GOTM 46 Spoiler

[Peaster]

I guess I am addicted. I almost finished on the first day but needed a couple more hours tonight. It was really a pleasure to play on a fairly normal map, after the uber-challenge of GOTM 45 and the October Apolyton tournament.

I conquered in the 1AD to 400AD period. My growth rate was a bit slow for such a nice map, but the beakers came easy and I could quit science after monotheism+feudalism in 500BC. I over-stepped twice and saw my first invasions fail (to AI sneak attacks or by rushing my own attacks). From recklessness and bad luck, I lost 29 units, which is way too much for this map. But I was VERY lucky to see only one respawn, which came pretty early in the game. So, it was over faster than expected. Good luck to all.

 

[la fayette]

. Good luck to all.

Good luck to all
I would probably have finished conquering before 300AD without respawning, but I spent more than 5 centuries finding and destroying those newborne settlers (certainly more than 20 = ).

 

[Peaster]

LaFayette, That must be pretty frustrating. I am convinced that re-spawning is not entirely random. The probability must depend on some factor introduced after the start of the game. [number of cities? casualties? some key advance? a wonder?] But how can we locate that factor without lots and lots of data from dozens of games?

 

[Jayne]

I thought respawning was linked to whether there was a nice un-inhabited space for a new civ to settle in - usually an island. I guess if the original civs are killed early before most of the map has been colonized it provides a lot of places for respawning to occur. Just my theory.

 

[la fayette]

how can we locate that factor without lots and lots of data from dozens of games?

I wonder
but this reminds me of the so-called "oedo" years: many strong players had various theories in mind to explain the apparently random duration of the revolutions, and then came oedo with the very simple explanation that anyone has in mind today (the oxxx pattern).
So, tomorrow perhaps, you or me , or someone else interested...

 

[zenon]

I can add to La Fayette´s experience. I also finished the original civs in BC years and spent centuries on chasing respawns. The orange civ not only founded Carthage and Athens in remote areas but respawned another 10 times or so in the former German territory. I even killed them three times in one turn and there was still a respawn.

But I can´t submit my game. In between I was so involved in the conquest, that I forgot that restarts are on and that I needed trade and MPE. I was so angry about my own stupidity that I prefered to go back to a former save for a partial replay. The game was fun, though.

 

[Peaster]

I thought respawning was linked to whether there was a nice un-inhabited space for a new civ to settle in - usually an island. I guess if the original civs are killed early before most of the map has been colonized it provides a lot of places for respawning to occur. Just my theory.

This theory seems very reasonable. I remember somebody disagreed with it in some other thread. They thought re-spawns could still happen even on crowded maps. Even worse, they would happen in awkward places like the polar caps. I don't remember if they had any evidence of this or not.

In case anyone wants to compare - my final position had 23 cities. I had a few colonies in odd places, but didn't try to cover the map. I just did a "reveal map" and the best re-spawn areas I found were about 8-9 squares from my cities (not on islands).

BTW - Now I know why your previous avatar looked so familiar !

@zenon: "another 10 times or so" ?? That must be a record. Maybe it is time to re-open LaFayette's re-spawn thread. If you want to send me a save (or vice-versa) maybe we can find some differences in our games.

 

[A+ombomb]

I am pretty sure that restarts are heavily random if not entirely random. That's Usually why I just go for a spaceship isntead of diddling around with new civ spawns - it gives you more control over your end product.

 

[Peaster]

I am pretty sure that restarts are heavily random if not entirely random. .

Well, zenon and I have re-opened this question in LaFayette's Apolyton/Civ2/Strategy/Restarts thread. In this GOTM, LaF and zenon got 80 per cent respawn rates, but I got a 15 per cent rate. I have replayed positions from my game over 30 times now and am still under 15 per cent. So, there seem to be major non-random factor(s) at work.

If you don't mind posting your gotm45 replay again, I am still interested. Or maybe DoM can release it now.

 

[A+ombomb]

I did post that replay As soon as the day hit.

By random I mean ruled by the laws of an algorithm governed by rules outside of what you actually do in the game. There is, of course, no such thing as true randomness in the game (perhaps not even in real life, but thats for the philosophy buffs out there and not here ). So what I am saying is, I don't think anything you do during the game affects the respawn rate.
I know for a fact that you can manipulate respawns by reloading the game. I just hate dealing with respawns and added randomness in general, so I always try to circumvent that extra unknown and go for landing games. I personally feel there is very little strategic about respawning and we should always have restarts off...but I would also say we should have no huts ever and I don't think very many other people like that idea .

 

[Peaster]

A+ombomb: Thanks for reposting your save. So far, I have not been able to open it - "failed to load game. file is not a saved game". Maybe this is a civ2 version issue (I use MGE) but I'll try downloading it again, in case it got corrupted.

Could you expand on "I know for a fact that you can manipulate respawns by reloading the game." ? I tend to believe this, but it apparently takes more than just reloading. I have reloaded various gotm46 positions about 40 times now and have gotten a fairly steady 15 per cent rate. [see also solo's Apolyton report]. I suspect that starting a new game would reset the respawn rate, but haven't tested this yet.

Of course, I submitted my game before all this reloading.

I also prefer restarts off, and don't care either way about huts. I guess it's hard to avoid huts - either you remove them by making the game a scenario, or the players have to agree/remember not to tip them.

 

[A+ombomb]

I don't really know why it doesn't load up for you. I tried loading the game again from what I posted and it worked just fine for me. It might be because I use the mac version of the game? I have to rename my files in .sav format from the mac name which doesn't use sav.

Manipulate meaning you can achieve the desired result just by reloading. If respawns were based solely on what had happened during the game and what spots on the map are available, then the outcome of the respawn would always be identical, no matter how many times you reloaded. A non-identical result is why I refer to it as random.

 

[Peaster]

a+ombomb: I downloaded again with the same problem. Maybe it is a MAC/PC thing as you said. Anyway, thanks for trying.

Now I see what you mean about restarts begin random. They are like huts, battle outcomes, sabotages etc.

My theory is that when you ask civ2 to start a new game, you get a "restart rate" anywhere from 0% to 100%. It even persists after loading a save from a different game, such as a GOTM. There may be other factors involved, too, such as Jayne's crowdedness factor. There may be some over-ride rule, so that your total number of re-starts is always between 1 and 20. I've tested this enough to believe it, but not enough to say I have proof. I wonder if it seems consistent with GOTMers' experiences?

 

[A+ombomb]

Anyone have suggestions for making my game saves readable? I don't really know what else I could do, since I don't own a PC version of the game.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I play on Mac also. I have given maps to others with no problems. I have never given anyone but the Duke any game saves; and like you I change the filename to include a .sav at the end before doing so.

So I guess, this is a question for the Duke; assuming he is a windoze user. Duke, do you open our saved games (I, A+ombomb, other Mac players) and have you ever had any problems doing so?

 

[A+ombomb]

were you able to load the game ardavan?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

A+ombomb, I had not tried. I just downloaded it (Your 1ad.sav from GOTM45 spoiler thread). I will try loading it tonight and report back.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

A+ombomb, I did try it last night and it did not work.
"Failed to load game, File is not a saved game"

The problem maybe in how you uploaded it.

 

[A+ombomb]

Hmmm ok, so how do I upload it properly ?

 

[grigor]

I finished just a bit after M. LaFayette, as usual, but I was unbelievably lucky - I had ZERO RESPAWNS!!! I don't know what I did to deserve it - I played kind of fast and not very elegantly - but I was glad of it and thoroughly enjoyed the game. I never did learn Monotheism, so there was a lofty pyre of expired vet Elephants piled before the gates of Berlin. Two sabotaging dips fixed the Kyoto problem.

A+ombomb - I have to compress my Mac files before uploading, or else PC people can't handle it... I use Stuffit. See if that works for you.