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GOTM 184 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Ali Ardavan, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Strategy

    The first decision is whether to build the capital on the coast or not. If I do not build on the coast and neither do Indians, then I have to go through Egypt to reach Zulu. Unless I manage to get an alliance with the Egyptians that is going to be next to impossible without much unnecessary warfare. Given that the Indian coast is mostly jungle and swamp, it is unlikely they build a coastal city any time soon.

    The second decision is whether to tip a hut first (hoping for a unit) or build the capital? Given that the closest hut is 3 tiles away, typically it would not be worth it but since here we can only build one city, the delay is not as pronounced.

    I am going to tip the closest hut and then build on the northern tip of Persian gulf. There I have 2 choices, grass at (40,76) and swamp-river at (39,77). The swamp slows down my growth tremendously but the city has much better long term potential. Considering any nomads from huts can only be used for improvements, the initial slow down may not last for very long. Furthermore, building on the river gives me 2 science instead of 1 at the start which is quite an advantage.

    Date Notes

    -4000 Move toward hut.
    -3900 Currency from hut. This is bad. I will delay building the capital and try one more hut.
    -3750 Archer from second hut. This is better.
    -3600 Advanced tribe from third hut; repeat and get 25g. Shush founded at 39, 77 on swamp with river.
    -3550 -> Alphabet.
    -3350 Warrior produced and sent east for hut hunting.
    -3300 Nomad from Arabian hut! This is marvelous.
    -3150 Alphabet -> Code of Laws.
    -3100 Horseman from fifth hut. Code of Laws from Arabian hut! Having produced a second warrior, my capital is now using all shields for support. Fortunately, Monarchy is not too far away. Second warrior heads north for hut hunting.
    -3050 -> Monarchy. 50g from hut.

    Status at -3000
    Population: 0.01M; Cities: 1; Techs: 5; Government: Despotism
    Gold: 87; Cost: 0; Trade routes: 0D0F;
    Wonders:
    Units: 1 None settler, 2 warriors, 1 None archer, 1 horseman
    Goals: Hut hunting, Monarchy, mapmaking, trade
    Russian: no contact
    Zulu: no contact
    German: no contact
    Egyptian: no contact
    English: no contact
    Indian: no contact

    -2950 Nomad reaches home and starts draining the swamp.
    -2900 Empty hut.
    -2850 Empty hut again.
    -2750 Third empty hut in a row! Arabian hut yields Trade increasing the cost of Monarchy from 36 to 50.
    -2700 Horseback riding from hut. Now cost of Monarchy is 66. 50g from hut.
    -2600 Mapmaking from hut. Now cost of Monarchy is 77.
    -2550 Capital is size 2. Barbarian legion from Himalayan hut.
    -2500 Barbarian legion disappears. None elephant from Anatolian hut.
    -2400 Masonry from Arabian hut. 50g from Himalayan hut. Monarchy from Tibetan hut!
    -2350 -> Writing.
    -2300 None archer from Balkan hut. Revolution started.
    -2250 Monarchy established. T3L0S7. The swamp Shush was built on is drained. Math from central Asian hut. 50g from Tibetan hut.
    -2150 Mysticism from Alpine hut. Barbarian horseman from eastern European hut.
    -2100 Barbarian horseman disappears. Barbarian horseman from Chinese hut. Warrior code from Caucasian hut.
    -2050 Horseman on hill survives barbarian horseman. Wheel from central Asian hut. Warrior heads home from Caucasia.
    -2000 None archer from central European hut.

    Status at -2000
    Population: 0.03M; Cities: 1; Techs: 14; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 200; Cost: 0; Trade routes: 0D0F;
    Wonders:
    Units: 1 None settler, 2 warriors, 3 None archer, 1 horseman, 1 None elephant
    Goals: Hut hunting, meeting rivals, building a wonder in capital.
    Analysis: Given that I have units close to all rivals but Zulu and English, and given that I know approximately where everyone is should Marco still be built? Given my techs, tech exchange is unlikely but map exchange is crucial and easier with Marco.
    Russian: no contact
    Zulu: no contact
    German: no contact
    Egyptian: no contact
    English: no contact
    Indian: no contact

    -1850 Shush is size 3. First caravan built. Barbarian horseman from western European hut.
    -1800 Elephant on forested river survives barbarian horseman. Archer runs into Berlin. Peace, Monarchy -> German (4) -> Pottery, 100g.
    -1750 Another archer runs into Russian warrior. Peace -> Russian (1) -> 100g. My power is mighty.
    -1700 None archer from central Asian hut.
    -1650 Archer runs into Egyptian settler. Peace -> Egyptian (3) -> 50g.
    -1550 3 barbarian horsemen from northern European hut. Feudalism from central Asian hut. 3 barbarian horsemen from Chinese hut.
    -1500 Horseman survives 2 barbarian horsemen and turns vet. Archer turns vet but is killed by barbarians. Advanced tribe from central Asian hut builds Pasargadae at 64,38. Barbarian horseman from French hut is killed by my elephant.
    -1450 Polytheism from Ukranian hut.
    -1400 Marco built. As expected no one has a tech I do not. 50g from central Asian hut.
    Mapmaking -> German (4) -> maps. Alphabet -> Egyptian (3) -> cut off.
    Mapmaking, Bronze Working -> Russian (1) -> maps, 0g
    Peace, Mapmaking -> Zulu (6) -> maps
    Peace, Trade, Wheel, Mysticism, Math -> English (2) -> maps, 0g
    Peace, Mapmaking -> Indian (0) -> maps, 150g
    -1350 Trade -> Egyptian -> Construction, 0g. My power is now supreme.
    -1250 Capital is size 4. Barbarian horseman from Siberian hut. Engineering from French hut.
    -1200 Siberian barbarian kills my warrior. Seafaring from Russian hut.
    -1150 Trade -> German -> Writing, 75g
    -1100 -> Iron Working. Zulu, English -> 0g
    -1050 Astronomy from hut.
    -1000 25g from hut.

    Status at -1000
    Population: 0.13M; Cities: 2; Techs: 22; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 305; Cost: 0; Trade routes: 0D0F;
    Wonders: Marco
    Units: 1 None settler, 1 warrior, 3 None archer, 1 pikeman, 1 horseman, 1 None elephant, 2 vans
    Goals: Hut hunting (both cities producing explorer), delivery to Delhi (van on its way), Hanging Gardens?, Colossus?
    Russian: 3 cities, 6 techs; war with German
    Zulu: 6 cities, 7 techs;
    German: 3 cities, 8 techs; war with Russians
    Egyptian: 2 cities, 11 techs;
    English: 3 cities, 11 techs;
    Indian: 2 cities, 6 techs;

    -0975 25g from hut.
    -0950 Barbarian horseman dies in attack on Pasargadae. Navigation from hut a few turns before my first delivery; oh well.
    -0900 25g from hut. Barbarian horseman from hut near Pasargadae. Chivalry and Iron Working from hut.
    -0875 Pikeman survives barbarian horseman. -> Bridge Building.
    -0850 Knight from siberian hut. Silver to Delhi for a disappointing 52.
    -0825 50g from Russian hut. Barbarian horseman from southeast Asian hut.
    -0800 Horseman survives yet another barbarian. Bridge Building from Indian hut. Literacy from Mongolian hut. Russian, German, Egyptian -> 100g.
    -0775 -> Philosophy.
    -0750 50g from hut.
    -0725 Barbarian horseman from Russian and Indians huts. Boat takes off from capital with a caravan and a diplomat towards Zulu lands.
    -0700 Archer survives barbarian horseman and turns vet. Knight from Mongolian hut. Invention from Siberian hut. No more techs from huts and at max science of 70% it takes me 116 turns to do a discovery and I am only a quarter of the way full.
    -0650 25g, 100g from huts.
    -0625 Turned down German offer of 50g for war against Russians. 50g from hut. 4 barbarians from Mongolian hut; explorer runs away.
    -0600 3 barbarian horsemen from Siberian hut. None legion from southeast Asian hut. Indian -> 100g, maps.
    -0575 Archer survives 2 barbarian horsemen, the third runs away. 2x50g from huts
    -0550 4 barbarians from Himalayan hut; explorer tries to run away but despite being on a mountain with river is killed by a barbarian legion next turn. 50g from island hut off the coast of Africa; and advanced tribe here would have been marvelous.
    -0525 50g from hut.
    -0500 None knights from Spanish and Chinese huts. No more huts left in Europe. Russian, Egyptian -> 100g; German, Indian -> maps; English demand 150g and declare war.

    Status at -0500
    Population: 0.18M; Cities: 2; Techs: 28; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 1150; Cost: 0; Trade routes: 0D1F;
    Wonders: Marco
    Units: 2 settlers (1 None), 1 warrior, 3 None archer, 1 None legion, 1 pikeman, 1 horseman, 1 None elephant, 4 Knights (2 None), 1 caravel, 2 vans, 1 explorer
    Goals: Hut hunting, capturing Delhi (several units on their way), delivering to and possibly bribing a Zulu city, capture of now-English Konigsberg with my 2 none units in Europe?, Hanging Gardens?, Colossus?
    Russian: 4 cities, 8 techs; war with German
    Zulu: 8 cities, 8 techs; war with Egyptians
    German: 3 cities, 9 techs; war with Russians and English
    Egyptian: 3 cities, 15 techs; war with Zulu
    English: 4 cities, 14 techs; war with German
    Indian: 4 cities, 8 techs;
     
  2. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Looking back on my initial decisions, I made good decisions but the way events unfolded they turned out to be not crucial game-changing decisions, merely good decisions.
    - building on the coast: Good decision. Indians have not yet built on the coast. Egyptians, however, have offered alliance which I turned down. The sea route is not much faster given the long Nile river, but it gives you options. For example, I can easily bypass Zimbabwe and bribe a city further south which is the current plan.
    - going for huts before founding capital: good decision despite having to go after 2 huts and delaying the foundation of capital till -3600. By -3100 all my shields were being used for support, this would have happened sooner was it not for the first unsupported unit.
    - building on the swamp. This was risky and it paid off when the fourth hut yielded a nomad. Given the nomad, this was a great decision; had I not gotten the nomad, I would have regretted it.

    Observations:
    I have researched only 1 tech in this game so far and that was the first one costing 18 arrows. I could have easily ended up with zero researched techs was it not for the fact that during the 9 turns it took me to do the research I only tipped one hut and it did not yield tech. No new tech discovery is in sight due to small number of cities and all rivals except far away English being on the same land mass.

    I got fewer units, far more techs, and far fewer Advanced tribes than I expected from huts. The latter is partially due to rough terrain. By -700 when I got invention from a hut, huts yielded 22 techs, 8 units, 11 gold, 12 barbarians, 3 empty ones, 1 nomad, and 1 advanced tribe.

    Unfortunately getting invention before getting Republic means that I am stuck in Monarchy for a very long time. My capital could have easily celebrated to size 12 if I had Republic.
     
  3. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    524
    "Unfortunately getting invention before getting Republic means that I am stuck in Monarchy for a very long time. My capital could have easily celebrated to size 12 if I had Republic."

    This was my observation as well, once I was replaying for personal goals. Whether one has a good game or not is HEAVILY dependent on hut outcomes, and where ancient scrolls take you. In quite a few of my tries, I wasn't even able to research Monarchy before being saddled with massive tech costs.

    The other negative incentive is that with only 1 city, and many huts to pop, you end up with crippling unit supporting costs once your explore EastAsia and the Siberias. Technically, you can let the Indians survive and use Delhi as a source of NONE units (instead of them being supported by your capital if you take out the Indians by 2500BC) But then you have to hope for no advanced tribes when exploring over there, which defies conventional logic. And if you do let them survive, then you have to build a whole new military force from your capital, which makes you run into the shields problem again. Can use mercenaries, but then no vets.

    Honestly, I feel like the game would have been much more enjoyable had we been in Fundamentalism or something... although it might be RNGsus screwing me. A lot. A whole lot.
     
  4. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Location:
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    The rules in this game are unique and it is a tribute to the powerful design of Civ2 that such rules can have such a dramatic effect on the game.

    I agree. However, you always have the option of stopping to pop huts or going after a different region (to solve the unit support problem). My unit support problem did get acute at times to the point that I started thinking about what to disband if I have to but thankfully always stopped at the brink. Of course I got a disproportionately small number of units to begin with.

    With Ceremonial Burial as a starting tech Monarchy could be your third tech and it was in my case. Lucky for me, I got Code of Laws while I was researching it so I could switch to Monarchy. Then I got so many techs that it was apparent I am never going to get Monarchy on my own unless I stop popping huts. Fortunately I got it before long. Without Monarchy, I would have been in deep trouble.

    It did occur to me to go after Indians early and wipe them out before they can get Bronze but decided that hut popping is more strategically important. But there was another reason for not doing so which did not occur to me till later on. English took over two German cities and declared war on me during a diplomatic exchange. I had two offensive units in Europe after popping all the huts there. I decided to go after English cities on the main continent of Europe to get myself a foot hold there. Unfortunately, both were razed. Then I realized that the same could have happened had I gone after Indians too early.

    You have not abandoned your first attempt I hope.
     
  5. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    There were two big, potentially game changing, and unexpected events in this era. First was that I decided to try to capture the 2 cities English captured from Germans on mainland Europe with the two units I had there hut popping. Unfortunately for me, both ended up being razed instead; I should have waited till they were size 3 or 4. Konigsberg was a port city and had I been able to get it, the English invasion would have been sped up tremendously. The second event was that a Zulu trireme sneak attacked and sunk my Caravel with 3 units on board which was already south of Zimbabwe. This set back Zulu invasion by many turns.

    -500 to +1


    -0475 100g from hut. 4 barbarians from east African hut surround my diplomat. Caravel heads back for more diplomats.
    -0450 English capture Hamburg as well. 25g from hut.
    -0425 25g from hut.
    -0400 Knight on mountain survives barbarian legion and turns vet. 25g from hut. 4 barbarian horsemen from northeast Asian hut surround my explorer who tries to run away.
    -0375 Explorer survives one barbarian horseman, another runs away. 4 barbarians from Himalayan hut surround my none legion on mountain top. Advanced tribe founds Susa in southeast Asia at 93,87.
    -0350 Legion survives first barbarian and turns vet, then it barely survives two more, and fortunately the last one turns away. 5 barbarians from Siberian hut surround my archer.
    -0325 Barbarian horsemen kill my archer. 25g from Siberian hut.
    -0300 Elephant and knight raze English Konigsberg and both turn vet.
    -0250 Knight from northeastern Asian hut.
    -0225 Indian -> 75g; Egyptian, Russian -> 50g; German -> 100g. 25g from hut. None Knight from Siberian hut.
    -0200 25g from hut. Hamburg razed for 22g. Accept English offer of 250g for peace. Indians have built Calcutta close enough to my capital that they share two tiles.
    -0175 None Knight from east African hut. 8 barbarians from northeastern Asian hut surround my explorer.
    -0150 Barbarians kill my explorer. Barbarian horseman pillages irrigation of Pasargadae. Germans capture Moscow. 25g from hut.
    -0125 Barbarian horseman dies in attack on Pasargadae. Hanging Gardens built. None knight from Siberian hut.
    -0100 Indian -> 50g, Egyptian -> 100g
    -0075 Zulu build Pyramids. 2x50g from Himalayan and Korean huts. Calcutta subverted for 2x64g. Got 6g and a Phalanx.
    -0050 25g from African hut.
    -0025 Indians declare war rather than pay tribute. 2 Knights kill Phalanx and warrior defending Delhi. The city is captured for 16g.
    +0001 Knight survives 2 Indian warriors and turns vet. Zulu trireme sneak attacks and sinks my Caravel with 3 units on board. This is a big disaster. 50g from Siberian hut. English declare war rather than pay tribute.

    Status at +0001
    Population: 0.36M; Cities: 5; Techs: 28; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 1596; Cost: 0; Trade routes: 2D0F;
    Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens
    Units: 2 settlers (1 None), 1 warrior, 1 Phalanx, 2 None archer, 1 None legion, 2 pikemen, 1 horseman, 1 None elephant, 7 Knights (4 None), 2 diplomats, 4 vans, 1 explorer
    Goals: Hut hunting, capture of at least 2 of the remaining 3 Indians cities, conquest of Zulu, Colossus?, Magellan?
    Russian: 3 cities, 9 techs; war with German
    Zulu: 7 cities, 9 techs; Pyramids; war with Egyptians and me
    German: 3 cities, 11 techs; war with Russians
    Egyptian: 5 cities, 17 techs; war with Zulu
    English: 4 cities, 16 techs; war with me
    Indian: 3 cities, 10 techs; war with me
     
  6. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    +1 to +500

    Only one surprise in this period. Egyptians got Republic (from a hut I suppose) and I got it from them in 200. Despite being done with Indian conquest and Zulu invasion quite a few turns away I stayed at Monarchy because hardly no city other than capital could celebrate and I was not sure how long I can keep that one going. I decided to get prepared first and postpone a switch to Republic.
    I deliberately spared the last Indian city to keep my tech cost from becoming unmanageable.

    +0020 25g from African hut.
    +0040 50g from Siberian hut.
    +0060 Legion from Chinese hut. Phalanx defending Bombay killed and the city captured for 23g.
    +0080 Bangalore bribed for 171g. Got 50g, Phalanx, archer, and Barracks. 50g from African hut.
    +0100 Accepted Indian offer of 50g for cease fire. 100g from Siberian hut.
    +0120 2x50g from Chinese huts.
    +0160 Colossus built in capital; English abandon, Germans switch to Great Wall. 50g from Siberian hut. 5 barbarian horsemen from African hut. Russians declare war rather than pay tribute. German, Egyptian -> 50g.
    +0180 Barbarians kill my diplomat.
    +0200 Egyptians acquire Republic! Invention -> Egyptian -> Republic. Advanced tribe founds Arbela in China at 87,59. Knight from Siberian hut.
    +0220 First structure, a court house in Delhi, is built.
    +0240 50g+25g from Siberian huts. German -> 100g
    +0300 Nomad from hut in Indian ocean. I only have 8 cities and an earlier none settler; hmm!? 8 barbarian horsemen from polar hut surround my explorer and kill it the next turn. Egyptian -> 100g. Bought 100 shields towards Magellan.
    +0320 Magellan built. Caravel leaves my southeast Asian outpost for hut hunting in the pacific.
    +0360 Philosophy -> Monotheism -> Physics. 100g from Pacific hut. Accepted Russian peace offer.
    +0380 3 soldiers land around Zimbabwe. Rejected Zulu offer of 200g for cease fire. 50g from Pacific hut.
    +0400 2 Zulu warrior die in attack on my now vet archer. Zimbabwe captured for 60g and barracks.
    +0420 Zulu elephant approaches Zimbabwe. Accepted Zulu offer of 350g for cease fire. 2x50g from Pacific and Scandinavian huts.
    +0440 50g from Pacific hut.
    +0460 50g from African hut. 25g from Singapore hut. Wine from Pasargadae to Indian Madras for a disappointing 25g.
    +0480 Wine from capital Shush to Zulu Hlobane for 190. Legion from Siberian hut. 50g from Pacific hut.
    +0500 Explorer survives barbarian horseman in the wild. 50g from Pacific hut.8 barbarians from Scandinavian hut surround my vet none archer.

    Status at +0500
    Population: 1.0M; Cities: 9; Techs: 31; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 978; Cost: 8; Trade routes: 2D2F;
    Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Magellan
    Units: 7 settlers (2 None), 1 warrior, 2 Phalanx, 3 archer (2 None), 3 Legion (1 None), 5 pikemen, 1 horseman, 1 None elephant, 8 Knights (4 None), 1 diplomats, 6 vans, 2 explorer
    Goals: Hut hunting, conquest of Zulu, invasion of England, Magnetism, Leo?, Michelangelo and Republic?
    Russian: 3 cities, 10 techs;
    Zulu: 8 cities, 9 techs; Pyramids;
    German: 5 cities, 14 techs;
    Egyptian: 6 cities, 19 techs;
    English: 5 cities, 18 techs; war with me
    Indian: 1 cities, 13 techs;
     
  7. Major Advantage

    Major Advantage Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Germany
    So, high time to join the conversation. # 182 took way longer than expected to drive it home, so I have skipped #183.

    The first decision was were to found our city. After long thinkin (with no obvious site nearby) I ended up with the same decision as Ali. Now the next decision was when to found it. I figured there was no need to hurry, on the contrary. As long as I do not have any city at all, there will be no barbs from huts, and all my mercenaries will be none, so I intentionally spent some more time before founding, making a hut-popping-circle and draining the swamp before. And I do not regret this decision.
    However, this way of playing gives you a lot of uncontrollable techs, increasing tech-costs, so I didn't discover (or maybe rather developed) any tech by myself. Unfortunately, Invention came before monarchy or republic, so I was in despotism for a long time. Luckily, I got monarchy from the Egyptians in -1100.

    Here is my log until -500. Unfortunately, My PC crashed and all my live-log between -1100 and -625 was lost.

    Initial: Will pop some huts first before founding the city @ 19,77 (map editor coordinates)

    -4000 Moving north
    -3900 first hut: horse, excellent, will move east
    -3850 2nd hut: another horse
    -3750 3rd hut: HBR, not good; 4th hut: Archer
    -3700 5th hut: 100g
    -3600 Another horse
    -3550 Settler arrives at city site, start irrigating
    -3300 25g from hut
    -3250 Discover indian Delhi, sign peace
    (Russians destroyed by Germans)
    -3100 Alphabet+horse from huts
    -3000 Archer, 50g WC from huts
    -2950 Another Archer
    -2900 Irrigation done, found city, "In the lap of the gods" is too long for city name, name it "Now I'm here"
    -2850 Research CoL; nomads from caucasian hut
    -2750 Wheel from hut
    -2700 Discover egyptian Thebes, get CoL, sign peace, get 50g tribute; archer from hut, currency from hut
    -2650 Research Monarchy
    -2600 Mapmaking from hut
    -2550 Discover Memphis and Archer is teleported home; 2*barb horse from hut, was about time to happen, IW from hut
    (Horse on hill + archer on forest both survive barb attacks)
    -2500 S1-settler built, boat is next; Another barb horse in india, masonry from hut
    (Horse in India dies to barbs)
    -2450 Another barb horse from hut, we kill it
    -2350 Same again
    -2300 Discover German Moskau, sign peace
    -2200 Construction from hut
    -2150 Use teleport from Moskau to bring archer home, legion, 50g from huts
    -2050 Another legion from hut; gamble on tech trades, trying to speed up monarchy or republic, get pottery from India (+50g)
    -2000 Boat leaves with 1 archer (another will be picked up), begin colossus
    -1950 Use Berlin teleport to get horse home, engineering from hut

    Stats at 1950BC:
    pop.: 30k; Cities: 1; techs: 14; gold: 273; Gov.: Mon; wonders: -; TR: 0D/0F
    units: 2 settler, 4 archer, 2 legion, 3 horse, 1 boat
    Goals: Hut hunting, send untis to central africa for exploration

    -1900 50g from hut
    -1850 horse from hut (supported this time)
    -1800 barb horse + 50g
    (Archer survives)
    -1700 Poly from hut, get writing from germany, should we switch to library? 21 wonder shields are done...
    -1650 Library built, settler settles back into city, weeds in hut
    -1600 Bridge-building from hut + 2*barbs
    (We win both times)
    -1550 50g from hut, horse dropped in Somalia; switch production to diplomat(should have done earlier, but only wasted 5 shields)
    -1500 hut on Loire-mouth, we really hope for a city and get...literacy! At least the second best outcome, now republic could come next
    -1450 Advanced tribe in India! Yes! Name it "Innuendo"
    -1400 4 Barbs in Abessinia, Invention from hut! Ouch, the very worst outcome...
    (Archer on mountain survives and turns vet)
    -1350 Legion in africa
    -1300 Run into Zulu Bapedi, sign peace;
    -1200 50g
    -1150 Legion in Ukraine
    -1100 Legion in Africa, get Monarchy from Egypt! Revolution
    ...

    Stats at 1000BC:
    pop.: 80k; Cities: 3; techs: 20; gold: 359; Gov.: Mon; wonders: -; TR: 0D/0F
    units: 1 settler, 1 phalanx, 4 archer, 5 legion, 4 horse, 1 boat, 2 dip
    Goals: Attack India soon, capture/destroy capital, bribe the other city, hope for more units in Africa to attack Zulu, send units to Europe

    ...
    -625 Args, PC crash and 500 years of log are gone... Recap: India defeated; Zimbabwe destroyed, Bapedi bribed for 120 (42+Myst.), we have an advanced tribe in the Netherlands, English have just crossed the channel, we paid 50g for peace with them.
    -600 50g from hut
    -575 50g from hut
    (vet elli killed by Zulu)
    -500 50g

    Stats at 500BC:
    pop.: 280k; Cities: 6; techs: 22; gold: 509; Gov.: Mon; wonders: -; TR: 0D/0F
    units: 3 settler, 2 warrior, 3 phalanx, 3 archer, 5 legion, 4 horse, 4 elephant, 2 boat, 4 dip
    Goals: Conquer Zulu, attack England, hopefully get their capital, then bribe other cities, keep hut hunting in Asia and west africa for gold
     
  8. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Interesting. I delayed city building when I got Currency out of the first hut but as soon as I got my first unit (an archer) I built the city. I cannot argue with your reasoning though. At times my production was zero because of support and while you got no techs developed on your own I only got 1 which of course helped a little by guiding me in the right direction but I was stuck on Monarchy for some time with no end in sight till I got lucky and got it from a hut.
    How interesting that we both got our Advanced tribe within one turn of each other.
    Did you really have 3 cities or is that a typo? There is no mention of the third city in your log...
    You are well ahead of me in -500. Your decision to attack Indians early paid off.

    In my game, an unexpected challenge is finding all the Zulu cities. They built more cities than anyone else by a long shot.
     
  9. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Jokemaster, you have been awfully quiet about your game.

    Anyone else playing?
     
  10. Major Advantage

    Major Advantage Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Location:
    Germany
    Checking.... Yes, I was right, I think in -1000 (log lost in the PC crash) I got that advanced from the Netherlands hut, named it "Breakthru", anticipitating that this city would be the breakthrough to the conquest of England. "Seaside Rendevouz" would also have been a nice name.
    I figured there was no need to keep them. Tech rates were already too high to discover anything, so better take them down as long as I know all of their cities (I missed a settler slipping by in the game with that weird european map Inkerman created, learned my lesson).
    Same here, no other choice than to sign peace and exchange maps. The same for England.
     
  11. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    353
    GOTM 184 Log until 2000BC

    I came to the same conclusion as Ali about city site, but I founded ASAP. I wanted to start building boats faster. My goal was a pre-1AD conquest (surprise!). I ended up with three advanced tribes in China, plus others in Troy, Mumbai, and Bordeaux. Also two near the Zulus - one after conquest. And I also got all but one of the Zulu cities for a total of 14 at the end. I only researched 3 techs this game (Alphabet, Monarchy, and Philosophy. I got Republic from a hut in 1300 and later revolted back to Monarchy - that was a first! I was surprised to get Invention from a hut before any of the Poly/Mono/Feudalism techs, but it happened.

    Preliminary plans:
    On this modified World Map, there are many huts, but very few of them are potential city sites. I need to found on a seacoast. The choices are Basra or Karachi, but Karachi might have problems with the Indians and Basra is closer. On the rivered Swamp for extra science. With any reasonable luck I should get a nomad somewhere for draining.

    But then I plan to pop a thousand huts. I will go for Map Making and probably Seafaring, but the progress toward Monarchy can probably wait because I will have so few cities. Tech goal: Alph, MM, Seaf, then trade etc.

    Hope for an early 2-move unit, then visit India, and explore North for huts and West hoping for an AT on the coast in Europe. (3 options).

    4000 move N
    3950 ditto
    3900 Here we go! Hut: Horse. Good start.
    3850* Hut: Archer. Horse goes north.

    3750 Hut: Archer. Back to Basra. Basra founded on Swamp. Building a Settler hoping for MM and just in case of no Nomads.
    3700 Res Alph. Hut: Nomads. They go back to Basra.

    3500 Alph => MM
    3450* Indians found. No peace or tech. Delhi size 1.
    3400 Delhi size 2. We ask for tribute, they ignore.
    3350 Hut: weeds. Hut: NONE Chariot.
    3300 Nomad starts irrigating.
    3250* Hut: Myst.
    3200 Hut: Pottery.
    3150 Germans: Peace, no tribute. Hut: Code of Laws. Declare war on Indians, kill warrior, Archer => Vet.

    3050* Hut: 25g
    3000 Russians: peace, 50g.

    Status 3000 BC:
    1 City, 1 Settler. 91g Gov: Despotism.
    2 Archers, 1 Horse, 1 Chariot (all NONE)
    6 techs; res MM.


    2950 Hut: NONE Horse (from gobi desert). Hut: Currency
    2900 Archer kills Delhi Phalanx.

    2800 Hut: Trade. Switch Basra build to Caravan. Hut: NONE archers.
    2750.. Hut. Map Making
    2700 Basra: Silver van. Res Monarchy.
    2650* Hut: NONE Archers.
    2600 Hut: Barb Legion. Horse moves away.
    2550 Hut: Chengdu (2). Basra irrigated. Hut: NONE Chariot
    2500 Hut: Warrior Code.

    Status 2500 BC:
    2C, 1 Sett. 80g. gov: Despotism. 10 Tech, res Mon
    4 Archers, 2 Horse, 2 Chariot (all NONE)
    1 Van


    2450* Hut: NONE Chariot
    2400 Hut: Archer (Basra)

    2300 Germans develop Writing. Hut: Seafaring. Hut: NONE Archers.
    2250* Hut: Troy (3). Start building Triremes. Hut: Weeds. Hut: 50g
    2200 Hut: Construction. Hut: 100g (from what might have been Copenhagen)
    2150 Hut: Barb Horse (from what might have been Amsterdam). Hut: Barb Horse.
    2100 Archer survives Barb horse attack => vet. Hut: 25g.
    2050* Germans: Writing, 100g. Russians: WAR. Archer kills Russian warrior.
    2000 Hut: Mumbai (4). Hut: HB. Hut: Wheel.

    Status 2000BC:

    4C, 1 Sett. 247g. gov: Despotism. 16 tech, res Mon.
    6 Archers, 2 Horse, 3 Chariot, 1 explorer
    1 Van
     
  12. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    353
    Log to 1250 BC

    1950 Hut: Archers (Chengdu). Hut: Bordeaux (yes!!) (5) - Barracks, then 2 boats.
    1900. Hut: 50g.

    1750 Hut: Engineering
    1700 Hut: Iron Working. Hut: NONE Legion. Russians: 94g for peace. Give IW, get map.
    1650* Hut: Bridge Building.
    1600 Germans: 25g. Hut: 100g.

    1500 Hut: Literacy. Hut: Harbin (6).

    Status 1500BC
    6C, 1 Sett. 191g. Gov: Despotism 20 tech, res Mon (about a third of 380 beakers).
    7 Archers, 1 legion, 2 horse, 3 Chariot, 1 dip, 1 explorer
    1 Van, 3 Trireme.


    Plan for 1000 BC:
    Hope for Poly and Monarchy thru huts. Meanwhile, 2 boats to England with Dip and Chariot. Bribe a city. Also dip and chariot to Zulus; one more boat for speed.
    If Delhi is not resolved by 1000, raze it.

    1450* Hut: Chariot (Bordeaux) will disband it for 2nd trireme.
    1400 Hut: Republic. Wow. New plan – revolt in 1300.
    1350 Hut: Legion (Mumbai)
    1300 Hut: 9 barbs. Hut: 50g. Revolution.
    1250* Gov: Republic. Lux to 40. English: WAR. Empty. York (7) and bribe for 165g
     
  13. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    353
    Republic => Monarchy

    1200 Raze Delhi, Indians destroyed.
    1150 English withdraw. Basra size 4. Basra Silver to Moscow (d, 204) Hut: Invention. So much for Science.
    1100 Hut: 25g. Hut: 50g. Hut: 50g. Hut: 100g.
    1050* Egypt: peace.

    Status 1000BC
    7C, 2 Sett. 322g, gov: Republic. 22 techs, res Monarchy. (about 400 of 630)
    8 Archer, 2 legion, 1 horse, 3 chariot, 1 explorer, 2 dip
    3 vans, 4 trireme


    How did I do?
    Hope for Poly and Monarchy thru huts. -- Republic instead
    Meanwhile, 2 boats to England with Dip and Chariot. Bribe a city. √
    Also dip and chariot to Zulus; one more boat for speed.
    If Delhi is not resolved by 1000, raze it. √

    Plan or 750 bc:
    Dip and chariot to Zulu.
    MPE in Chengdu
    Work for HG in Basra.
    Need to do a lot of trading to get to Monarchy, much less something like Mono.

    950 Basra: Library. Zulu: Peace, Map exchange. They have 4 cities and a road network. Plan to bribe a city and work from there.

    900 Hut: Beijing (8). Now it’s a reasonable wonder base in China. Hut 25g. Hut: Nomads near Zulus.
    850 Monarchy => Phil. We Love starts in Mumbai – wait until 725 to revolt back.. Hut: 50g. Hut: 25g.
    825* Mumbai size 4, but can’t grow further without temple.
    800 Hut: Lichinga (9). Hmmm. I wanted a unit but this will be better. Barracks first. Russians: WAR. Warrior killed, vet.

    750 Hut: 50g. English withdraw. Revolt to Monarchy? Yes.

    Status 750 BC:
    9C, 3 settlers. 82g. Gov: Republic or Monarchy
    1 Warrior, 8 Archer, 2 legion, 1 horse, 3 chariot, 1 explorer, 3 Dip
    4 trireme, 5 vans.


    MPE can be soon in Chengdu, or wait and get Leo or MPE after next van delivery.
    Zulu plan: Barracks in Lichinga, attack with vet chariot, archer, and dips. Unfortunately, cannot make a boat in Lichinga.

    725* gov: Monarchy. Germans: 100g. Hut: 50g.
     
  14. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    353
    Monarchy to Republic

    700 Zulu: 75g. Egypt: 100g.
    650 Germans steal tech: we declare War.
    625* hut: 9 barbs. Explorer is toast.
    600 Zulu: 25g. Egypt: 100g. Russia: 100g for peace.

    525* Egypt develops Banking. Zulu develop Math. Basra Wine to London (u, 98g).
    500 Egypt: Banking. Konigsberg destroyed.
    475 Zulu: War.
    450 Zimbabwe razed, Mathematics. Ulundi (10) bribed for 108g. Egypt: 50g. Germans: War.
    425* English sneak attack. Archer kills Horse. Bapedi (11) bribed for 108g. .
    400 Germans: 50g for peace. Russians: 25g.
    375 Isandlhwana found and emptied.
    350 Basra builds HG. Russia: 25g. Revolution
    325* gov: Republic.

    I finished before 1 AD.
     
  15. Major Advantage

    Major Advantage Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    504
    Location:
    Germany
    Impressive! :thumbsup: Would you say that you did you do so because of or despite having founded your city asap?
    Spoiler :
    I didn't get that BC-finish myself, the English got an advanced tribe in Spain that took some time to get to.
     
  16. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    353
    Well, I really don't know. I got Mumbai in 2000, which provided the main Zulu transport. I got to the Zulus in 800bc, with a vet chariot and a dip. I guess I could have done that sooner - I ended up building a van in Basra because I wanted to wait for Poly to attack the Zulus. I got a tribe south of the Zulus and that was huge - even better than I expected. I wonder whether the optimum plan isn't to wander to the French coast. I do think that staking all on hut luck (at the low barb setting it isn't that much risk) is the way to go in this one.
     
  17. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    524
    I skipped GOTM184 to focus on GOTM185.
     
  18. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Congratulations grigor on a finish before +1. I doubt anyone can beat that. Another well deserved green star. I think more than anything you have the advanced tribes to thank for. By -1000 you had 7 cities, 5 from advanced tribes. I got only 1 advanced tribe in that period; Major got 2.

    Jokemaster, sad to hear you skipped this one in favor of 185. This is such an unusual challenge.

    I got to +1000 before the holidays but for some reason failed to post my log past +500. I just finished a couple of nights ago. Will post a log soon.
     
  19. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    353
    Yes, I got a lot of tribes. But I really popped a ton of huts. I studied the map for two months before I had time to play, and identified all the possible tribe sites; I prioritized my exploration that way. I was expecting more units, and that's why I played the Indians to a stalemate until 1100BC (to get NONE units until I had popped most of the asian huts). But I didn't get enough units for that to be important. Most of the early huts were tech, and like many of you I developed very few techs this game. I thought going for Map Making early was an important decision. The tribes south of the Zulu area were lucky and unexpected, and the first one was definitely important to a speedy finish. I was hoping for something useful from the huts and city sites north of the Zulus but they were totally fruitless and I was short of units for attacking the Zulus until the tribe in the south came up. I was really hoping for at least one of the three European coastal sites, and I was fortunate to get the last one in the south of France. Otherwise I would have needed a Trireme and Diplomat from Troy. The three Chinese cities were not important to the finish time, but did allow Wonder building, so I enjoyed getting Leonardo at the end.
     
  20. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    My first Advanced tribe was in central Asia (-1500), second one in in southeast Asia (-375), and third one (+200) in China. Those meant that all units from Asian huts were supported.
    Not only I did not get any Advanced tribes in Europe but when I attacked the 2 English cities (formerly German) there hoping to capture them, both got razed. I had to ship units to England from Persian gulf.
     

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