end for a few more points. "Quick" means my units were asleep, or disbanded, and I ignored all the city build messages.
     
  12. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    Prior to playing this map, I don't think I had ever built a city on a mountain. In this game I built a total of 25 cities. 10 of my cities were built on Mountain/Rivers to several as road/railroad bridges. Another 3 cities were built on mountain squares to serve as ports.

    I was just wondering if the other players built a lot of these types of cities?
     
  13. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    I built about 100 cities, including 5 on mts for ports and 5 on mt-rivers for bridges. Your idea of building lots of them on mt-rivers to speed up road/RR construction intrigued me, but I didn't really analyze it, or use it, during my game, mainly because I read it in this spoiler.

    Another issue in my game was that my front lines [eg spies and cavalry, etc] were always a little ahead of my roadbuilders. They never had to slow down much, especially in the latter half, since I had tons of gold for bribery. So, my roads were not really very important to the conquest. I kept building them, mainly to bring forward backup units and caravans, but without great zeal.

    I am curious whether it is possible and practical to build roads ahead of the other units on this map [see my previous posts] ? I think I had about 65 engineers near the end, spread out over all the continents, mostly finishing up RRs or adding irrigation [for Demo-growth]. But I notice you had about 100, and you probably built roads more aggressively. Was that more successful ? Did your roads help you conquer faster ?
     
  14. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Chieftain

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    Nearly at 1800's and still not reached Vikings, though quite near. However, I switched to democray and sent vans from ex-persia & ex-spain to capital, getting about 400 had one for 896. Getting about a tech a turn now. 55 vans active at the moment and just discovered flight, so I should be able to use spies and bombers to take vikings and romans. This is a long hard slog, good fun though.
     
  15. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Chin up, CharlieChuck ! I had a similar moment in my game, and that's when it started getting easy [though you still have a lotta map left].
     
  16. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Chieftain

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    One thing I have notived is, I've not been spending money most cities are size 5 or 6 so there's ntohign to spend it on. The result is I've got 23,000 gold, should come in helpful for the final push.
     
  17. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I'm finally reached the island with Vikings and Russians. I started well and got Monarchy at 1650 BC but when moving west I waited to long trading. So my science didn't go fast enough. After finally getting railroad I reached the Vikings. They are democracy and having riflemen now... so no bribing cities and tough fighting. I only have time to play a few turns a day while there is no much free time to play. It's around 1850 AD and I hope I can move quickly to the russians. When I have more time I post a log....
     
  18. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    @CC and MG: Democracy is a drag! But you will do fine, if you are ahead in Modern Age weaponry, like armor and bombers.
     
  19. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    Sometimes I will build on a mountain if there are good resources nearby. It helps maintain a steady however slow growth during early game. It makes a good defensive city. In late game after engineers, you can tranform it to a hill or plains for better growth.
     
  20. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

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    I love this map!

    However, it seemed clear after MPE that this was going to be a Really Long game so my first goal was to minimize the number of RL hours so that I could have a chance at finishing. So Fundy was clearly in the cards, and I also thought of explosives and Leonardo for the same reason.

    So my score is not going to be competitive, but I am having lots of fun.

    While I was trying to get through the tech tree, I was lazy finishing off the Mongols. Explosives came halfway through the Persians. I have just reached the sea across from the Vikings in around 1850. But RL time is definitely less than 20 hours so far. I won't be able to get back to the game until after Easter, but I have a lot of money and a ton of dips waiting to bribe my way through the Vikings (whose maps I do not have, nor will I get). I am beelining espionage already.
     

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