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[PTW] GOTM 181 Aztecs Regent -- Discussion and Spoilers

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by Più Freddo, Dec 23, 2020.

  1. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    GOTM 181 Aztecs

    gotm_181_illu.jpg
     
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  2. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    In this game, you will rule over the Aztecs, who are Religious and Militaristic and start the game with the knowledge of Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code. This is a Regent-level game. The Aztec Unique Unit is the Jaguar Warrior, a fast-moving Warrior.

    In this game, the mountains of the Andes have grown so high and jagged as to be completely impassable for all units except perhaps airplanes.

    This game was created by Captain Jack.

    Starting Position

    GOTM_181.jpg

    Scope of the Game

    Normal Map
    Continents
    Docile Barbarians

    The game is released on January 1, 2021.
    Submissions are due by March 31, 2021.

    PLEASE NOTE THE DATE!

    Game Release Page

    Game release page

    Spoiler Limit

    Industrial Times or Game Submitted

    Spoilers are allowed covering the game up until reaching Industrial Time or having submitted the game. The results of getting and trading bonus technologies at this stage are a permissible topic as well.

    No spoiler information from after fulfilling the spoiler requirement is allowed!

    (This limit will be changed as the game progresses.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
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  3. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Pre-Game Discussion

    No spoiler information from after opening the game save file is allowed!
     
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  4. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    I didn't want to play the one-man orchestra here, but since the game starts in just one day, here are my thoughts about this game:

    I would consider moving the Settler 1E in order to make place for a second ring of cities inside the coastline. I would also benefit from the Goody Hut that way. The apparent disadvantage is moving into the Jungle. We are low on food and need masses of Workers. I guess I will use the Bonus Grassland to churn out Jaguar Warriors and see what they can bring me.
     
  5. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

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    Settler 1E sounds like a sensible thing to do. Since this is Regent, I suspect this being low food starting location with only a civ or two on the same continent.
     
  6. milr

    milr Warlord

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    I am looking at a D3 ring around a Capitol at 2SE, if NNE is land not water, else Capitol at SSE. To reach that configuration, I am considering a temporary Capitol in place, 2nd city at 2SE (or SSE), third city at 1W as original Capitol is destroyed. I would first build JWs and workers to explore continent and to improve land. Once that was accomplished, the new cities would be built, and one or more workers would join those cities to work the developed land.
     
  7. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    1E is an interesting idea. I was first thinking 1W and use the fish and whale for a 4-turner, but this will be quite late: Rep and Map Making are required to get the food, and by that time one could as well use the irrigated grasslands. So it's not necessary to put the capital by the fish, a later town will be early enough (though it needs a culture building in addition to harbor and granary)?!

    I have used the "temporary capital" approach only once, and in that case it was because the capitol got founded in a poor area and the scouting warrior then later found a food-rich spot not too far away. So I walked the first settler to that good spot (that was like 8-10 tiles away, iirc) and then disbanded the capital. In this position I think it may not pay off. The map doesn't look like cows or wheat can be expected close by, and then you simply cannot afford disbanding an important early town in such a low-food area.

    What might be good later-on, however, is a palace-jump into a really good core (captured from a neighbor...). But it is much too early to say, whether such a chance will present itself or not.
     
  8. BaTTleBOtfan54

    BaTTleBOtfan54 Chieftain

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    Do I need to sign up to play?
     
  9. Nata

    Nata Warlord

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    Can't resist 20K game at Regent level, so will move 1W to the coast site.
    The land wraps around the sea, so RCP4 should work.
     
  10. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Nope. Just download the save, play it according to the rules, and submit it. Have fun!

    Like Nata, I'm thinking about moving west and doing 20k in the capital. I like having the coastal wonders available more than I like the extra land tiles if I move eastish. Maybe I'll try some variant of always at war (NOT always war, though) in hopes of getting a GL sometime before 1500 AD.
     
  11. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Forbidden Palace Available or Size 12

    Spoilers are allowed covering the game up until being allowed to build the Forbidden Palace or reaching the size 12, in one of your cities, whichever occurs earlier.

    No spoiler information from after fulfilling the spoiler requirement is allowed!
     
  12. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Middle Ages

    Spoilers are allowed covering the game up until reaching the Middle Ages. The results of getting and trading bonus technologies at this stage are a permissible topic as well.

    No spoiler information from after fulfilling the spoiler requirement is allowed!
     
  13. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    I decided to play this one as an Always War game, to take advantage of the cheap Jags in PTW.

    I settled 1W, nestled among the hills. Used the worker to road in place, then mine. Settled Teotihuacan 4NE + 1SE, in the bay. About that time, I discovered the Zulu to the north, and that's when I committed to Always War.

    It went well early on. The Zulu lost three Warriors quickly, then an Archer. I was clearly costing them more shields than they were costing me. Even when the eventual Archer took out a Jag, another Jag would quickly defeat the Archer, giving me a 2:1 shield advantage.

    The only downside was a 2670 BC Golden Age.

    This kind of quasi-war continued for about 1500 years, before I took Zimbabwe in 1100 BC. The Zulu never had built a 3rd city.

    Zululand was conquered with the destruction of Ulundi in 950 BC. :clap:

    That was about the time the English were breaking through the mountains to the south. I'd considered building a settlement to block the pass, but instead built it in the hills 2SW of the choke point, planning to build another city 3SE of the choke point. The English just bypassed the easily-defensible Tlaxcala, preferring jungle warfare. By this time I had 12 Jaguar Warriors, 10 of them in the north, and 3 Spearmen. I had researched Ironworking and The Wheel to locate resources, but had intentionally not connected the Iron next to my capital.

    By 875 BC, the main English offensive had been dealt with, with 2 Archers falling to a Spearman and the other to a Jaguar Warrior. English units continued to trickle in, but whatever danger there had been was effectively dissipated. By this point I'd also met the Greeks and Russians, but with the chokepoints I was not in any great danger from them.

    The first Russian attacks come in 750 BC. They throw themselves uselessly against the walls of Tlaxcala and the jungle chokepoint.

    Spot a Russian Galley near Tenochtitlan in 610 BC. This is inconvenient; I have no navy and have lightly defended the homeland, though there are a few military police troops. My troops are still slogging through the jungle towards the English at this point. I don't want to attack the Greeks with Jags until my Cats can make it through the jungle, and it is taking a long time to road it.

    Russia plants Tblisi between me and the English in 590. It will likely be the first city to be razed.

    A scouting Aztec Spearman pillages Athens' fur supply in 570. I have no idea if they have any other sources, but part of my plan is definitely to disrupt productivity, and this will help.

    But just as I approach Tblisi in 550, disastrous news arrives from the home from:

    upload_2021-2-11_1-22-10.png

    I guess I should have switched that Settler to a Spearman or Archer when the Galley showed up. Silly me, thinking it was probably a Settler galley instead of an Archer galley :(. Oh well. We will take it back, and Russia will pay for their diabolical seafaring ways.
     
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  14. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    Tblisi is razed in 550 BC, and Tenochtitlan is recaptured with a Spearman offensive in 530 BC :spear:.

    Over the next century, a Jag and a Spear move east, scouting Greek land, defeating a Swordsman near Thermopylae. This diverts an absurd amount of Greek and Russia troops, while other Jags pillage English lands and I generally increase my numbers there. But the Jag eventually spots a blue border (China? America?), and I turn it back lest it makes another contact. The Spear hits a chokepoint, and similarly sacrifices itself for the greater good. I do not find Greece's source of Iron, but do learn enough to suspect it is in the southern part of its territory.

    In 410 BC, a Jaguar victory produces my first Great Leader - deep in the heart of English territory.

    Leader in Enemy Territory.png

    This is probably the deepest in enemy territory that I've ever generated a leader. I send him 2 NE, 1 N, to hide in the best spot possible. I'd already been leaning towards taking York first, to have a city to start building from in the area, and this only reinforces that thinking.

    Before that can happen, an Elite Jaguar coming south encounters a Russian Sword/Settler pair seeking to resettle Tblisi. Excellent. It makes them Aztec slaves instead.

    Unfortunately, our Jags underperform against York. I start sending Ahuitzotl to Tlaxcala instead, to build an Army.

    I met Mao in 290 BC. Unfortunate. About the same time, my road through the jungle is finished, and my Cats advance.

    In 250, Greece builds Knossos in some hills not far from my advance down the western side of the continent. That is going to be a tough nut to crack.

    The army is loaded up in 230. I'd forgotten that armies don't get bonus movement in PTW.

    It captures York without losses in 110 BC.

    London falls in 70 BC. Around that same time, the Chinese are starting to get a decent number of troops in place. But Jaguars continue to be effective, capturing two Russian settlers in 50 BC, and taking out the lead Chinese Horseman.

    In 10 BC, a Jaguar who'd been forced to retreat by a Chinese Archer pillages the Greek source of Iron near Sparta, two tiles south of Athens. How fortuitous that he had to retreat.

    Coventry falls in 30 AD. We need to finish off England soon so we can refocus on Russia and Greece. This is emphasized as under-defended London and York fall to Russia in 70 AD, though London is retaken the very next turn, sinking a Galley in the process.

    We re-take York in 110 AD. Our number of Jaguars, which had held steady at about 20 for some time, is up to 26.

    A Chinese Horse fog-jumps us, taking out a Settler, in 130 AD :(. Looks like it's time to have Spears and not just Jags guarding them.

    In 170 AD, another of our Settlers builds a city right where the Russians wanted to build one. Darn humans, always reading the AI's mind and sending Settlers to where the AI wants to build cities right before they can build them!

    We become the new sheriffs of Nottingham in 190 AD. The English are down to two cities on the continent, and promptly start building the Great Library in Hastings.

    Our first cultural building, a Temple, is completed in 250 AD, with a goal of getting a cow within our borders.

    Our Jaguars get bogged down in the southern Tundra in the late 200s, but finally finish off the English in 340 AD, clearing the path for heading north and focusing on the Greeks.

    However, right after that we lose Ahuitzotl attacking a Russian Swordsman, doing only one point of damage and promoting the Sword. We take this as a sign that perhaps some stronger units would be a good idea.

    In 400, we take out a Hoplite for the first time! Redlining it with Cats set up an Elite Jaguar victory. Meow!

    I finish Monarchy in 420, but elect to stay in Despotism due to unit maintenance costs.

    In 440, I re-pillage Greece's iron. I pillage both of Greece's Dyes in 450 AD, and send a Jaguar towards Thermopylae and their Silks. This is what I call my "Jaguar Hug" strategy. Jaguars are both fast and cheap, making them good for this sort of pillaging duty. It's hard for my enemies to keep up, and it's no big deal if I lose a few.

    In 460, Greece's Horses are pillaged, and in 470 both their Silks and the main roads east and west from Athens suffer the same fate.

    The plan is to continue with the Jaguar Hug while we build enough Catapults to take down Hoplites enough to take cities. By 490 AD, we have 5 cats outside Argos testing its defenses each turn, 4 more en route, and 3 under construction. It is at this point that we complete Currency and enter the Middle Ages.
     
  15. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Industrial Times or Game Submitted

    Spoilers are allowed covering the game up until reaching Industrial Time or having submitted the game. The results of getting and trading bonus technologies at this stage are a permissible topic as well.

    No spoiler information from after fulfilling the spoiler requirement is allowed!
     
  16. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    Rather than post the detailed log, I'll summarize the Middle Ages - it was the Age of Jaguars. I only took southern Greece, bypassing most Hoplites, and focused on Russia next. Once I pillaged their iron, resistance became weak. A similar pattern happened with China, and by 1090 I'd conquered both, except for some lands across the mountains. It was only at that point that I targeted Greece in earnest, and conquered them in 1230. I lazily took out the lands across the mountains after that.

    One odd thing I noticed: Greece was a Republic, yet even cities which were definitely not under siege, such as Knossos, lost population. It's almost as if they were whipping, but being a Republic that makes no sense, and at any rate I am not seeing any military units being produced (although they are bankrupt, so the few times they have built a Longbow, it has only lasted one turn). Was their War Weariness so high that, combined with the lack of luxury connections, their cities are simply shrinking? I witnessed the same thing with China, and it's part of the reason so few cities wound up being captured rather than razed. It's curious, and as a Conquests player a bit puzzling. In Conquests, an AI in perma-war at this stage of the game would typically wind up in Monarchy; only Russia has gone that route in this game.

    The whole time I conquered my continent, I only used Jaguars and Catapults on the offense, with a maximum of 15 catapults meaning a lot of cities were conquered with only Jaguars. It worked quite well; it was only against Greece that I started losing more Jaguars than I was building, and by then I'd started building a fair amount of Libraries and Marketplaces, realizing I soon would have no need for 100+ Jaguars.

    I switched to Monarchy once Greece was conquered (as my support limit had increased, and Jaguar numbers decreased, making it a feasible government). From that point my focus was on technology, and attempting to get ahead of India and Rome, which worked to some extent. The priority being the navy, both due to India annoyingly landing troops, and because I'd need a lot of ships to invade. But I also decided any invasion would be with Muskets and Cavalry, not Jaguars. While perhaps I could have tried to land 200 Jaguars and overwhelmed with sheer numbers, the overhead of managing that many troops was not appealing, and the cost:benefit of cheap Jaguars rapidly diminishes when it requires many more ships to launch the invasion and many of the most productive cities aren't coastal.

    By the time I reached the Industrial Age in 1615, I'd built a lot of libraries and marketplaces and made the economy decent, but the navy was not yet great. I had discovered a way through the mountain chain to the west, but am split on the route of invasion, east or west. I'd thought of landing in the far northeast where only Rome could attack, and whittling them down, but am currently learning towards the southwest, where I can do the same with India, as India has Smith's Trading Company and the Sistine Chapel, which are more appealing than Leonardo's Workshop. Ideally I would attack when they have Metallurgy to obsolete The Great Wall, but before the have Military Tradition to upgrade all their elephants.

    I've also been debating whether to continue Always War, or go Republic and for Space Race and not bother with the invasion. Though Murphy's Law would say that would result in either Rome or India winning a Diplomatic victory. If I do invade, Espionage may be a key tech for purposes of map-stealing and identifying resource locations.

    P.S. What are the rules on spoilers if the game lasts into the industrial age? I'm a bit unclear on if the above notice means "anything until game submitted" or "anything up till reaching the Industrial Age", but have erred on the side of caution.
     
  17. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    It is the final spoiler, so you are welcome to post any spoiler. I think we didn't think that one quite through.
     
  18. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I had discovered that one quite early with the first scouting galley, but already at that early stage (must have been still in the BCs), that hill was blocked by a barbarian who got trapped there... A barb camp had spawned on a mountain directly adjacent to that hill, and as mountain tiles are "unpassable" in this scenario (by design or by accident?), the barbs from that camp had only one tile to move to: that hill. And once on that hill, they could never get off it, because the rest of the tiles were all mountains... :D

    So if this single hill tile in that mountain range was meant as a fast passage to the world in the west, that plan backfired badly for me... The only way to free that tile for a passage to the west would have been to wait until Marines. But of course I did not wait so long, so I had to conquer the world by keeping going east.
     
  19. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    :lol: Oh no! That is quite unfortunate placement. Well, as it is, I am also going east. I decided, as usual, not to try for fastest time. Instead, I invested heavily in the economy, ensuring I stayed ahead of India and Rome, and giving me time to build something other than Jaguars to invade with. In the end, I invaded with Cavalry, Infantry, and Artillery, with an Ironclad navy (over 20 Ironclads, probably the most I've ever built), against Riflemen, Cavalry, and War Elephants. So far, I've only taken three cities, and the offensive has bogged down due to Delhi being on a hill, and my tolerance for flagrant attacks with cheap units being lower with less cheap units. But with some reinforcing artillery coming up, and Rome's reinforcing wave of troops largely dealt with, I'm confident it's now only a matter of time.

    It's been a few years since PTW for me, and one of the stories has been re-adjusting to it. I like how Ironclads are not a separate tech that's never worth researching in PTW. The artillery model (hitting mostly buildings or pop, not units) both makes sense and is annoying. It seems like cities are revolting more than in Conquests, but that's probably just because I didn't invest in culture for 42 centuries. I have the following excerpt from my detailed log:

    So the culture flips probably have something to do with that general problem...
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  20. Captain_Jack

    Captain_Jack Warlord Supporter

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    I designed this game and that was intentional. I apologize if that was not made clear initially. Unfortunately I did not consider the possibility of a barbarian spawning there. I'm sorry you were forced to spend more time at sea, but I'm glad it didn't happen to everyone.
     

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