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Gotm 137

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Ali Ardavan, Aug 31, 2012.

  1. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Pentagon revisited

    For the Sep 2012 edition of GOTM we replay the June game: GOTM 135 with the condition of having to play OCC removed. Everything else is as before. You may use any strategy to win (OCC included).

    Clarification on "Everything else is as before"
    In GOTM 135 we made a special rule to allow replays from the start. I should have made it clear whether that is the special rule here or not but failed to do so originally. (Please see discussion below.) The special rule is now that you can reload till you get a desirable outcome for the one and only hut in the pentagon. No other reloading/restart is allowed. More specifically you may not restart to change battle outcomes or the hut outcomes of any other hut.

    This 100x100 round world consists of a southern continent and a northern continent hugging the poles and spanning around the world. The southern continent is very green and vacant. Northern continent has some dry spots and is home to Mongols. There is another small continent shaped like a pentagon right in the middle. The human player, playing the orange civ, is right in the middle of this continent. The remaining 5 rivals are on the 5 corners of the pentagon.

    The pentagon is large enough so that no two capital cities share a tile yet small enough that each capital's border touches that of some other capital.

    The challenge here is to win before Mongols do.

    Game Settings
    Game of the Month 137: September 2012

    Civilization: English
    Map: Custom Known map, 100x100, round;
    (Known map means you can open the original save in the map editor and refer back to it any time during the game)
    Rivals: Celts, Babylonians, Germans, Aztecs, Americans, Mongols
    Difficulty: Deity
    Barbarians: Restless tribes (+0)
    Restarts: On
    Victory: Conquest or Spaceship
    Starting Techs: None.
    Other info: Rivals start with one settler and no techs.

    Submit your game before November 1st, 2012.

    Please be sure to follow the submission guidelines when submitting your game (please do not send your files in a .zip file. Attach them directly to your e-mail with your name in the save file). No extra save is needed.

    Please sent the savegames only to civ2gotm@gmail.com.

    Have fun.

    Edit: I have just created the page. And added the savelink in this post.

    Starting save is here.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2017
  2. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Thanks for this. I don't think I'm giving too much away in saying I won't be trying for OCC!

    This is, of course, based on my experience with GotM 135. I suggest anyone who is trying this one, and didn't try #135, looks at the spoiler thread for #135 to get a feel for how the situation might develop.

    I don't intend to discourage.... "do come on in, the water's lovely" as one might say in England (e.g. to a holiday companion, after going in the sea and realising how cold it is.)
     
  3. haleewud

    haleewud Prince

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    I was a bit disappointed to see that this would be GOTM 137. I played 2 attempts at GOTM 135 in the OCC format (not very sucessfully). It got somewhat tedious by the end of the second attempt, with all the Mongol cheating. Now I get to play the same map a third time (with only 2 attempts at GOTM 136) in between. I was hoping for something new and different.

    I guess the non-OCC will be a bit better, but the first couple hundred turns are going to virtual OCC what with being locked on the little pentagon with 5 other CIVs.

    I am not sure if I am interested enough to play it again so soon.
     
  4. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Hi haleewud,

    Yes enough of OCC on this map!

    Here are some ways to not be playing OCC for first couple hundred turns:

    1. Pop hut, use military unit to remove a rival and create room.

    2. Build in spaces, maybe using unexploited ocean specials e.g.


    3. Build Lighthouse and sail off to a new world.

    regards,
    Inkerman
     
  5. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I second that.

    Not so. Inkerman, very cleverly, pointed out all the possibilties. I would like to add that an OCC mindset is different from the start.

    For example, in my OCC game I produced a warrior, a size 1 settler, and then Colossus. This time I plan on the same production schedule only up to the size 1 settler. I will not be building Colossus after a single settler. That is hardly turn 20 let alone 200. Similarly, in my research Mapmaking is going to be higher priority initially and Navigation a higher priority later on. Although I have not yet decided if I will go for the Lighthouse (or wait for Navigation) it is a decision that I will have to think hard and long on early in the game whereas in the OCC game it was a non-issue.
     
  6. mercurios

    mercurios Chieftain

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    I will go as fast as I can for Lighthouse.
    During OCC restarts were no problem.Here you have to erase 3 civs right in the beginning -
    or you play another OCC. Now where do restarts occur and who will it be ?
    Maybe there comes a time where
    is a little bit out of time.
     
  7. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    You are right mercurios that the moment a pentagon rival gets eliminated the challenge is no longer just to beat Mongols.

    I have not started yet, but I personally plan to keep my pentagon rivals alive as much as possible. Am I the only one following this strategy?
     
  8. haleewud

    haleewud Prince

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    I am probably going to try to keep the pentagon rivals alive as well.

    I played the OCC twice. In the first, all the pentagon rivals stayed alive until the Mongol onslaught started. During the second attempt, the Celts actually eliminated the Babylonians and Germans. Both civilizations restarted on the South continent. A lot of the South continent was occupied by the time I was able to look at it (which was much later due to OCC). Still I am worried that getting a little more room on the pentagon (by eliminating a rival), will mean a lot less space in the south when I am finally ready to move that way.
     
  9. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I have not figured out my whole strategy yet, but I know how I want to start: size 1 settler, alliance with all pentagon rivals (mainly for ease of movement and not having to worry about proper defense), and building on the four lower city sites (or maybe all 5 of them) pointed out by Inkerman.

    What I do afterwards, I will probably decide when I implement the above and see how things turn out. Major decisions are:
    1. Whether to build Lighthouse or wait for Navigation
    2. Whether to populate the Southern continent if there is no one there
    3. Whether to go for Space or Conquest

    Of course, the above decisions are interdependent and each affects others.
     
  10. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Thirty years before motorways came to Britain, a road numbering system was settled on that assigned the numbers A1 - A6 to the main radial routes from London.

    ( You don't want to know this but the A1, formerly the Great North Road, goes via York, to Berwick on the east coast at the Scottish border (and Edinburgh). The A2 goes to Dover the most significant Channel port. The A3 to Portsmouth, location of the main naval base. The A4 to Bristol a main Atlantic port, and South Wales. The A5 via the Industrial Midlands to Holyhead for boats to Ireland. And the A6 to Carlisle on the west coast near the Scottish border (and Glasgow.) )

    Perhaps because of that I can see a certain attraction in a trading and co-operation approach. Getting on with all our neighbours including alliances, making London a big trading hub at the centre of a web, and putting cities on the middle of each pentagon side, no doubt with roads to soon follow. Later we can look to have trade coming in from more cities in the new world on the southern continent.

    But I don't find it easy to be confident that is better (quicker?) compared to other possible approaches.

    For example if we see the path to success very much in a new world eventually coming to the rescue of the old, or we'd like to do a lot of hut-popping, then it might be as well to get Lighthouse and send a trireme off as soon as we can - not worrying too much about London longterm, so maybe a quick city or two close by and just one or two cities on the south coast, as gateways for emigration. Perhaps this is what mercurios will do - and who better incidentally to build lots of large, thriving cities in the new world?

    Or maybe, as the Pentagon is a sizeable land rich in resources, enough to sustain a winning civ on its own, and there is plenty of grassland to build on, an ICS approach packing cities in, might let us grow quite big quite quickly, and get tribute from the neigbours. If we were first to Polytheism (and it is only the Celts of our neighbours who will chase it compared to the more civilized tech advances) who knows what we might achieve? We could then make the big trading city in the south later, if we need one. Major Advantage preferred a different city site in his GotM 135, and was successful in quickly eliminating two of the neighbours as part of that plan.

    From GotM 135 we learnt that if local neighbours are eliminated they are very likely to re-spawn in the south, if not at first then after the Mongols have knocked them out again. I don't share haleewud's concern over this using up the space. It will have an effect on huts though, as the AI will take a lot of them - but it is a big continent and there will still be plenty of good city sites not taken. In my game Barbarians eliminated the Aztecs who re-spawned there, but even with them and the ones I deliberately sent there (in the hope they would balance the Mongols) there was plenty of room. (The risk of Barb landings make me a bit nervous about leaving coastal cities empty incidentally, but I know I shouldn't worry.)

    Going through the game, assuming we expect to take a tech lead eventually, because we are orange, development will come easier if we can keep our power rating ahead of everyone but one (i.e. the Mongols!) That is perhaps the main reason I think not to eliminate a neighbour too soon.

    One thing I think we will see if enough people have a go at this is big random things making a difference e.g. early Barb elimination of Aztecs, and how early and which Civs travel to the south. I have a feeling the Mongol path is not entirely predictable too. And what happens with that hut that is next to us may cause paths to diverge quite quickly.

    I think it rates to be the usual Civ2 immersive experience and quite enjoyable, especially with revenge a factor (see the GotM 135 spoiler.)
     
  11. Major Advantage

    Major Advantage Prince

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    I have started and played alreday into AD (two unsuccessful attempts on 135 and only played one turn on 136). I'm still not sure about the best initial strategy. In both my attempts on 135 I killed the germans first (before founding my city) and both times dark blue respawned on the northern continent. Don't know if that was deterministic or just coincidence but in theory, it would help to slow the mongols down.
    About LH to reach the southern continent, I wasn't sure about the strategy to build that LH: Let a city start to build a wonder early on or wait for trade and let other cities help with caravans?
    Furthermore, since the AI is cheating, they don't necessarily recquire LH to have unsinkable triremes...
     
  12. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Hello, old friends! I have been very busy the last few months, but would like to play at least one more gotm this year. Since I am so bad at OCC and the Modern Era, I will probably play this one instead of 135-136. Also, I am guessing this one should be shorter than 136 in RL time. The rules allow replay from the start, right ?

    At first glance, my instincts are to wipe out the island AI's asap, not worrying about respawns or the Mongols until later. If it seems I can build the Lighthouse before the island conquest, I will switch plans.
     
  13. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Glad to see you are back Peaster.

    Oops! I should have made that clear. My original intention is NO, the replay from start was an exception for GOTM 135 to give people a second chance. However I do not feel very strongly about this rule in general and I am open to suggestions. Civ2 games take so much time that few would have a chance to replay an advanced game. However, the first hut outcome could be changed dramatically by this rule.

    Those who have already played more than a few turns, please speak up. Has anyone done a replay from start yet?
     
  14. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    A partial rather than a full answer.

    After playing #135 (discussed in spoiler but not submitted) I made several experimental OCC plays from the starting position for varying distances into the game. So I think it would be good to at least allow "experiments" from the starting position providing a second city is not built or captured.

    In the same way that replay is only permitted right from the beginning, I am not suggesting that any such experimental play can be converted into a real game - if things go well try and do the same when it comes to the real (no regrets) playing.

    And I too am delighted to see Peaster back active and maybe playing this one.
     
  15. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Please submit even if you lose. The quality of the competition, both for the old timers and the new comers, depends on how many participate.

    I agree. Since the map is known, experimentation is fine. But, as you mentioned, once you start playing you may not go back for a different outcome.

    In the particular case of this game, about the only relevant thing is the outcome of the one and only hut on the Pentagon.
     
  16. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    I started last night, assuming that starting over was OK, as in 135. I popped the hut a few times until I got a decent result (a military unit. Its type may be "spoiler" info, but I will share it upon request, if that matters). After that, I did not start over, partly because the game went fairly well, and partly for reasons of time. I played to approx 1200BC. Should I continue the game and submit it, or stop ?

    Either way, I'll understand. It might be fair to say "start over again", for example, but I'd prefer not to do that, just for RL time reasons.
     
  17. Major Advantage

    Major Advantage Prince

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    Same here. Getting a stupid tech (Warrior code iirc) from the one and only hut for millenias seemed like a huge waste, so I started over again and got a unit.

    I wasn't sure if the special rule of #135 was still valid, but in this case (just one hut) there might be a huge difference between a good and a bad outcome.
     
  18. Inkerman

    Inkerman Engineer Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Given GotM 135, and with time now invested, my vote is in favour of a ruling that allows continuation.
     
  19. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    So am I. Do we have anyone who got a bad outcome on the hut and stuck with it?
     
  20. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    So far we have not heard of anyone who got a bad hut outcome and stuck with it. But not much time has passed since this discussion and there is no telling how much time would be sufficient. I wish I could poll everyone, but that is just not possible.

    So, the rule is you may restart your game to change the hut outcome for the one and only hut in the pentagon. This does not apply to huts anywhere else.
     

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