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GOTM 119 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Inkerman, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    In the game announcement thread the newcomer had said...

    “It's a large map, twice as big as I'm used to, making for a potentially too long real-time game. But, we seem amazingly well-placed for trade specials and you have access to the ocean, so I suspect several of the eminences will complete a one city challenge. For me, with very limited experience trying to manage other civs, (and the three I can see already via the top five cities aren't likely to be a set of pussycats), that would be too ambitious. Similarly I've never done “early conquest” and this doesn't seem the time to try, with a large map and restarts on. So I must admit I am a bit worried how long this is going to take, particularly in the later turns if it comes to a big war, and particularly if I use overlapping cities to speed early development, and carry out significant managed trade as we always seem to here.

    As to the start I have confused myself somewhat by black clicking. I haven't ever done this before but I guessed I better had to try and avoid acute embarrassment from an avoidable blunder. There is a vast majority of landmass/ocean '1' so maybe there just is a lot of ocean and it won't be so long a game after all. But I found we are on continent 1 at the start, and yet continent 3 seems adjacent to the west, the very next square to the city view? What does this mean, other than to send a unit down the river that way soon, I don't know?

    As to the decisions I think I'll build just here right now, in fact I've done it already, and I will get a settler before an exploratory warrior. I research Alphabet because it's top of the list and on the way to Monarchy, and I will work the silk on the river as it is 1 food, 2 shields and 3 arrows. We can have the settler done before Madrid grows too much, and meanwhile we bank a few $. “

    ------------------------
    Wherein the newcomer begins to find his way around the Grand Hall of GOTM
    ------------------------

    The newcomer said thanks for the offer of a coffee but he would just get straight into the game as he expected it would take most of the month given the inefficient way he played. Going to the playing area he sat on a wooden stool, unpacked a dirty twenty year-old IBM keyboard (you can't get the same quality these days), an off-white CRT, and a PC that ran a version of Windows that was already out-of-date when it was bought all those years ago. The disk screeched into life. He resumed the game. Wearing headphones and pausing occasionally to consult a bit of paper from several in a repurposed, battered blue folder, and making notes as he went, he clicked on.

    Many, many hours later he had some thoughts.

    "The plan, as suggested in the earlier remarks in the game announcement thread, was to play in a way with which I am generally familiar. Not one city challenge or trying to be particularly early or quick. Rather I'll take things as they come, building a position for an eventual spaceship as a democracy, with an entertaining experience along the way. Of course this is buying in for a long game.

    Given the size of the map Marco Polo seemed vital."

    Early Game.

    Ah my mistake on the black-clicking. I see area 1 is both our continent and ocean, and the area 3 I could see just off the city view is a different body of water. I'll remember that if we are on continent 1, and an adjacent space is not 1, it must be water. In this game I built my second city, Seville, on this body of water as that was the direction the settlers had gone.

    Thinking about this suggested to me we could have a very large continent, as turned out to be the case. (In fact I only got a full idea about what connected where at the time we had planes.)

    You may be amused that my log records third city Toledo is built on the coast, only to note a few turns later it was in fact on a one square lake.

    Building Seville immediately brought me into contact with a militarily stronger Vikings, which was much earlier than I expected to see anyone. I will be interested to hear how other people handled this encounter if they had it too. Both diplomatically and whether it influences your direction of development? I was not able to take very much advantage I fear, it was really just a pain. I ended up a bit on the fence with too much idle military; maybe, as my advisor is wont to say, “let's go and bonk some heads”?

    My other main thought in these early years was not being confident of which technology to choose at each stage. As noted before my intention was Monarchy as soon as possible, but even if that is right there is a choice for the off-path and options on the order.
    For the record I went:
    Alphabet → Bronze Working → Ceremonial Burial + (Warrior Code from hut)
    → Code of Laws → Currency (as Monarchy not offered) → Monarchy (1250BC)
    → Trade.

    Early Middle Game.

    I thought it was splendid news when top five cities revealed we had the Mongols making up the numbers for the game. As I appear to be supreme, which doesn't often happen to me at this stage, I believe they are my key civ, to which I should gift technologies. Terrific, not sure I can bring myself to do that.

    I got on well with the Romans; they traded technologies and provided destinations for caravans.

    I was able to build Colossus and Hanging Gardens in Madrid. The other ancient wonders went to other civilizations. Normally I only get one, and not my first choice!

    I realised I was doing better than I had expected. I think the “King” level we were on was quite forgiving compared to other games I have had personally anyway, if not so much for comparison with other people's GOTM119s. Maybe I can be more ambitious?

    In AD120 I did secure Marco Polo, and at that point paused to take stock. I was 12 techs ahead of the Mongols: I gave them a couple and we swapped maps. It didn't seem to affect my science cost? Should they have had more given to them would that have made a difference – I will find out another time rather than here and now I thought.

    At this point I also had to decide how much to give away to other civs? Is it worth considering letting Copernicus go so the other civs can move the game on more quickly?

    Enough for now.
     
  2. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Location:
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    I already played after 1000 AD...

    Everything is going well. Had also some trouble with the Vikings but I decided to delay everything for a while and destroy them first. Madrid build Hanging Gardens, Marco Polo before 1 AD and more followed. I did not trade much with the Romans/Japanese because I needed the space to expand (they both were destroyed). Instead I traded a lot with the French who respawned on a nearby island.

    At the moment I have around 150 cities and still expanding. I'm surprised our continent is very big. But I finally reached the Persians (by land)....and close to the computer tech....

    Power Democacy is working nicely and don't expect a lot of trouble with the other civ's on our island.
     
  3. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    470
    I'm at 1530 AD. I messed up my game, getting Monarchy from a hut at 2750 BC but forgetting to switch... only did that 1000 years later. Probably not a good idea starting that one straight after finishing GOTM 118. I also accidentally took 3 turns of anarchy to attack the Japs instead of 1: GOTM 116 experience (did not submit) told me that when renouncing a treaty under Republic (when the AI ordered a withdraw) that government did not collapse. Apparently not the case this time.

    I made so many mistakes in that game... it's almost a shame that everything is going very well.

    I also had some trouble with Viks. Gifted at first, got Chariot from hut, that wiped out 2/3 Vik cities before getting killed by last forted Phalanx at Trondheim (chariot was vet) I then tried with eles, but that failed: their defenders were probably vets. I had to bring in vet eles from my own to take down the Vikes.

    Lucky you! The only offshore respawns I got were after I hit the 255 cities mark.



    I only had 101 at 1000 AD! Well, that's where trade comes in. I was unable to do any significant trade until Railroad because of the single continent.

    From my pre-game log brainstorm:

    What I actually did? Apart from the Monarchy fiasco, I ended up being even more aggressive than I planned because of the Vikings. The troops involved in the Vik campaign ended up, afterwards, crushing the Romans, taking half of Japan down (including capitol) before Senate stopped me, and taking down Greek capitol and 2 other cities. All that, despite unusually heavy casualties.

    Also, the warrior decision was good I think: got a nomad when Madrid was still building a settler.

    I will start posting the actual game log when I'll be done with my game. I think a week or so. Maybe a bit more.
     
  4. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    2,832
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    I played till -250 earlier today when I built Marco and exchanged maps with all rivals. Finding all rivals on one large continent is a surprise. Thanks Magic for keeping the map interesting.

    My original plan was to win via the space race and still is. However, when I ran into Vikings in -3000 I decided to eliminate them first. They were too close for comfort. I initially gave them a tech to keep them from attacking me. Then I produced some military units and even changed my tech plan and researched Horseback riding on my own, something I almost never do. I produced horsemen, elephants, and diplomats. I conquered some Viking cities and bribed a few. I lost a few units too and eventually took Trondheim with the help of my first vet Crusader produced in the former Viking city of Kaupang. Vikings were destroyed in -425. They were never a threat to me and my war with them was all offensive.

    Hut luck was wonderful at the beginning but shortly before -1000 I got 8 barbarian horsemen from two separate huts in successive turns. This caused a real emergency. I lost two units, a warrior and a phalanx, and two others barely survived. A rushed diplomat bought one of them and I used it to kill a few others. I also had to rush a horseman. Fortunately I did not lose any cities, but it was close.

    I will post a log soon.
     
  5. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    In general when the starting position is on land mass 1, black clicking is useless.
     
  6. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    At the moment I just played a few turns after 1500 AD. Almost all possible cities build and starting to build my spaceship.....

    This map made it difficult to expand quickly. At least not as quickly as I want....but right now it's going real fast. The Greek are almost gone (1 city). Only Mongols are the original civs. All other civ's are respawned and have 1 or 2 cities....

    It's now only a game to expand and get a nice score...
     
  7. haleewud

    haleewud Chieftain

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    I must be playing a similar game to Magic. I also just went past 1500 AD. Mongols are down to 1 city. Persians were no threat to me (and built no wonders) so they are still alive. The others have been killed and respawned. I did kill the Vikings pretty early and they respawned as the French. When I killed the French (well before 1500 AD), they did not respawn. I could built Apollo and Spaceship, but I am still expanding my empire.
     
  8. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Evidently a slower middle game from me, not unexpectedly; I still had all the original AI civilizations in 1500. It was the year their attitudes to me suddenly shifted adversely, from 5 neutral or better to 5 icy or worse. All I did was make a discovery (no, not space flight which is known to provoke them - still way in the future for me at this time.)

    Anyone care to advise on what technology gap to aim for between us and the purple civ, to balance a military advantage against tech cost? Perhaps it is becoming rather irrelevant by this stage i.e. just leave them behind? I had the Spanish 30 techs ahead of the key civ at this time and felt it might be overdoing it.
    The reason this was possible was the other civs made almost no friendly contact with each other.
     
  9. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Joined:
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    A good idea while techbombing is to aggressively curtail the target civ (or all other civs) Another strategy, which I used (not enough) in this game was to pay the purple civ to fight wars, so they don't grow and instead fight.

    When techbombing, I try to give them primarily non-military techs (i.e. not Gunpowder and the like) but I will give anything they demand if I want them in Demo for trading purposes. I generally bomb by group of 3 techs, while retaining for myself the ''dangerous'' techs such as Gunpowder. Of course, I tend to be rather aggressive, so a peaceful player might have other opinions.

    Exact same thing happened with the Germans, Chinese and Mongols at 1500 AD during my game! Turn 201. IIRC, the same thing happened to me during GOTM 118 with the Greeks, at 1 AD (turn 201) I'm pretty sure that there is a setting that forces a downgrade of attitude based on time...

    If my memory is accurate...
    This from a succession game post played under MGE (quote not exactly like that):

    1750 AD under Deity is turn 201...
     
  10. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    This game I did not tech bomb purple. Because the type of game I'm playing I don't mind getting some techs earlier. This time it's all about expanding.... But normally I do it the same way Jokemaster describes it....
     
  11. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Except for Ali, I can't easily tell if people are playing for conquest or landing or score, so not much to say yet. If you are playing for EC, you seem slow! I'm at 300BC, playing for EC. All is OK, no conquests yet, but several outposts, 4 WoWs, about 40 cities.

    With the beautiful site for Madrid (and restarts on, large map, etc), I was sure that Big Trade would play a key role. My early plans involved an STC at Madrid, with Hides vans and Colossus. But there are no overseas AI to trade with ! With bonuses at 50% normal, I may skip that whole idea, but am colonizing a few islands in case I need it later.
     
  12. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    2,832
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Date Notes

    -4000 Madrid founded.
    -3950 -> Alphabet
    -3850 Alphabet -> Ceremonial Burial.
    -3800 Warrior produced. Settler started.
    -3750 Empty hut.
    -3600 Empty hut again?!
    -3550 Ceremonial Burial -> Bronze Working.
    -3200 Size 1 settler produced.
    -3150 Seville founded on river with sea access. 50g from hut.
    -3100 Bronze Working -> Code of Laws.
    -3000 Viking horseman near Seville meets fresh warrior. Ceremonial Burial -> Viking (5) -> peace.
    -2950 None Legion from hut.
    -2800 Code of Laws -> Monarchy.
    -2700 Seville builds Phalanx in fear of Vikings. None horseman from hut.
    -2500 Had to disband a warrior.
    -2450 Monarchy -> Currency. Monarchy established. T3L0S7. Toledo founded. Advanced Tribe founds Cordoba.
    -2200 Currency -> Trade.
    -2000 Nomad from hut

    Status at -2000
    Population: 0.06M; Cities: 4; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 26; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 6; Production: 12; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders:
    Units: 3 settlers (1 None), 1 warriors, 2 Phalanx, 1 None Legion. 1 None Horseman
    Roman: No contact
    Japanese: No contact
    Viking: No embassy
    ?: No contact
    Greek: No contact
    ?: No contact

    -1950 Trade -> Writing. Valencia founded.
    -1850 Salamanca founded.
    -1800 Barcelona founded.
    -1700 Writing -> Mapmaking.
    -1650 Barbarian horseman from hut.
    -1600 Phalanx survives barbarian. Valladolid founded.
    -1450 Viking horseman dies in attack on my fortified legion. Mapmaking -> Horseback riding.
    -1350 8 barbarian horsemen from hut. Saragossa founded.
    -1300 Barbarians kill my Phalanx. First Trireme produced. 8 more barbarians from hut.
    -1250 Barbarians kill my Warrior.Viking Uppsala razed.
    -1200 Legion survives two Viking warriors. Barbarian horseman bought for 41 and used to kill another.
    -1150 None settler survives barbarian horseman, Legion another Viking warrior. First caravan built. Horseback riding -> Polytheism.
    -1100 Fortified phalanx survives barbarian horseman. Horseman kills barbarian horseman. Cadiz founded.
    -1050 Last barbarian horseman in sight killed. 2 barbarian horsemen from polar hut disappear the next turn.

    Status at -1000
    Population: 0.25M; Cities: 10; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 48; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 10; Production: 35; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders:
    Units: 4 settlers (1 None), 2 warriors, 2 Phalanx, 1 None Legion, 3 Horsemen (1 None), 1 Trireme, 1 Diplomat, 1 Caravan
    Roman: No contact
    Japanese: No contact
    Viking: No embassy
    Persian: No contact
    Greek: No contact
    Mongol: No contact

    -0975 None Legion from hut.
    -0950 Polytheism -> Mysticism. Bilbao and Granada founded.
    -0925 Phalanx defender of Kaupang killed. Defenseless Kaupang bribed for 50g. Got 14g, barracks, and Pottery. Another barbarian horseman killed.
    -0900 Accepted Viking offer of 50g for a cease fire. 100g from hut.
    -0875 Malaga and Pamplona founded. Warrior runs into Romans. Trade -> Roman(4) -> Literacy, peace.
    -0775 Mysticism -> Masonry. Abskun and Avila founded.
    -0725 Accepted Viking offer of 50g for peace. T7L0S3
    -0700 Leon founded.
    -0675 Burgos founded. 25g from hut.
    -0625 Roman -> 100g. Viking Hladir bribed for 144g. Vikings declare war. Got 5g, Masonry, and 2 units. Vet elephant kills Phalanx defending Trondheim.
    -0600 -> Philosophy. Lost 2 units in attack on Trondheim.
    -0575 Colossus built in Madrid as the first WOW. T3L0S7. Lost a None horseman on Trondheim.
    -0525 Philosophy -> Monotheism -> Construction. Hides from Madrid to Trondheim for 120 establishes the first trade route. Roman -> 50g.
    -0450 Oviedo founded.
    -0425 Construction -> Seafaring. Losing one Vet elephant and with the aid of a vet crusader and a vet legion Trondheims two phalanx defenders are killed and the city taken for 20g. Viking civilization destroyed.
    -0400 Santander founded. T7L0S3
    -0375 Ciudad Rodrigo founded. Hides to Roman Veii for 76.
    -0350 Philosophy, Construction, Monarchy -> Roman(4) -> Republic, 0g.
    -0300 2 Legions from hut. Calatrava founded.
    -0275 Cartagena founded. Silver from Madrid to Rome for 320.
    -0250 Seafaring -> Math. Marco built. Naples founded. T3L0S7. Roman (4) -> maps.
    Construction, Horseback riding -> Japanese (5) -> Iron Working, peace
    Mapmaking, Iron Working -> Mongol (2) -> Wheel, peace, maps
    Construction, Republic -> Persian (1) -> peace, maps
    Mapmaking, Construction -> Greek (3) -> peace, maps, 100g
    Trade, Construction, Republic -> French (0) -> peace, maps
    -0225 Issus and Cunaxa founded. Republic -> Japanese (5) -> maps. Math from hut.
    -0200 -> Bridge Building. Roman -> 75g. Japanese, Persian -> 0g. Cremona founded.
    -0175 Hanging Gardens built. 50g and 6 barbarian horsemen from huts. Explorer escapes. Greek, Mongol -> 0g. Cannae founded.
    -0125 Roman -> 50g. All others ignore my demands.
    -0100 Gems to Romans for 84. Capua and Turin founded.
    -0075 Barbarian horseman kills my explorer. Medicine from hut. Barbarian horsemen from hut kill my explorer the next turn.
    -0050 Genoa founded. First harbor built. Roman -> 0g.
    -0025 Bridge Building -> Engineering. Barbarian horseman killed. Crete founded.
    +0001 Verona founded. Roman -> 0g. Tech bombed Mongols and got 50g. Philosophy -> Persian -> 100g. Greek, Japanese -> 0g

    Status at +0001
    Population: 1.29M; Cities: 36; Trade routes: 2D3F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 134; Cost per turn: 2; Total advances: 25; Production: 129; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Marco
    Units: 24 settlers (1 None), 5 warriors, 3 Phalanx, 4 Legion, 1 Horsemen , 1 Crusader, 4 Trireme, 2 Diplomat, 6 Caravan, 1 Explorer
    Roman: 5 cities, 18 techs
    Japanese: 10 cities, 13 techs; war with Persians
    French: 2 cities, 12 techs
    Persian: 1 cities, 12 techs; war with Japanese
    Greek: 5 cities, 14 techs; war with Mongols
    Mongol: 4 cities, 17 techs; war with Greeks
     
  13. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Joined:
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    Finished and submitted my game. Won by conquest. Here is the first part of my log.

    Date Notes

    4000 BC: Madrid built. Warrior started. Work silk. T4L0S6. Techrate 4 turns.

    3950 BC: Start researching Alphabet.

    3850 BC: Switch workers from Silk to Spice. I think I should have done that the turn prior... already a mistake. Note to self: Don’t start GOTM’s the day you see them. Warrior built next turn.

    3800 BC: Discover Alphabet, start Code of Laws. Warrior built, work silk. Warrior pops hut at (176, 30) Cartography.

    3650 BC: Rush 1s in Madrid.

    3450 BC: Seems like the 4-way river has some great potential for cities, with a lot of river, grass and forest!

    3400 BC: River is even longer than anticipated...

    3350 BC: Discover Code of Laws: start Ceremonial Burial. River takes in a delta, with another one in view... would make some nice ICS for sure!

    3300 BC: One of the branches of the original 4 rivers (from the capital... the one going SW) is very lengthy and not stopping! Pop hut at (175, 47) Decide to pop even if it could hurt my research (already got my offpath tech for Mon)

    3250 BC: Pop hut: Nomads! Thank goodness the hut was on a hill.

    3150 BC: Settler in Madrid built. I originally typed Paris in my log... still have GOTM 118 in my system.

    3100 BC: Build Séville at (175, 31)

    3050 BC: TWO VIKING UNITS NEAR SÉVILLE. Crap. Madrid warrior discovers even more river...

    3000 BC: Viking Legion moves away, Viking Warrior moves near Séville. Hail Vikings: They ask for Cartography and Alphabet, given. Peace. Trade Code of Laws for Bronze Working. Madrid warrior spots hut at (173, 53) My power is Supreme. They need to die.

    2950 BC: Madrid Warrior. Nomad builds Tolède at (176, 40) Techrate 7 turns. Hut gives Chariot. Good. Maybe this will come in use against the Vikings.

    2900 BC: Spot hut at (179, 53)

    Interturn: Biggest civs Spanish 1st, Vikings 4th

    2850 BC: Pop hut: Nothing? Did not saw that for a while!

    2800 BC: Discover Code of Laws, start Currency. Spot 2 huts at (181, 47) and (167, 51)

    2750 BC: Pop hut: Monarchy! How lucky! Oedo year in 2 turns, revolution next turn. Pop hut: Currency!

    2700 BC: Start the research of Trade. Rush a Warrior in Séville and a Phalanx in Madrid.

    2450 BC: Hail Vikings: Trade Ceremonial Burial to the Vikings for Pottery. Give Monarchy and Currency.

    2350 BC: Pop hut at (170, 28) 50g.

    2300 BC: Find Trondheim at (180, 12)

    2150 BC: Tolède Settlers. Discover Trade, start Horseback Riding. My 3 cities all supply hides! Maybe...

    2100 BC: Vikings warn me to leave Kaupang. Ask for tribute: 50g. Build Cordoue at (172, 44) Spend 44g in Madrid for a Settler.

    2050 BC: Build Valence at (170, 28)

    1950 BC: Meet Cordial Romans. Trade Trade for Writing. Give Pottery, Currency, Code of Laws. Swap maps. Vikings refuse to pay tribute.

    1900 BC: Vikings refuse to pay tribute.

    1850 BC: Vikings refuse to pay tribute.

    Interturn: Vikings demand we leave the vicinity of Kaupang.

    1800 BC: Build Salamanque at (177, 25)

    1750 BC: Pop. exceeds 100.000 citizens. IDIOT, just realized I should have switched to Monarchy way sooner (20 turns sooner!!!) Forgot to do so! Oh well.

    Interturn: Vikings order us to leave Kaupang. I do.

    1700 BC: REVOLUTION. That should have happened 1000 years ago. That hurts. I ask for tribute to Vikings, they declare WAR! Chariot kills forted Warrior in Kaupang.

    1650 BC: Finally switch to Monarchy. I need to be more focused when I play. A great start ruined. Pop hut at (154, 38) Chariot kills non-forted Phalanx in Kaupang.
     
  14. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Jan 14, 2011
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    My thanks to Ali_Ardavan and Jokemaster for early game logs, and credit to the latter for acknowledging the error of the late switch to Monarchy whcih I can certainly relate to. Although I am rather “making up the numbers” here, I guess he may be pleased to learn my switch to Monarchy in fact came 8 turns later, in 1250. (Ali's switch was 16 turns before Jokemaster's.)

    Generally I had a very similar early game to Jokemaster, going in the same direction and meeting the Vikings with the founding of the second city and getting much the same results. I did slip a little in time by comparison, e.g. the sixth city was built a similar 8 turns behind – 1400BC vs 1800BC. (1850 for Ali_Ardavan.) I guess that if I want to go quicker I will find taking more risk is in order.

    Start – We know that Romans, Japanese and Vikings are keeping us company.

    3750 – Discover Alphabet --> Bronze Working. Orange is the Greeks.
    3500 – Rush the settlers, switch worker to more food.
    3450 – Discover Bronze Working --> Ceremonial Burial
    Build warrior next for exploration.
    3350 – Pop hut at (176, 30) – Discover Warrior Code.
    Not growing Madrid to pop 2 yet means Lt Blue revealed on top 5 cities – it's the Persians. I may get on with them.

    3200 – Seville built on coast at (174, 32).
    Viking horseman visible in city view, this seems a bit precipitate and it may not be good news.
    3150 – Alphabet and Warrior Code are given up to the Vikings. Need build phalanxes I think. Well I guess I may not but I don't know what happens if I don't defend my cities and I don't want to risk finding out in this particular game.

    3000 – Phalanx completes in Madrid.
    2950 – Discover Ceremonial Burial --> Code of Laws
    2850 – Message about how advanced – we are 3rd, Vikings 4th.

    2650 – Both cities building settlers, and Vikings are now hostile, incidentally.
    Land to east of Madrid seems just a small grass peninsula, so go off and look to south-west.
    2400 – Discover Code of Laws (discovery 5), Monarchy not offered so choose → Currency next.
    Toledo founded to SW of Madrid, again on coast, at (176, 42.)
    2200 – Another settler, for city number 4 all being well, comes from Seville.
    Discoveries every 10 turns with maximum science.
    2100 – Cordoba founded at (178, 30), overlaps Madrid but is a grassy coastal square and we need the next City now.
    2000 – Warrior explores down river SW from Toledo.

    1900 – Exploring warrior reveals Toledo is on a 1 square lake, not the ocean, my mistake.
    Discover Currency → Monarchy.
    1850 – Pop hut south of Toledo – Unit. Looks nice land – grass, rivers, coal, pheasant.
    1700 – Partial rush settlers in Toledo.
    1650 – Happiness report, we are 1st (probably =1st), Vikings are 5th.
    1600 – Another settler arrives.
    Top 5 cities shows we have the Mongols making up our game, splendid news.

    1500 – Exploring archer going north is approached by a Viking horseman; we decline his demand and they don't declare war. They have two sticks so are not so strong, but care seems needed. And a Roman chariot has appeared near Toledo. Despite this we risk building Valencia at (178, 44) very close to Toledo, but keeping growth going. Warrior pops hut at (187, 49) for nomads. Slow down research as will not get Monarchy next OEDO and need wait till 1250.
    1450 – Romans approach, we swap our Laws for their Iron, and give Ceremonial Burial. They seem happy and we have peace.
    1400 – Nomads settle in Salamanca at (188, 46). Effort going into getting Monarchy at right time.
    1350 – Archers pop hut at (170, 28) and get Legion (supported from Seville.)
    1250 – Yes, Monarchy arrives with good timing and we change government.
    Discover Monarchy → Trade.

    Inkerman Status at -1250 (end)
    Population: 9; Cities: 6; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 30; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 9; Production: 15; Arrows 27.
    Units: 2 Settlers, 4 Phalanx, 1 Warrior, 1 Archer, 1 Legion.

    5 Turns later Ali will have:

    Ali_Ardavan Status at -1000
    Population: 0.25M; Cities: 10; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 48; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 10; Production: 35; 0 polluted tiles
    Units: 4 settlers (1 None), 2 warriors, 2 Phalanx, 1 None Legion, 3 Horsemen (1 None), 1 Trireme, 1 Diplomat, 1 Caravan
     
  15. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    470
    What bugs me is that if I was focused enough, Monarchy would have been established at 2650 BC, instead of 1000 years later. That turned a great start in an /average/ one. While I know I was able to recover that mistake during the course of the game GOTM score wise (even if I made some more) it still bugs me, as a perfectionist, knowing that what happens at 2700 BC has a resounding influence in 1500 AD.

    @ Inkerman: On expanding: On King level, you have no need for militia early on so I only built exploring warriors and a Phalanx in my capital Madrid (but only build a Phalanx because of Vik legion nearby. Normally I would have left my capital undefended) I was hoping that the Vik legion would attack Madrid and fail due to river and palace (what happened in a recent D+3 succession game, that I did not participated in, may leave others think that there is a early game palace defensive boost)

    If you need a presence, warriors will do. Otherwise, best is to take out/contain your neighbour: did your Archer and Legion did so? In my game, my Chariot from a hut took out 2/3 Vik cities. They were never able to recover and they got killed before the AD years.


    Also, do you have Civ2 or Civ2 Multiplayer? The AI is skewed in hating you under multiplayer gold edition, so you can afford to take more risks with Classic Civ2 than with MGE.
     
  16. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,832
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    I have three suggestions for avoiding mistakes:

    1. Write things down. I always have a piece of paper on my desk for writing notes to myself. Any thing that I may forget ends up on this paper.

    2. Put future things in your log. This is a new idea that I still am not practicing as much as I should. Be careful that past and present do not get mixed.

    3. Save often for those oh-no seconds. If you hit return and end the turn a moment too soon go back to your last save as long as everything is repeatable. Typically everything other than battle outcomes are repeatable. Of course this is only practical if you discover your mistake shortly not after many turns. And in case you are wondering, no this is not considered cheating.
     
  17. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,832
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Summary: expansion, demanding tribute from rivals, foreign trade with Romans, a bit of domestic trade, and switch to democracy from monarchy in +380. Goal is still peaceful expansion, minimal warfare, and space race.

    +0020 Japanese, Greeks -> 25g. Salamis and Lisbon founded.
    +0040 8 barbarians from hut kill my warrior. Hides from Madrid to Romans for 240. Roman -> 0g.
    +0060 Hamburg founded. Mongol -> 50g, Persian -> 75g, Japanese -> 25g, Greek -> 50g, French -> 25g, Roman -> 0g.
    +0080 None Crusader from hut. Prague founded.
    +0100 Japanese build Lighthouse. Engineering -> Invention. Domestic Hides for 28, 148. Salzburg founded. Sanitation from hut. Sanitation, Seafaring -> Roman -> Banking. Japanese, Persian -> 25g, Greek -> 50g, Mongol -> 75g.
    +0120 Persian, Roman -> 50g.
    +0140 Roman, Japanese, Mongol -> 50g; Greek -> 100g
    +0160 Michelangelo built. Roman, Japanese -> 50g; Greek -> 100g
    +0180 Bergen and Venice founded. Japanese -> 50g
    +0200 Invention -> University. Milan founded. Roman, Japanese -> 50g. Advanced tribe founds Ghent on continent 4.
    +0220 Roman -> 25g. Greek, Mongol -> 50g. Japanese declare war over my demand for tribute. 50g from hut.
    +0240 Deliveries to Romans for 2x36. Pisa, Toronto, and Dublin founded. Roman -> 25g
    +0260 Shakespeare built in Madrid. Montreal and Sydney founded. Roman -> 25g.
    +0280 Barbarians kill my explorer. Ottawa founded. 50g from hut.
    +0300 Roman -> 50g. Shush founded.
    +0320 University -> Democracy. Deliveries to Romans for 63, 44. Legion from hut. NorthPole1 and Kish founded. None Crusader kills Japanese phalanx in Susa. Persian, French -> 50g.
    +0340 Domestic delivery for 38. Bologna founded. Another Japanese Phalanx defender of Susa killed. 50g from hut.
    +0360 Madrid Hides to Romans for 146. Crusader dies in its third attack on Susa. Greek -> 50g.
    +0380 Leo built. Democracy -> Chemistry. Instant revolution to Democracy. T3L3S4. Roman -> 0g, French -> 50g, Mongol -> Warrior Code. Advanced tribe founds Zabol. Vigo and Sartappe founded.
    +0400 10 cities celebrate.
    +0460 Shushtar, Melbourne, and Canberra founded.
    +0480 Chemistry -> Gunpowder. Darwin founded. Domestic delivery for 110.
    +0500 100g from hut. Zabol relocated.

    Status at +0500
    Population: 4.74M; Cities: 62; Trade routes: 9D8F; Government: Democracy
    Gold: 16; Cost per turn: 19; Total advances: 33; Production: 252; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Marco, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Leo
    Units: 44 settlers (1 None), 1 warriors, 3 Phalanx, 5 Legion, 1 Horsemen , 1 Crusader, 11 Trireme, 2 Diplomat, 22 Caravan, 2 Explorer
    Roman: 5 cities, 23 techs
    Japanese: 12 cities, 16 techs; Lighthouse; war with me;
    French: 3 cities, 17 techs
    Persian: 1 cities, 15 techs;
    Greek: 5 cities, 23 techs; war with Mongols
    Mongol: 4 cities, 30 techs; war with Greeks
     
  18. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    470
    22 caravans? Did those vans were for wonders or trade? Personally, I'm not sure if conducting trade with non-offshore AI civs is worth it for vans not from Madrid... With bonuses under 100g, I'm a bit curious on how you seem to make it work...

    Here is another part of my log. Up to 1 AD.

    1600 BC: Chariot sacks and razes Kaupang: 7 gold plundered. Pop hut: 50g.

    1550 BC: Hail Romans: No new tech for us. See the Viking city of Uppsala: They ask for cease-fire, refused. Then, my Chariot steps next to a Viking Warrior. Uh oh... Discover hut at (161, 23)

    Interturn: My Chariot survives the warrior attack and is vet.

    1500 BC: Discover HBR: Poly is next. Pop hut: Literacy. Discover hut at (185, 55) Hail Romans: Get 75g tribute.

    1450 BC: Séville settlers. Pop hut: Advanced tribe of Barcelone!

    1350 BC: Vet chariot kills Legion in Uppsala (stupid AI) Uppsala wiped out of the map. Supported Phalanx disappears.

    1250 BC: Build Valladoid at (178, 46)

    1200 BC: Build Saragosse at (174, 50) No new techs from the Romans. Build Cadix at (164, 28) Vet chariot attacks Trondheim, and is defeated!

    1150 BC: Salamanque settlers. Some cities switch to caravan production.

    1100 BC: Séville settlers, starts Temple. Madrid settlers, starts caravan. Build Bilbao at (170, 22) Pop hut: 7 barbs! I’ll give Barcelone a fighting chance: buy horsemen.

    1050 BC: Discover Poly, start Seafaring. Pop hut: Legion. Kill Barb horsemen near Barcelone. Rush another horsemen in Valladoid. Romans: 100g tribute.

    1000 BC: Pay 81g to save Barcelona from barbs. Valladoid horse kills a barb. Accept offer of 56g from Vikings for a cease-fire. Séville starts Marco’s.

    975 BC: Valence food van. Move Saragosse warrior in Valladoid for defence against the other barb, who killed my horse.

    950 BC: Barb horse kills Saragosse warrior and a citizen. City survives however. Kill that horse with Barcelone horse. Build Grenade at (181, 19)

    Interturn: Japs start Colossus.

    925 BC: Van in Séville: 144s left. Pop hut: 50g. Another barb horse near Barcelona? Horse will be ready next turn.

    Status at 925 BC:

    Population: 0.22M Cities: 12 Trade routes: 0D0F Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 68 Cost per turn: 1 Total advances: 13 Production: 38MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: None. Currently building Marco’s
    Units: 2 Settlers, 8 Warriors, 1 Phalanx, 1 Legion, 1 Horsemen, 1 Caravan.
    Romans: Peace, no embassy.
    Vikings: Cease-fire, no embassy.
    No contact with anyone else. Japs are building Colossus.


    900 BC: Tolède van. Pop hut: Masonry.

    875 BC: Trade Literacy to the Romans for Seafaring. Pop hut: Elephant. Vikings: No tribute.

    850 BC: Start researching Myscitism. Van in Séville: 88s left. Build Malaga at (167, 45)
    Interturn: Romans start HG.

    825 BC: Valence, Salamanque vans. Van in Séville: 36s left for Marco’s. Build Pampelune at (174, 18)

    800 BC: Marco’s in 7 turns. Pop hut: NONE Elephant. Vikings: No tribute. Romans: 100g.

    775 BC: Kill barb horsemen.

    750 BC: Discover Myscitism, start Phil. Vikings: No tribute. Build Vigo at (167, 51)

    700 BC: Build Avila at (167, 17) Romans: 50g.

    650 BC: Valence van.

    625 BC: Séville builds MPE, starts HG. Vikings: No tribute. Japs: Peace. Trade Map Making for WC, Seafaring for The Wheel. Persia: Peace. Give BW, Myscitism, swap maps. Get 300g tribute. Greeks: Peace. Swap Cartography for IW. Give Seafaring, swap maps. Get 250g tribute. Mongols: Peace. Give The Wheel, WC, IW,HBR, Myscitism, Seafaring. Swap maps. Get 150g tribute. Rush a trireme in Barcelone. 2 vans in Séville: 100s left for HG. Build Leon at (174, 56) Techrate 19 turns.

    600 BC: Cease-fire with Vikings ends. 50s in Séville: 45s left for HG (9 turns) Japs: Give IW, swap maps. And OHCRAP they are very out of range. Not to mention that they are on the same continent (as a matter of fact, all 7 civs are on the same continent) Not good AT ALL for trade. Build Burgos at (183, 49)

    Interturn: Japs get Pottery from a hut. They later switch from Col to HG.

    575 BC: Population exceeds 500k citizens. Declare war against Vikings: Elephant kills Phalanx unit. Build Oviedo at (189, 51)

    Interturn: Barbs way out of range of Avila. Greeks and Japs declare war.

    550 BC: Build Santander at (161, 23)

    Interturn: Japs almost done with HG.

    525 BC: Rush HG in Séville for 100g. Build Ciudad Rodrigo at (186, 12)

    500 BC: Séville builds HG, starts Pyramids. Romans switch to GL, Japs to Colossus. Van in Séville: 150s left.

    Interturn: Satsuma builds Colossus.

    475 BC: Madrid van. NONE Ele attacks Settler and is defeated? Rush an ele in Ciudad Rodrigo. Ele kills Phalanx outside of Trondheim. Van in Séville: 95s left.

    450 BC: Pop. exceeds 600k citizens. Barbs 2 squares from Santander: rush an ele. Van in Séville: 40s left (8 turns) for the Pyramids. Pop hut: Horsemen. Build Calatrava at (164, 40) Build Cartagène at (179, 53)

    400 BC: 2 Warriors get killed near Trondheim. Attack Trondheim with 2 Eles: They both die? The Phalanx must be a vet. Guess I’ll wait.

    375 BC: Kill Viking settler outside of Trondheim. Romans: 100g. Japs: 50g. Persia: 25g. Greece: 50g. Mongols: Give Poly, Monarchy and Currency. Get 50g tribute. Build Naples at (187, 45) Build Issos at (161, 49) Pop hut: Barbs. On the north pole, no biggie. Pop hut: 50g. Pop hut: Construction

    Interturn: Barbs disappear.

    350 BC: 2 vans. Phalanx near Trondheim. Kill that Pha with my vet Ele. Attack another Viking settler with a legion: the legion LOSES?!? Rush eles in Salamanque and Grenade. The 2 barbs did not attack.

    Interturn: Trade IW to the Romans for Republic.

    325 BC: Pop hut: Engineering. Grenade Ele kills wounded Viking settler and is vet. Pop hut: Banking. Japs: 50g.

    300 BC: 5 cities build settlers. Build Cunaxa at (159, 41) Romans: They remove their troops. Pop hut: Bridge Building. Pop hut: Feudalism... Give a tech to the Mongols.

    275 BC: Pop hut: Advanced tribe. (Cremona)

    250 BC: Séville builds Pyramids, starts Lighthouse. 3 vans in Séville: LH in 10 turns. Pop hut: 25g. Persia: 50g. Japs: 50g.

    200 BC: Discover Phil 1st. Get Mono as the free tech. Medicine is next. Switch Séville from Lighthouse to Mikes: food van in Séville (195s left) Vet elephant kills Phalanx in Trondheim. Another vet Ele kills another Phalanx. Trondheim stormed for 12g. A bit late, but VIKING CIV DESTROYED BY SPANISH. Looks like there is a respawn with the Germans. Build Cannae at (175, 11) Romans: No tribute. Build Capoue at (180, 60)

    175 BC: Build Turin at (167, 11) Pop hut: Barbs. There goes the explorer on landmass 4. Civil disorder in Salamanque.

    150 BC: Build Gênes at (169, 59) Build Crête at (178, 64)

    125 BC: 2 vans in Séville: 79s left for Mikes. Pop hut: Barbs. I kill one, the horse will die.

    Interturn: Horse dies to barbs.

    100 BC: Pop hut: NONE legion. Build Vérone at (155, 21) Hail Germans: peace, give Trade. They also are on continent 1... from bad to worse. Swap maps. Japs: 100g. Greeks: 150g. Mongols: 150g. Romans: 50g. Build Salamis at (168, 4)

    75 BC: Pop. exceeds 1mil. Persia: Nothing.

    25 BC: Van in Séville: Mikes will be built next turn. Romans: 50g. Build Lisbonne at (154, 46)

    Status at 1AD

    Population: 1.21M Cities: 35 Trade routes: 0D0F Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 764 Cost per turn: 3 Total advances: 27 Production: 121MT 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Pyramids, HG, Marco. Mikes next turn
    Units: 11 Settlers, 10 Warriors, 2 Phalanx, 1 Legion, 1 Pikemen, 2 Horsemen, 6 Elephants, 9 Triremes.
    Romans: 7 cities, 14 techs. Despo, peace, 63g. Currently building GL.
    Japanese: 7 cities, 14 techs. Despo, peace, 377g. They have Colossus.
    Germans: 1 city, 14 techs. Despo, peace, 0g.
    Vikings: Destroyed by me
    Persia: 2 cities, 10 techs. Despo, peace, 35g.
    Greeks: 7 cities, 11 techs. Despo, peace, 97g.
    Mongolia: 4 cities, 15 techs. Monarchy, peace, 28g.
     
  19. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,294
    Good advice, especially for learning the game - this helped me see the forest, as well as the trees. I make much fewer notes now, but probably also make more mistakes. For example, I also forgot to switch to monarchy in 2450BC, but fixed that in 2250BC.

    Hmmm. Is this written up in the rules thread ? I'd imagine that replaying after discovering enemy troop or city locations should not be allowed, for example.

    .....................................................

    I've played to 1AD. All is well towards EC, hoping for 500AD or so. Here are some stats. If anyone else is playing for EC and wants to compare in more detail, I can post a better log.

    2250BC: Install Monarchy (discovered 2600BC).
    1200BC: MPE nets about 4-5 techs, maps, 50g tribute (+more later).
    900BC: Pyr
    700BC: LH
    450BC: HG
    125BC: Col in Madrid, 1st dom/o'seas van pays 200g

    Stats: 1000BC: 13 cities, 4S, 2el, MPE, Mfg 41, 7.0.3 gives 39g/t. War w Rome. 12adv.

    1AD: Monarchy, 67 cities, pop 2.9mil, 29S, 8el, 18tri, 10v, 4exp, 21adv, no current wars, 5 WoWs, 7.3.0 gives 126g/t, cost =1g.

    Compared to my other games, this is a pretty fast growth rate, especially after 1000BC. I think that was mainly from the excellent terrain, but having all the AI on the same continent helped with tribute. My hut luck was about average with legion [my least favorite unit], legion, legion, adv-tribe, ele, barbs etc (with a fairly large number of barbs to follow, but also a few nice distant tribes). The Greeks destroyed the Mongols for me, and I've reduced the Romans to 2 cities. Not much real contact with the others yet besides tribute.
     
  20. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,681
    Location:
    Amersfoort (Netherlands)
    It's somewhere in the rules. I know I've read it but can't find it. It's more or less allowed when hitting enter by accident or moving an unit/ship accidently to wrong tile IIRC.
     

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