GOTM 176 Spoiler

[CharlieChuck]

Started playing this and something very odd has happened in the year 3000bc while I was attacking a barb city. I'm not sure if something has gone wrong with my game files or not?

I started a spoiler thread in case it is part of the game but I suspect it isn't. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced an incredibly good outcome after razing a barb city?

 

[Jokemaster]

"Razing?" What do you mean? Razing a barb city isn't a good outcome out of its own. Could you spoiler tag your happenstance in the reply?

 

[CharlieChuck]

For razing I meant eliminating a size 1 city during attack.

Spoiler :

The city was Vyatka - and I received 93,018 gold for plundering it. As I said in earlier post, is this there something wrong with my version or is this normal. I haven't played any further on. I took a screenshot, so can upload if you want to see it.

 

[Major Advantage]

Unfortunately, i did not raze that city, I destroyed it (Killed a defender at size 1).
Later on when I razed/conquered barb cities, there was nothing special about the gold I received (27/20/16/21...) However, bribing barb cities would have been extremely expensive (way more than I had).
However, there were some weird things concerning the barbs:
1. They have not attacked my units so far. I could park my units right outside their cities to strike next turn. They also have left a persian caravan alive that came all the way from the south and allowed contact with them.
2. When I tried to attack the barb city of Warsaw, I got the message that the mongols (my allies) have helped to repair my units?!
3. When I tried to attack the barb city of Zwickau, I was asked if I want to declare war on the barbs.
I have not played much further, so maybe the barbs will start attacking now.

 

[Major Advantage]

I just replayed the first few turns (I did not receive any information I did not have in my real game), now going for razing Vyatka. I took some tries, you need the right hut outcomes and protect the city from the Mongols. When I finally got it down, there was a reward of 137g, so nothing special. CC, when did you raze the city?

 

[Jokemaster]

They have not attacked my units so far. I could park my units right outside their cities to strike next turn. They also have left a persian caravan alive that came all the way from the south and allowed contact with them.

Same thing here: it appears to be quote-unquote "intended" behaviour.

I also razed Vyatka in 3000 BC, although not intentionnally (didn't clue in immediately that I needed 2 units to capture the city before it was too late, the AI would keep rushing defensive units and the citizens would keep dying. Only realized it on my 2nd city). The log does not mention a gold gain from razing the city. (AIPatched MGE)

Edit: Just reloaded the original save. It appears the Barbs have 100g at the beginning of the game. But I got a lot more than 100g from plundering Barb cities. My only guess for Major is that the Barbs had 137g from city taxes when you razed Vyatka, and somehow you got all of it. No explanation for Charlie. I think you might want to replay your turns at the best of your ability. (Or alternatively, save it for some giggles after sending in another file and see how much you can get ahead of us with 93018 30000 free gold.)

 

[CharlieChuck]

Same thing here: it appears to be quote-unquote "intended" behaviour.

I also razed Vyatka in 3000 BC, although not intentionnally (didn't clue in immediately that I needed 2 units to capture the city before it was too late, the AI would keep rushing defensive units and the citizens would keep dying. Only realized it on my 2nd city). The log does not mention a gold gain from razing the city. (AIPatched MGE)

Edit: Just reloaded the original save. It appears the Barbs have 100g at the beginning of the game. But I got a lot more than 100g from plundering Barb cities. My only guess for Major is that the Barbs had 137g from city taxes when you razed Vyatka, and somehow you got all of it. No explanation for Charlie. I think you might want to replay your turns at the best of your ability. (Or alternatively, save it for some giggles after sending in another file and see how much you can get ahead of us with 93018 30000 free gold.)

I'll try it again from the start and see if it does something similar. But I think I will reinstall (and re-convert to MGE and repatch etc) before playing any other games.

 

[CharlieChuck]

I tried again, did roughly the same as before (3200bc this time) and got 105,548 gold. I'll reinstall as something's obviously wrong.

 

[Major Advantage]

So, aside from some weird stuff happening in this game (I think I forgot to mention swimmings barb warriors and the fact that barb cities are extremely expensive to bribe), this turned out to be a really fun game. First part of my log:

pre-game: After 3 landings in a row, it is time for conquest. We would need Mono, Sun Tzu, then Demo for SoL and Fundy. The special-city could be receiving vans for power-fundy. Keep the mongols until we have their map.

-4000 pop hut: Horse! That's awesome!
-3950 Move next to Karakorum again, but not contacted??? 50g from eastern hut, horse moves towards barb warrior
-3900 Moskau founded
-3850 Research Alphabet
-3800 Barb warrior killed, horse is vet
-3700 Advanced tribe from northern hut. So much for size-1-settler...
-3650 Horse stumbles into barb city of Vyatka, move away since only 2/3 left; Moskau builds horse; Warrior approaches Karakorum again, not contacted, open F3 and there they are get mm and burial, peace, gift tech, no maps
-3600 Kill horse in Vyatka, cannot raze
-3550 Kill another horse there, city destroyed; Krakow discovered
-3500 Moskau horse dies attacking Krakow, phalanx there
-3400 Warrior discovers Vilnius, maybe we shouldn't run around blindly
-3200 Discover Orenburg on river, rather not attack
-3150 Discover Kungur; Archer from hut, horse turns vet killing barb warrior, Voronezh discovered
-3100 Attack Kungur, horse killed, city razed for 27g; kill warrior in Voronezh; Pskov discovered
-3050 Discover Persian caravan that is blocking our movement
-3000 Alph->Writing; Persian caravan out of reach, discover Arkangel
-2950 Settler built, finally! Chariot from hut near Pskov; Podolsk discovered, is this where Lukas is from?
-2900 St. Petersburg builds temple, sells temple! Should have built a settler to disband the city instead...; Meet persian caravan, get Trade and BW from them, exchange maps
-2800 Chariot kills warrior in Pskov, warrior takes the city for 20g;
-2700 St. Petersburg disbanded into settler; Kiev founded
-2650 Capture Podolsk (16g)
(Mongols offer 50g for alliance and war with Persians, we say yes)
-2600 Mongols are still only neutral, won't get them to worshipful for map exchange
-2550 We are supreme, so gift all techs to Mongols, making them cordial and we get their map.
-2500 Minsk founded
-2450 Vilnius captured (21g)
-2400 Attack on Krakow fails, phalanx-defendet
-2200 Try to attack Warsaw and Mongols have helped to repair??? Akindofmagic founded, someone else is working spice already...
-2150 Writing->Laws;
-2000 Orenburg would be 700g...a little too expensive, not sure if bribing will be an option

Stats at 2000BC:
pop.: 180k; Cities: 7 (3 former barb); techs: 10; gold: 72; Gov.: Desp; wonders: -; TR: 0D/0F
units: 1 settler, 3 warrior, 1 Archer, 2 horse, 1 chariot, 2 dips
Goals: Get to Monotheism somehow... BTW, why are there barb warriors sleeping on ocean tiles???

 

[Jokemaster]

No clue. I assume it was how things were set up using the scenario marker.

My game was somewhat slow at the beginning: average hut luck. Only later on did I find out that I had much stronger luck than I thought I did initially... too late.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I started playing last night. I had to make two decisions at the start: the Mongols and the hut. I decided to let both be.

Based on what I read from the description somehow I got the idea that the barbarian cities would be farther away than they were. Several barbarians and one Mongol horseman had close encounters with me. The barbarians usually were on a random walk. The Mongol went right by undefended Moscow but decided to spare it.

Like others I have captured some barbarian cities and razed one. I got small amounts of gold in the single and double digits. The phenomenon experienced by Charlie Chuck seems to be unique.

I did map analysis and went after many huts not initially visible only to be disappointed repeatedly. They were almost all either on a lake or already taken by barbarians.

The one (quite minor) strange thing I noticed though is that so far I have discovered two mountains which should have been special but are not.

At -2000 I have more captured barbarian cities (6) than Russian cities (5) even though I got my second Russian city from an advanced tribe.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Strategy Notes
Must decide whether to conquer Mongols or not. I think it is beneficial to keep them regardless of winning strategy.
Must decide whether to take the hut with the settler or not. I opt for not since I do not think it is worth a 2 turn delay.
Space ship and conquest both would work fine.

Date Notes

-4000 Moscow founded. Working peat for a warrior.
-3950 -> Alphabet. Chemistry -> Mongol -> Mapmaking. Barbarian warrior approaching Moscow
-3850 Warrior produced. Chariot from hut next to Moscow kills barbarian warrior. Warrior disbanded to avoid support cost.
-3800 Horseman from hut.
-3750 Horseman disbanded.
-3650 Advanced tribe founds St. Petersburg at 90, 32. Have to scarp size 1 settler plan.
-3600 Chariot survives barbarian warrior and turns vet. Barbarian Orenburg discovered and one of its defenders killed.
-3550 Chariot backs up to heal. Barbarian Vyatka discovered. I thought there would not be any barbarian cities between me and Mongols.
-3450 Mongol horseman passes by undefended Moscow. Mongols agree to peace but no alliance.
-3350 Barbarian warrior near Moscow.
-3250 Alphabet -> Code of Laws. None Archer from hut.
-3150 Settler survives barbarian warrior and founds Kiev.
-3100 Barbarian Voronezh discovered.
-3050 Barbarian Krakow discovered.
-3000 Barbarian Vilnius discovered. Barbarian phalanx defending Krakow killed and archer turned vet.

Status at -3000
Population: 0.03M; Cities: 3; Techs: 5; Government: Despotism
Gold: 21; Cost: 0; Trade routes: 0D0F;
Wonders:
Units: 1 settlers, 1 None warrior, 1 None Archer, 1 Horseman, 1 Chariot
Goals: Conquest of barbarian cities, building a science city at 82,18, containing Mongols, Monarchy, Trade
Notes: My power is already supreme
Babylonian: no contact
French: no contact
Spanish: no contact
Persian: no contact; Marco
English: no contact
Mongol: no embassy
Barbarian: 5 cities discovered.

-2950 Another barbarian defender of Krakow killed. It is size one and still defended.
-2850 Minsk founded.
-2800 Horseman kills single defender of Vilnius and turns vet. Next horseman takes the city for 28g.
-2750 Persian caravan shows up near St. Pete. Mapmaking, Mysticism -> Persian (6) -> Trade, Bronze, peace, maps. Krakow razed.
-2650 Pskov discovered and its warrior killed. Lvov discovered.
-2600 Pskov captured for 20g. Horseman lost in attack on Lvov.
-2550 Single defender of Orenburg killed.
-2500 Code of Laws -> Ceremonial Burial. Archer from hut. Orengburg captured for 19g
-2450 Phalanx defending Kamyshin killed.
-2400 Kamyshin captured for 16g.
-2350 Vet horseman lost on Lvov. Archer defending Baku killed by valiant vet chariot and the city taken for 15g.
-2300 Science city of Smolensk founded at 82, 18.
-2150 Ceremonial Burial -> Writing.
-2100 Horseman defending Vyatka killed and the city taken for 7g. Mongol (0) -> 50g.
-2050 Lost my vet chariot in attack on Poltava. The empire declares a day of mourning.

Status at -2000
Population: 0.31M; Cities: 11; Techs: 9; Government: Despotism
Gold: 104; Cost: 0; Trade routes: 0D0F;
Wonders:
Units: 2 settlers, 7 warriors (1 None), 2 Archers (1 None), 3 Horseman, 1 Trireme, 1 van
Goals: Conquest and bribing of more barbarian cities, containing Mongols, Monarchy, Colossus and Hanging Gardens
Babylonian: no contact
French: no contact
Spanish: no contact
Persian: no embassy; 2 visible cities, Marco
English: no contact
Mongol: no embassy; 2 visisble cities
Barbarian: 4 visible cities in the south and 3 visible cities in west.

 

[Jokemaster]

That is some really fast expansion Ali (11 cities, 8 for me, 7 for Major). Curious to see where you bring it from there. How many horsemen did you build from cities? Good hut luck nonetheless. Phalanxes don't seem to be that annoying yet.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I played twice from my -3250 save and razed Vyatka before -3000 for merely 26g.

Jokemaster,
I only got 1 horseman from a hut and had to disband it because I only had one city and a supported chariot at the time. Looking at my stats in -2000 I have lost 2 horsemen and have 3. So I made a total of 5. I owe much of the success in this period to my (now martyred) vet chariot from the first hut. It and its sidekick vet archer captured 3 southern barbarian cities. (My many horsemen captured 3 northern babarian cities.)

 

[Jokemaster]

Early horsemen? That's hella bold, they have low ATK power for cities. I'm assuming you sent them in tag teams of 2, maybe 3. My initial success was also based on vets from goody huts. Although my ARcher probably was cursed from the start. Anyways, on with my 1st part of the log.

CONTEXT: Make sure to read it!

GOTM176: Early military activity. Going to try something fancy. But need to doublecheck something first… no reply, so please forgive my lack of ethics.
EC is the intended playstyle.
Hum… first thing didn’t work…

OKAY. Apparently conquering Karakorum doesn’t even give you the city. Okay, this changes everything. I was wondering if conquering without building a city first would give me a Palace in the newly conquered “first city”, but nope. But they even had walls! Even Cheat Mode tells me the city has walls… that’s really weird.
But what if I build first… nope, doesn’t even make a difference! OK, so killing the Mongols is CLEARLY not worth it. And since I have knowledge of the map, I now have no choice but to trade with the Mongols. Oh well, curiosity is sated. Already my plan is thrown into the water.

ANYWAYS, here’s with the actual game. Fortunately my first actual legitimate try at the whole contact-trade-maps-then-conquering-thing-on-the-next-turn (ZOC) didn’t work out as intended, so the end result (Mongol peace, maps) is the same. Will play one last time, following the first try's results. Plan kinda went by the window. Going to try this ICS thing again…

4000 AD: Move settler to hut: Masonry. Dangit. Decide to not conquer Mongols and make peace.

3850 AD: Oddly enough the Barb warrior is not moving towards the newly built Moscow. Maps traded, peace, etc, with the Mongols. Waited 1 turn til settling as I wanted to see if the warrior would move, but apparently its behaviour is preset.

3750 AD: Going for size-1.

3700 AD: Spot barb city of Vyarka. 5 turns til size-1.

3350 AD: Moscow size-1. Not going to size-1 again, I value the early huts more. Hut: Warrior Code. (Now that's... not optimal when you look at Ali's.)

3250 AD: Barb warrior attacks mine, is defeated but no vet. Hut: Archers. Good, maybe I can take out the eastern Barb cities that way.

3150 AD: St. Petersbourg built.

3100 AD: Kill defending… Horseman in Vyatka? Uhh… they could have attacked… vet status. Regrows to size2 afterwards.

3050 AD: Kill another horseman.

3000 AD: Kill another horseman… daheck? They keep respawning after the city empties itself. The city is destroyed… is this intentional?

2950 BC: Meet Persian van SE. Nice, they’re the ones who have Marco’s! Trade 2 techs for Trade and Burial. Noice!

2800 AD: Shields rushed in Rome, twice now.

2700 AD: Moscow size 2. Maybe I need 2 units at a time to attack a city…

2650 AD: SURVEY SAYS… CORRECT! Kill defending Archer. Conquer Kungur, size 2+26g.

2600 AD: Moscow settlers.

2400 AD: Mongols: no techs to trade. Kiev built. Barb city of Podolsk spotted.

2300 BC: St Pete’s settlers.

2250 BC: Alphabet > CoL not available… > Polytheism. Kill warrior in Podolsk: 12g+1citizen.

2200 BC: Minsk built.

2150 BC: Low hp Mongol horseman near Barb city of Orenburg…

2050 BC: Kill defending Barb warrior in Orenburg: Orenburg taken for 16+2 citizens. My vet Archer almost got 1shot by a forted warrior in a river…

2000 BC: Smolensk built. Now we’re going somewhere.

STATUS AT 2000 AD: (Beginning of 41th turn)
Population: 170.000 Cities: 8 Government: Despotism Total advances: 9 (researching Polytheism)
Gold: 49 T4L0S6 Income/Cost per turn: 8 income, 0 cost. Production: 22MT 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:. NONE
Foreign relations: Peace w/Persians and Mongols.
Units: 5 Warriors, 1 Archer.

Overall, behind on Ali's pace since he had better huts. But still, built one or two much settlers. I still wonder how useful Ali's horsemen were in the end.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

... I'm assuming you sent them in tag teams of 2, maybe 3.

You are right. My horsemen mostly worked in teams of two. My first conquest was of Vilnius with 2 horsemen. Second one of Pskov involved just one horseman but I was lucky the city did not create another defender like many others did. Third one of Vyatka involved 3 units (I also brought in a warrior).

My other team was the vet Crusader and the vet Archer but the vet crusader did almost all the work.

I should also mention that for every single conquest I checked the underlying terrain and the two cities I have found so far on hills have been deliberately left alone.

OKAY. Apparently conquering Karakorum doesn’t even give you the city. Okay, this changes everything. I was wondering if conquering without building a city first would give me a Palace in the newly conquered “first city”, but nope. But they even had walls! Even Cheat Mode tells me the city has walls…

I had no idea how this would work either and like you did some experiments.

3850 AD: ... Maps traded, peace, etc, with the Mongols

Wow, I exchanged Chemistry for mapmaking with my Mongols but their attitude was not positive enough for map exchange. I still have not managed that.

4000 AD: Move settler to hut: Masonry. Dangit. ...
3350 AD: ... I value the early huts more. Hut: Warrior Code. (Now that's... not optimal when you look at Ali's.)

That is a big understatement. This is terrible hut luck. Mine was good but Major's was not much different than mine.

2000 BC: Smolensk built.

You have as many Russian cities as Major and I despite the fact that we got one from an advanced tribe. That is pretty good.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I should add that in nearly 20 years of playing Civ2 this is the first time I have gone on a conquest with horsemen. Thank you Inkerman for a different Civ2 experience.

 

[Jokemaster]

Remind me very quickly: Are Barb units programmed to have a defense power of 1? Maybe I should have taken that into account.

I should also mention that for every single conquest I checked the underlying terrain and the two cities I have found so far on hills have been deliberately left alone.

Probably my big messup as well, lost a few too many units because of that.

You have as many Russian cities as Major and I despite the fact that we got one from an advanced tribe. That is pretty good.

Yes, but at what cost... lagged behind in military units+van deliveries. a few too many I think honestly.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Remind me very quickly: Are Barb units programmed to have a defense power of 1? Maybe I should have taken that into account.

I do not think so. Furthermore, I think they can turn vet with experience like other units. In this game I have clearly seen the difference between warrior defenders and defense-factor=2 defenders.

Yes, but at what cost... lagged behind in military units+van deliveries. a few too many I think honestly.

I was trying to say that you are doing pretty well considering your awful hut luck. Early one, a unit and an advanced tribe each make a big difference; Major and I got both, you got neither.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

-1950 Persian (5) -> 150g.
-1900 Odessa founded. Mongol -> 50g
-1850 Writing -> Monarchy. Kungur and Ab^ discovered.
-1800 Horseman kills archer defending Kungur and turns vet. Next horseman takes the city for 11g.
-1750 Kishinev discovered. Horseman kills barbarian warrior and turns vet.
-1700 Mysticism, Trade, Alphabet -> Mongol -> no maps, no alliance, and no change in my tech cost! (How is that possible?) Horseman kills warrior defending Memel and turns vet. Next horseman captures the city for 11g.
-1650 Black clicking is useless here. I have land mass 1 and 2 attached at 64,4 and 66,4. Mongol (1) -> 0g. Persian (4) -> 100g.
-1600 Monarchy -> Polytheism. Lvov wants 485 to revolt; way too much even if I could afford it. With that much money I can rush about 10 horsemen. Visby discovered.
-1550 Poltava, where I lost my valiant chariot, is attacked with 4 horsemen and a vet archer. I am asked if I want to declare war on barbarians?! Lost all 4 horsemen before the archer kills one Phalanx! And the city is still defended. Podolosk discovered. Mongol -> 0g
-1500 Malmo discovered. Revolution started.
-1450 Monarchy established. Mongol -> 0g.
-1400 Colossus built. Mongols declare war over my demand for tribute. Lost a horseman on Samarkand. It has a Phalanx on river; horsemen are not going to be sufficient. There is a barbarian warrior on ocean at 41,5! This game is full of surprises. Kristiansand discovered. An army of 4 horsemen attack Podolosk. First one kills its warrior and turns vet; second one captures the city for 4g. Persian -> 50g. T7L0S3
-1350 Varna discovered.
-1300 Mongol horseman killed. Mongol Samarkand bribed for 200g. Got 42g, Phalanx, and warrior. Accepted Mongol offer of 50g for cease fire. T3L0S7. Vet horseman kills archer defending Kovno; Next horseman kills a warrior defender and turns vet; the city is still defended. Mecklenberg founded.
-1250 Polytheism -> Literacy. Brunn discovered.
-1200 Karlsburg discovered.
-1150 Bokhara discovered.
-1100 Literacy -> Philosophy. Glatz, Stralsund, and Debrecen discovered. Vet horseman kills legion defending Stralsund and the next horseman captures the city for 8g.
-1050 Army of 5 attack Poltava (where I have had more than half of my total casualties). Lost an elephant on its Phalanx before the next elephant barely finishes it off and a horseman taking the city for 4g. Elephant kills barbarian warrior and occupies fort. 3 vet horsemen attack Kovno which turns out to have a single warrior defender left. The city is captured for 6g. Warsaw, Prague, and Berlin discovered. Lost an elephant and a vet horseman on Phalanx defending Brunn.
-1000 Elephant and vet horseman kills legion and archer defending Warsaw; the attempt to capture the city is met with a warning about cease fire with Mongols even though the city is barbarian. The city is captured for 3g. Arkangel discovered. Mongol -> 0g. Persian -> 50g. Mongol embassy established. They have 2 cities.

Status at -1000
Population: 1.1M; Cities: 20; Techs: 13; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 61; Cost: 0; Trade routes: 0D0F;
Wonders: Colossus
Units: 4 settlers, 16 warriors (1 None), 2 Phalanx, 2 Archers (1 None), 9 horsemen, 3 elephants, 1 Trireme, 1 diplomat, 3 vans
Goals: Finding other rivals, conquest of more barbarian cities, containing Mongols (bribing Bokhara?), Philosophy (2 turns), Hanging Gardens
Notes: 6 Russian cities, 1 former Mongol city, 13 former barbarian cities.
Babylonian: no contact
French: no contact
Spanish: no contact
Persian: no embassy; 2 visible cities; Marco; war with Mongols
English: no contact
Mongol: 2 cities, 9 techs; war with Persians
Barbarian: 10 visible cities in the south, 1 in the north, and 7 in the west and northwest.