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GOTM 192 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Prof. Garfield, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Chieftain Supporter

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    (1) June 1940:

    Usual Axis attacks against Allies. Axis take Amsterdam, Paris. Allies develop advanced flight, kill subs and other naval units, make some attacks against land units.

    Interestingly, it is still June 1940, and most units can't move.

    Plan for trade: Send engineers to Ireland to build airports, then airlift in trade units. Will send units from the far east.

    Plan for Conquest: The rapid conquest of Germany will require a rail network, so I will build lots of engineers to build that network. Then, I will focus on artillery and tanks, with a decent amount being veteran. I'll research espionage so that I can use spies to sabotage walls. Not sure if that is really necessary or efficient. May reconsider depending on how things go.

    Plan for Cash: City growth will be too slow to help conquest, so I will minimize food production in favour of taxes and shields, and sell sewers and aqueducts, as well as other unnecessary improvements.

    900 gold in treasury to start, but can only sell Krasnovosk temple and Uralsk Aqueduct this turn.

    Rush transport in Riga, disband riflemen in Moscow to produce engineer.

    Rearrange production in Soviet Union.

    (2) August 1940:

    Begin researching Democracy as being on path to espionage.

    Murmansk, Sverdlovsk, Moscow, Sevastopol Engineers. Disorder in Smolensk, since I forgot to check the city after moving tank to Riga.

    Transport leaves Riga with 3 engineers and 2 tanks to build airports in Ireland.

    After some miscellaneous purchases, I have 1061 in treasury, so go and sell something from nearly every city. End with 3581 in treasury. Proceed to rush engineers and some other purchases. Now have 2208 gold.

    (3) October 1940: Some war between Axis and Allies. Axis and French sign peace treaty.

    Omsk dye, Novosibirsk Oil, Krasnoyarsk Oil, and many engineers. Now have 18 engineers.

    New round of sales, start with 2466g and end with 4566g. Spend down to 4340.

    (4) December 1940: Some combat between Axis and Allies.

    Build some engineers. Grozny Power plant. Moscow Oil. Now have 22 engineers. Begin with 4677 gold, after sales have 6057 gold. Spend down to 5591.

    (5) February 1941: More naval combat between Axis and Allies.

    Omsk Gems, Novosibirski Dye, Krasnoyarsk Dye, Uralsk Factory, Kuibyshev Factory, Leningrad Barracks. More engineers. Now have 37 engineers.

    Begin with 5856 gold, after sales have 6656. Spend down to 6443.

    (6) April 1941: More combat between Axis and Allies, including destruction of 9 unit allied stack.

    Build Engineers. Also, Grozny Barracks, Moscow Gems. Now have 39 engineers. Start with 6724 gold, after sales have 7284. After purchases, have 5672.

    (7) June 1941: Axis develop Rocketry. Axis capture Belgrade with Paratroopers. Axis and Allies have combat. Axis patrol tanks near Soviet Border. Allies develop Labour Union.

    Uralsk Wine. More Engineers. Minsk Barracks. Now have 53 engineers, which should be enough. Have 5880 gold, but only sell a cathedral to get to 6000 even. Spend down to 5660. Rail network reaches Urals and most cities.

    (8) August 1941: More combat in the west.

    Omsk builds Superhighways. Novosibirski, Krasnoyarsk and Moscow. build airports. Smolensk Barracks.

    I no longer go through each city looking for things to sell. Remaining improvements are either vital or provide more in revenue than they cost in upkeep.

    Russian Tank kills partisan in Ireland. Build cities of Irish Air 1 and Irish Air 2 in Ireland. Rush airports in those cities. End turn with 4487 gold.

    (9) October 1941: Combat in the west.

    Irish Air 1 and Irish Air 2 build airports. Many barracks are completed. Russians now have 18 Barracks. Airlift two freight to Ireland. End turn with 4031 gold.

    (10) December 1941: Small amount of combat in the west. Turkish tank shows up near Grozny.

    Omsk Oil. Krasnoyarsk superhighways. Moscow Barracks. Krasnoyarsk Oil (d) to Manchester for 1000 gold. Moscow gems (nd) to London for 270 gold. Moscow has highways and Airport, and I thought London had at least an airport. At least the route give +16. Build Irish Air 3. Treasury up to 5454 gold, then spent down to 3663.

    Road Network extended to Krakow. A bit of a risk, but I don't want to expose engineers during war.

    (11) February 1942: Turkish tank goes back to Turkey. Axis develop Genetic Engineering. Some fighting in the west.

    Irish Air 3 builds Airport. Probably unnecessary. I don't know if I'll have that many trade units. Novosibirsky builds Highways.

    Unfortunately, Bucharest now has walls, so my plan to send tanks from Sevastopol is kind of ruined. Krakow costs over 6300 gold to bribe. With 20 armor and 13 artillery, I think it is time to start the war. Steal Rocketry from Germans in Krakow, Axis declare war. Lose 2 artillery attacking Krakow, kill several units. Ship tanks in Sevastopol that were going to attack Bucharest to Odessa, kill tank in fortress outside city. Rail network close enough to Odessa to bring tanks into action.

    Russians capture Krakow, plunder 136 gold. Immediately rush barracks so that units damaged in the attack can be healed next turn. Kill 2 tank stack outside the city. Kill 4 units in fortresses outside Leningrad, but AT on forest kills tank. AT in Helsinki kills Artillery before being defeated by a Tank. Helsinki captured for 85 gold. Tanks clean up partisans. Kill another tank Outside Krakow. Kill 2 unit tank stack outside Konigsberg. Kill 2 freight.

    Investigate Manchester, city has no airport or highway, but it already has three trade routes, so I might be able to clear the oil demand. Minimize trade in Kraznoyarsk and maximize it in Omsk, then deliver gems (nd) to Manchester for 258 gold, and oil demand re-established. Investigate London, no highway, but it does have an airport. Krasnoyarsk dye (nd) to London for 577 gold.

    (12) April 1942: Axis lose some units attacking tanks in fortresses on a hill outside Prague.

    Didn't record production.

    Successfully attack Prague without losing any artillery. Even kill a bomber and cruise missile. Take Prague and plunder 204 gold. Lose rookie tank fighting partisans outside Prague. Prague still has factory, which is nice, but lost walls.

    Investigate Dresden, city has 4 infantry and a cruise missile, and is supporting four more units besides. I decide not to attack. Kill 2 tanks and a bomber near Warsaw, turns out some units were supported by Dresden.

    Moscow oil (d) to Manchester for 524 gold.
    Novosibirsk dye (nd) to Manchester for 264 gold, and cleared oil demand.
    Novosibirsk oil (d) to Manchester for 924 gold.

    Science to 80% to ensure the discovery of Democracy, then remember I can get it from the Allies in exchange for Rocketry. I should now discover espionage on my next turn. Do not hold a revolution. 4 turns is too long to be out of a government. I also get the allied map, and find many troops are in southern France and northern Spain.

    Spend treasury down from 6307 to 5321.

    (13) June 1942: Lose tank (in Prague) and Artillery (beside Prague) to bombers.

    Allies develop computers.

    Begin researching Espionage, and immediately discover it. Begin researching Electronics, which can be stolen from the Axis.

    Prague barracks.

    Kill the two bombers that attacked my troops.

    Devise plan to get Robotics. Will steal techs from Axis until I get Genetic Engineering, will trade that to the Allies for Computers and then use freight to research Robotics.

    Lose 1 artillery attacking Dresden. Kill 4 infantry, 2 bombers, missile. Capture Dresden, plunder 240 gold. Kill bomber outside Dresden.

    Investigate Berlin, it is defended with 3 AT, a rifle, and a missile. Attack, lose 1 arty, use 1 missile, lose 1 tank, take Berlin (Govt escapes to Vienna), plunder 315 gold and the walls are still intact. Kill several partisans.

    Uralsk wine (nd) to Manchester for 134 gold, which clears oil demand.
    I misclick and fail to deliver oil this turn.
    Krasnoyarsk wool (nd) to London for 577 gold.

    Spend down from 6700 gold to 5200.

    (14) August 1942: Lose a couple riflemen to the Axis.

    Novosibirsk gold, various spies, Orsk hides, Magnitogorsk airport. Sverdlovsk oil. Disorder in Dresden, since I forgot to hire entertainers.

    Two spies are captured but succeed in destroying the city walls of Vienna. Vienna is captured and the Axis government escapes to Warsaw. I was considering bribing Warsaw since it has lots of fighters in it at the moment, and was hoping to lower the price. But now I'll have to change plans. Capture JS Bach's Cathedral and 77 gold.

    Attack Warsaw without sabotaging walls, 2 artillery lost. 3 Rifles and 8 fighters defeated. Diplomat steals electronics from Warsaw. Warsaw Captured, govt escapes to Cologne. Bribe partisan for 172 gold.

    Diplomat steals genetic engineering from Konigsberg. Trade Genetic Engineering to the English in exchange for Computers. Sabotage Konigsberg Courthouse (deliberate choice), then bribe the city for 462 gold. Plunder 3 gold and get Copernicus' Observatory.

    Railroad extended to Omsk.

    Omsk oil (d) to Manchester for 903 gold.
    Novosibirsk gems (nd) to London for 520 gold.

    Lose one spy sabotaging Cologne city walls. Lose 1 arty, 1 tank. Capture Cologne. Cost of Munich is 915 gold with courthouse. Frankfurt is 448 gold without courthouse. Milan costs 654, Kiel 560. Have 3 spies active. If I bribe Rome, I get Mike's. I have 10 cathedrals, and I can probably sell some Colosseums also if I get it.

    Victory is zero axis objectives, not cities. Axis have 11 cities with objectives. Tripoli is the most remote of these. Devise a plan to be able to bribe Tripoli in 2 turns. I think I can get the rest of the objectives by then if I plan it right.

    Bribe Milan for 654 gold, spy escapes. Bribe Rome for 776 gold, get Mike's.

    Build the city of East Taranto at (58,86) and immediately rush a transport. This transport will send a spy to Tripoli to bribe the city.

    Bribe Munich for 906 gold, spy escapes. Send captured Missiles to Rome. May be able to end game next turn using missiles from Rome and Paratroopers from East Taranto.

    Have 3947 gold. Go through each city and sell something, usually most expensive building. End with 9527 gold. A lot of Hydro plants sold in Germany.

    Kill some Partisans.

    There are 6 cities that I am likely to have to bribe (last 3 objectives are Paris and Amsterdam, near rail network and no walls). Will want at least 12 spies available so there is a chance to sabotage Courthouses.

    Spend down to 8435 gold (and disbanded some now unnecessary riot police, and some damaged units).

    Made sure to protect the Swiss Railroad.

    (15) October 1942: Lose an Alpine troop near Leningrad to a leftover german Alpine Troop. Other German attacks don't kill units.

    Begin Researching Robotics.

    Have 8916 gold.

    Several Axis cities are in disorder.

    Bribe Frankfurt for 224 gold, lose spy. Bribe Belgrade for 131 gold, even get Paratrooper.

    4 Cruise missiles attack units in and beside Tripoli. Paradrop from East Taranto beside the city and capture it.

    AXIS DECISIVE DEFEAT.

    Kill 1 unit in Amsterdam and take city.

    Spy from Transport out of Helsinki bribes Oslo for 110 gold.

    Decide to Bribe Paris for 238 gold instead of attacking it, lose spy.

    Bribe Bucharest for 824 gold, lose spy.

    Bribe Kiel for 270 gold just for fun, lose spy.

    Bribe Venice for 564 gold.

    ZERO AXIS OBJECTIVES. GOTM COMPLETE.
     
  2. catalin72

    catalin72 Chieftain

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    I played this scenario more times,but Axis-Allies still war in turn 11 is incredible,they make peace in turn 3-4 maximum.This incredible war in turn 11 helped you to found cities in Ireland,normally your ship will be a target for a sneak attack from more civs,can be a Spanish destroyer,a French submarine.And Allies admire very happy your cities in their continent,but this is 2.42...,no hostility in the big WW II..If you try with MGE,you will see like in history,june 1941 or august 1941 Foreign Advisor:'Your cease fire with Axis has expired','sneak attack by Axis forces'...
    When I played with Spanish,I could not take Communism from Neutrals trying exchange,me giving a tech,but they still with Communism extra and making again offer for a trade for Communism,so my conclusion was that a tech with government in this scenario can't be traded.In other game with Russians Allies tribute Fundamentalism,revolution.
    I tried now an old save with Russians,exchange with Allies for my Rocketry(with some gifts in gold before),Democracy is not in list of Allies,I can't choose it,is the save attached+photo,in Windows 7,emissary is black,and sure 'funny' Allies research Nuclear Fission in april 1942.In your game Axis research useful Genetic Engineering. How you obtained Democracy from Allies with exchange,not tribute ?
     

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    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  3. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Impressive as always Prof. Garfield.
     
  4. catalin72

    catalin72 Chieftain

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    Ali,you have up in my post a 'crack' of the famous and friendly 2.42,but you already sent congratulations...Just for curiosity,you are moderator and GOTM setter and you have written in a post about 20 years with Civ II ...in 2014,Civ II released in 1996.
    You have in your personal collection of games any Civ game from I to VI original CD,DVD or Steam key,a game bought with your money?
    Thank you for the response.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  5. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Chieftain Supporter

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    Upon investigation and playing around with the cheat menu, I have determined that in MGE you can't trade for Government techs if the no revolution flag is toggled, although you can still steal techs with a diplomat. This is true for the WWII scenario and for scenarios with different rules.txt . I don't recall if this difference was ever noted in the forums; discussion of scenarios was pretty rare, so it isn't all that surprising that it never came up.

    Since I didn't end up needing howitzers, I could have shut down science completely and stolen democracy once I needed spies, then discover espionage on the next turn, at that point probably provoking an invasion of Ireland by the Allies.

    However, this doesn't account for the increased hostility of the MGE AI. Perhaps the hostile AI makes an Irish trade strategy unreliable. So, for the sake of argument, let us not use that strategy. Perhaps it is not necessary. I had a large treasury at the end of my game, and I didn't sell buildings off on my last turn. Perhaps that is enough to pay for extra diplomats (since I won't have espionage) and the increased cost of bribing cities.

    I ended up having a lot of spare engineers, and ended up looking for work to do. If I trim down the engineer numbers, that means more artillery and tanks sooner, so I can start the attack sooner.

    For comparison, I have attached a game played in MGE. (Technically, I've used the civ2unlimited patch since I use my MGE setup for scenarios that need the extra map size, treasury, and units. The patch doesn't modify the AI.) You can make of this what you will.

    Will only keep minimal log.

    Amazingly, the Axis didn't take Paris the first time I started an MGE scenario. I've saved this event, but it is too unusual for a comparison game.

    Starting again.

    (1) June 1940: Axis take Amsterdam and Paris.

    Zero Science, 20% luxuries. Disbanded many units that were not needed for garrison duty.

    (2) August 1940:

    Now have 24 Engineers.

    Between turns:
    Axis and French make Peace.


    (3) October 1940:


    (4) December 1940:

    Road and Mine the wine near Sverdlovsk (using precharged engineers for the mine--I've been precharging whenever there isn't immediate work) so the city now produces over 50 shields per turn.

    (5) February 1941:

    Rails extend from Kiev to Sverdlovsk.

    Between Turns:
    Axis develop Rocketry. Axis capture Belgrade. Axis tanks cross Russian Border.

    (6) April 1941:

    About 6 Axis tanks (some in stacks) are just waiting in the open to be attacked. I now have 22 armor and 16 artillery, a decent amount of it in position to attack, so now seems a good time to DECLARE WAR ON AXIS.

    Kill a 3 tank stack, 2 tanks, and a 2 tank stack.

    Kill rifle outside Leningrad, and AT in Helsinki. Capture Helsinki, 84 gold, and at least 1 at disbands. Kill partisans.

    Discover 3 more tanks in the open when building road to Krakow, and kill them.

    Won't record details of combat anymore, unless they are especially noteworthy.

    Dip tells me Krakow only defended by 2 rifles, will take this turn. Take Krakow, 160 gold, but walls don't survive.

    Still have at least 5 artillery and enough engineers to rail and fortress to Prague, so attack without investigating city. Three defenders defeated without loss of artillery. Prague captured for 240 gold, but no walls.

    Between Turns:

    Axis tank kills rifleman near Minsk. Allies develop Computers.

    (7) June 1941:

    Dresden defended by AT, 3 rifles, fighter. Lose 1 arty taking city. Capture Dresden with walls and 300 gold.

    Have at least 7 full health artillery to attack Berlin, so decide not to investigate city. Take city without loss. Axis government escapes to Kiel. Capture Berlin and 399 gold, no walls.

    Kiel defended with 2 AT, 2 Rifle, and I can amass 5 artillery beside the city. Attack, lose 1 artillery, and capture Kiel and 195 gold. Gov't escapes to Cologne.

    Attack Amsterdam with tanks, kill Alpine troop and battleship. Capture with 56 gold and walls intact.

    Between Turns:

    Lose 3 engineer stack, and 2 other units.

    (8) August 1941:

    Cologne only defended by 3 units at the moment, but will build AT next turn.

    Kill 3 AT in Paris, capture city, Eiffel Tower, and 104 gold.

    Attack Cologne, lose 2 artillery. Capture Cologne, 157 gold, govt escapes to Munich. Munich is defended by 2 alpine, 2 rifles, 2 cruise missiles.

    Lose 5 artillery attacking Munich. Take Munich and 41 gold.

    Bribe Frankfurt for 912 gold, get 32 back and 5 units.

    Accidentally investigate Milan (was trying to find out bribe cost), and it seems to be supporting a bomber, likely one near Krakow that killed 3 engineers. Take Milan, 23 gold, bomber is indeed disbanded.

    Rome costs 1524 to bribe, a bit expensive, so I will investigate city to see how well defended it is. Three riflemen on a river, not worth 1500 to bribe. Loose 2 artillery and a tank attacking Rome. Capture Rome, 28g and Mike's Chapel, walls intact.

    Move diplomat to bribe Oslo, forgetting that he only had one movement point left.

    Between Turns: Some attacks and pillaging, no Russian losses. Somehow, the diplomat is not attacked.

    (9) October 1941:

    Bribe Oslo for 345 gold. Bribe Bucharest for 1428 gold. Get 5 units including a missile.
    Attack Warsaw, lose 3 artillery and capture city.

    Bribe Konigsberg for 896 gold.

    AXIS DOWN to 4 OBJECTIVES.

    Attack and Capture Venice.

    Vienna costs 1308, has 4 units plus missile. Will bribe after all. Get JS Bach and 26 gold. Looks like bribe was a good choice, all 4 defenders are veteran, and the city is on a river.

    Capture Budapest with Tanks. Capture Belgrade Also.

    Pay 600 gold for axis battleship south of Rome.

    Bribe Taranto for 360 gold.

    Build city of Sicily on top of airbase on that island. Make it a size 2 city just in case. This city will build a transport to allow me to bribe Tripoli.

    Decide to try to eliminate every last axis city next turn. A transport from Taranto gives me a chance to bribe Tobruk if it doesn't get killed.

    Since I never stole Rocketry, I must build bombers to attack Bergen (and use paratrooper). Build cities of Bergen Bomber 1 and Bergen Bomber 2 in Denmark.

    Oslo was to build bomber via rushing factory and disbanded rifleman. Then I realized that not only do I not have rocketry, I also don't have Advanced Flight. Will have to make do with fighters and hope for the best. Build Bergen Fighter 1 and Bergen Fighter 2 for more firepower.

    Lose Artillery attacking partisan on mountain.

    Didn't bother to do full micromanagement.

    Between Turns: Sub attacks my battleship, making it vet.

    (10) December 1941:

    Oslo builds factory because I forgot to change production to fighter (had briefly entertained the possibility of acquiring Advanced Flight.

    Bribe Tripoli for 832 gold. AXIS HAVE ZERO OBJECTIVES

    Bribe Tobruk (disorder) for 171 gold.

    Lose 2 fighters killing Alpine Troops in Bergen. Paratroopers (the one I have at the beginning of the scenario) capture Bergen. Axis Civilization destroyed by Russians.

    -----------------------------------

    Well, this was a nice improvement. Keeping Cathedrals and disbanding riflemen gives a nice jumpstart to production, and it would seem that airports and highways and freight are just a distraction given how long it takes to get engineers to Ireland. Perhaps some time could still be shaved off, but I've played this enough for now.
     

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  6. catalin72

    catalin72 Chieftain

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    Thank you much Prof. Garfield and congratulations for this brilliant victory and good plans!
    Sorry for your time wasted for this new game in MGE,but you showed with this respect for my opinions and my 'status',a real Civ gamer with more original games,making big efforts to find partners for Civ II multiplayer and trying to convince the other GOTM players to renonce to give the beads to the Natives,and the pot of copper for Pocahontas in the year 2017,in the age of Civ VI...
    When I wrote in the GOTM192 thread about 'FAIR competition',this was the message:'Don't use a patch with a dumb AI and friendly in a map with the biggest war from all history,it is ridiculous and TOTALLY out of the reality'.
    I know that Civ2unlimited patch,I use it in multiplayer games, AI is hostile like in MGE.
    Paris French city in the turn 2 and peace Axis-French it's not a surprise,I saw this more times.
    Good luck !
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  7. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I bought Civ1 for macintosh a while after it came out and Civ2 for macintosh soon after it came out. Played those extensively. Do not know how good I was at Civ1, since I had no one to compare against. Sometime after starting to play civ2 I discovered CFC and realized how much I do not know about the game. My first GOTM was GOTM 16. It took a while, but by reading and playing GOTMs my game got better and better. I purchased Civ3 soon after it came out but only played 3-4 games on it. Same thing with Civ4 (I think I only finished one game there). I have since stopped purchasing Civs due to lack of time to play them.
     
  8. catalin72

    catalin72 Chieftain

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    OK,thank you Ali.
    About 'my game got better and better'.You can say :'My game using no hostility versions AGAINST COMPUTER PLAYER got better and better,this is my opinion'.You don't describe your results in multiplayer games and you forget this,Civ II players are thousands,many without account in this site,without playing GOTM.
    From 'the real life' of multiplayer games I can describe this:If I play with a new player a game,Civ or other,if that player has experience with that game,is a good player in multiplayer,first will ask me if I know the game well and if sees a big mistake of mine in the first rounds,he can say:'noob,f...ng noob' and can leave the game,he don't waste time with novices....
    If you remember,more time ago a player has mentioned in a thread about deity+3,+5,+6.. and your response was something like this:'This deity++++ will not change the BAD GAMEPLAY of AI,is hardcoded'.
    A Civ II game with AI friendly for nothing is difficulty chieftain -10,this is my opinion,sorry.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  9. Jokemaster

    Jokemaster Insert something here

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    Wait, victory is at zero Axis objectives? I thought it was Decisive Defeat... dang. That means my date is only April 1944 then. (Before Cologne was conquered... I had gotten a wipe on June1944.)


    Very impressive Prof. Had never considered artilleries due to the cost of having to build so many engineers. Had to rely on bombers instead, and Vet tanks. (Went Konigsberg-Warsaw-Krakow-Prague-Breakout)Your army was cheaper, and didnt need to heal up as much. That saved a bunch. Tried to go to Espionage, but did not manage to get a single tech from research this game.
     
  10. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Chieftain Supporter

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    If there is going to be a discussion about the difference in the Classic and MGE AI, and if my logs are going to be used for that discussion, then I'll upload the saved games for reference.

    The MGE AI is very hostile while the Classic AI isn't. Actually, the Classic AI behaves like the MGE AI if you are supreme and it is after 1750. I noticed this years ago when I played a game where I was alternating between mighty and supreme every turn, and all the other civs were alternating between being uncooperative and enthusiastic depending on my power rating. The Classic AI isn't passive or universally honest. Some civs will like you and some won't. Sometimes there will be sneak attacks, but there is some variety.

    There is, therefore, a well known difference in diplomacy between MGE and Classic. I suppose this makes MGE "harder" in the sense that you can't maintain good relations for longer than a turn. If you want something from the AI, you'll have to deliver caravans beforehand (which improves attitudes) and/or pay tribute. This isn't even universally bad. If you want to declare war as a Democracy (or simply not damage your reputation), the MGE AI is much easier to provoke. Personally, I prefer having serious diplomacy as an option in my games, so when I play a regular game, I play classic (also, I like the option of Deity+ and Barb Wrath). However, this does mean that Classic players have a clear and substantial advantage in comparison games if the best strategy requires good relations with at least some other civs. That is why I replayed the WWII game in MGE, because Irish trade depended on several turns of peace and good relations with the Allies.

    Everyone agrees that MGE players have fewer diplomacy options. In the past, there were instructions and tools for upgrading to MGE from Classic and downgrading MGE to Classic, so anyone who wanted to do an early landing competition or something could get Classic if they felt it mattered.

    So the MGE AI is more hostile than the Classic AI, but there is one question remaining: Is the MGE AI more capable than the Classic AI? That is, does it make better research choices, or unit movements, or get more bonuses than the Classic AI? I don't think so, and I don't recall anyone ever suggesting it, even in the early 2000s when there were lots of people here and at Apolyton and it was fashionable to complain about the AI. I suppose it is possible that no one ever noticed. Skilled players are so much better than the AI that a slightly improved AI could, conceivably, not be noticed. Maybe there was some improvement (I think early versions of the game gave AI air planes unlimited range, but I'm pretty sure that was corrected by 2.42, the version typically called "Classic") but I doubt very much they re-wrote the AI.

    There isn't much discussion of multiplayer around here (although we are running a couple of PBEMs in the Scenario League Subforum). It's perfectly reasonable to be interested in that, but you're then going to be disappointed in discussions where skill is measured in growth rates or shaving off years for a spaceship landing.
     

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  11. catalin72

    catalin72 Chieftain

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    Romania
    Thank you.I saw in the last months that you play Civ II and Imperialism II PBEM,I don't know Imperialism II,I know that is too a good turn based strategy game.Yes,fights with ships or other units of a partner are nice:)).
    Interesting discussion,maybe a new tread about this and a poll 'In which version is hardest to obtain victory,2.42 or MGE?' can be too very interesting.I consider a game in 2.42 easiest than in MGE because if a player don't want or don't like early conquest,or early wars,Marco Polo Embassy is enough to get many techs from AI,maps very important for location of cities(=goodies demanded) and with a non hostile AI,you can send caravans or freights safely 90% maybe.Jokemaster wrote in a spoiler of a GOTM about differences in 'supply and demand',diplomats to investigate cities for this,but I don't remember,I have to look for that page.In MGE with a very hostile AI MPE don't help you too much,my opinion,AI can make frequently sneak attacks against your caravans(ships with them),about Great Libray I think that is a powerful wonder.In my old games in MGE before to play GOTM here and with this to read many strategies articles(with the help of GOTM players,thank you all for this),when I lost this wonder I think it that is a disaster... Caravans/freights were removed in Civ games after Civ II,but in Civ II are key for succes.Too,new cities from huts were removed.A kid or a young who begins to play Civ games with newest games if sees the power of those 'camels' can say that is an 'exploit',like 'chopping forests forever' for 10 shields in the first version Civ III,Vanilla,removed with version 1.29.I know a kid,a grandson of a user known by me after a post in a thread about best score in Civ II maps.When I explained for his grandfather the power of trade with saves before any delivery to foreign cities changing trade arrows in the home city,grandfather too explaining for grandson,he gave up to play Civ II('too easy') and begins to play Civ VI bought by his grandfather:).A true story,but a kid is a kid,Civ II still is a good game in 2017.That Civ VI now has too an 'exploit',I saw in a romanian forum,a worker disbanded far away(maybe surrounded by barbarians) will add shields in a city.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017

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