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GOTM 47 Second Spoiler - entering the Industrial age

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by ainwood, Sep 24, 2005.

  1. shumble

    shumble Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    146

    That is amazing to me. I have never thought that you could get to Military tradition by 400AD, and an 820AD Conquest Victory is equally amazing to me.

    I have played this save 4 times now since submitting and the best I have managed to do is 1565AD and I was extremely proud of myself :(

    I must be doing something wrong when it comes to researching. I never seem to be able to research quickly once I get to the Middle Ages. Even when I hit the Middle Ages around 100BC, all of a sudden I get bogged down and just go extremely slow.

    How does everyone keep researching quickly through the Middle Ages?
     
  2. Redbad

    Redbad should have shaved

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    Messages:
    811
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Some things that help:

    Big population working roaded tiles or water :
    Build cities and in these cities build harbours.

    Keep lux-slider low and research-slider high:
    Build temples and import luxuries. When having 3 or more lux build markets.
    Sell techs for lux and money.

    Increase science:
    Build libraries in non-corrupt cities.
    Science specialists in corrupt cities.
    Irrigate tiles (two irrigated grasstiles make an extra science specialist possible)

    Decrease corruption:
    Build RCP-style and in half-corrupt cities build courthouses.
    Build/hurry FP for a second core.

    If I myself had done more of these things perhaps I would have reached MT somewhat faster. :sad:
     
  3. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,290
    Location:
    57°47'55"N 12°09'16"E
    @Megalou: I guess it depends a lot what your overall goal is. I'm still too much of a builder at heart, I have still to win a game by conquest. But when going for a "slow" victory, I'd rather conquer in a more controlled fashion, with lots of chances for MGLs. But I guess that's something I have to learn not to do if I want to master the military wins. :)
    I completely agree with you on the archers vs swords issue, though in this game swords were not really an option... :sad:

    @IronKnight: I only go after one civ at a time (not counting those that are too weak to fight back). I try to use several stacks if possible. Often if I have slow early units like swords and catapults I let them make up one stack, and group the faster units into one or more stacks that can cover more enemy territory faster.
     
  4. IronKnight

    IronKnight Master of Disaster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Vermont, USA
    Here's my recap:

    950 BC – Met India and the others were met shortly after
    210 BC – Declare war on India (This war is waged mostly with Archers)
    90 BC – Take Delhi & get the Great Library (Enter Middle Ages)
    270 AD – First Leader – Build FP in Delhi :)
    320 AD – Make peace with India, they only have 1 island city left
    350 AD – Declare War on France (Remaining Archers and new Horsemen & Swordsmen)
    410 AD – Second Leader – Build Sun Tzu’s – Begin Golden Age :)
    680 AD – Take Paris, get Pyramids, own all of former French Peninsula, they’re left with a few scattered jungle towns
    820 AD – Declare war on Aztecs, they are quite large (Wage war with Knights)
    1120 AD – Third Leader – Build Knight Army
    1130 AD – India Gone
    1240 AD – Aztecs Gone
    1255 AD – France Gone, Declare war on Celts & Arabs
    1280 AD – Fourth Leader – Knight Army
    1350 AD – Fifth Leader – Calvary Army
    1370 AD – Arabs Gone
    1535 AD – Celts Gone…Firaxis = 4101, Jason = 7332

    First Conquest victory in GOTM, so I’m happy with that, but it really took me a long time to get it. I think my biggest problem was setting up 2 productive cores on the main continent. Until I had that going I was forced to shuttle units over from my starting island, which wasn’t able to produce Horsemen, Swordsmen, Knights, etc…only archers and spearmen. Looking back I should have declared war on India sooner. I also seem to have slowed down from 680 AD to about 1100 AD. I’m guessing that was around the time I moved my Capitol to Paris.
     
  5. Shirak

    Shirak Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2005
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Hertfordshire
    WOW, i'm soooo humbled. I finished the game but didn't win.
    I guess the main problem was not decaring war on india soon enough.
    I did go to war with them and france but never managed to hold a city for long enough and twice i miss-clicked on 'raise city' instead of install 'govener'
    so my invading armies were left v vunerable.
    I tried to open two or three mini invasions at the same time on a single continent but it was all to no avail :blush:
    I ended up trading well and built wonders later on but never really took hold of the situation.
    Live and learn eh, i'm ready for the next one though.....great stuff
     
  6. klarius

    klarius ... !

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,200
    Location:
    Germany
    Predator PtW

    I settled southwest. Build warrior-granary.
    Build an 8 town RCP 4 ring.

    Got to map making in 1275BC. 4 galleys going out.
    When I found India, I had to note that I was quite backward.
    They had map making, philosophy and contact with France, Aztecs and Arabia.
    I couldn't do any useful trades.
    Even with literature in 1050BC I couldn't get to complete tech parity.

    1000BC:



    Math in 925BC did get me ahead.
    710BC saw the completion of the Lighthouse in Leipzig.
    Republic was researched in 590BC. Got a 6-turn anarchy.

    I had started the archer war on India just before, so that got a bit dicey.

    470BC Indians buy in the celts (I had alliance with everybody else). Nice war happiness and no danger.

    Entered MA in 410BC got monotheism. Research to feudalism-chivalry.

    270BC we capture Delhi, so we are all set for resources.

    70BC France declares. No good idea of Joan. My forces are just running out of Indian targets.

    30AD free palace jump to Bangalore. No leaders in the Indian war.

    70AD Arabs build great library in Mecca. Ouch, that doesn't look good for a golden age soon.

    90AD first leader in battle of Avignon. Builds Sun Tsu.

    320AD France destroyed. Last city gives another leader -> Leonardo's (I had researched up to Invention for this case then stopped research)

    340AD finally removed the last Indian town.

    410AD small RoP rape on Aztecs. We get pyramids in Technotitlan and 3 more cities.

    490AD Aztecs destroyed. Finally peace with celts, to be able to RoP rape them.

    520AD War on celts. Going slow. His pikes and gallics have a lot luck against my knights.

    530AD War on Arabs also.

    550AD Golden age. A leader builds Sistine and we own Great library in Mecca.

    580AD Domination victory.

     
  7. ionimplant

    ionimplant Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, MI
    open, goal: space

    after eliminating India and creating a somehow prosperous second core around Delhi (forbidden city rushed with a GL), i was determined to play a peaceful game so that the AI may contribute a little to research. however i was let down by AI. they not only didn't contribute much (1 useful tech if i remember correctly), both France and Aztec sneaked attacked me once. fortunately the AI must be burdened with all their ancient units, horseman and middleval infantry were the main attacking force even when i got knights and cavalry. infurated by their stupidity and ineptituid, i reduced france and aztec to only a few cities. Arab later suffered a similar fate. it's really easy to kill all those ancient units with cavalry. having a lot of trouble to maintain a 4-turn research pace although all science wonders were built in Lepizberg(sorry for the spelling).
     
  8. Paul#42

    Paul#42 flyball chaser

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,474
    Location:
    Hamburg
    open. going for some fast victory.

    Realizing my lack of iron and horses I marched through India in a hurry. I had prepared Berlin for free Palace jump (all the way down from size 6), Leipzig already had the FP. The turn I wanted to rush the last settler, I had just sold all buildings, I got a leader in my Indian war. So I kept Berlin, rushed the palace with a leader and failed to do the dirty trick one more time :rolleyes: :lol:

    India made a nice second core and I continued to destroy french with rop-rape. I captured Aztec Pyramides, built Leo's and Sun Tzu. Stopped Research after invention and astronomy, and built lots of knights. Having no lighthouse forced old Germany to produce lots of warriors for a long-long time until astronomy. However, I did not plan to take the lighthouse from the Arabs and guess what - I took it with the very last city in the game :blush:

    Around 800 AD a fierce barbarian marched into unprotected Tenochtitlan and destroyed the Pyramides!! :eek: These barbarians are Philistines!! :aargh:

    I triggered conquest victory in 850 AD well under domination limit.
    Jason Score over 9.7k.
     
  9. tR1cKy

    tR1cKy taking over the world

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    Klarius, you were about to win by conquest.
     
  10. IronKnight

    IronKnight Master of Disaster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Vermont, USA
    Good tips, thanks. How much trading do you do? In this game did you bee-line right to Military Tradition?
     
  11. PaperBeetle

    PaperBeetle Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,660
    Location:
    London
    End of an Age
    The Ancient Age finishes in 350bc with Germany riding the Glibray down the tech tree. I am still stuck on my island. but I have a plan to get off, and it involves India making some room for me. Should I get straight over there with archers, or wait until I have longbows? Longbows aren't so far away, as I got Engineering free. I aslo need Leonardo to trigger my golden age, so I choose the longbow route. Thanks to the Glibrary, I have plenty of cash to upgrade my archers. Invention comes to me in 430ad, and I am ready to invade.

    I Am Playing Predator, Right?
    I dow on Gandhi and get some of the other guys involved too. My combined arms stack of 14 units lands on the small peninsula nearest to Germany, and awaits the tidal waves of Predator troops... and waits. There is no tidal wave. How disappointing. I was hoping for more leader-fishing oportunities. I start my own attack; Madras falls in 460ad, and a fresh load of troops lands next to Delhi (much quicker than going overland), which falls in 530ad. This battle earns me my first leader, who forms an army. I do see a couple of elephants dashing around, particularly during the seige of Delhi, but without their C3C bonus hit point, they're nothing special. Of course, until I take Delhi's iron, I don't have any units that can defend properly, but I don't mind the losses - at least my units are cheap.

    Moving House
    I conquer the Indian heartland in leisurely fashion, while the Aztecs move down the peninsula, rolling India up from the other side. My main focus is preparing for the palace jump; several towns are founded, and a host of 40 maces is amassed in Delhi (I built axes over in Germany and then upgraded them in India - not having the Lighthouse isn't so bad after all). The Indians are destroyed in 720ad, and three turns later I am finally ready to abandon the old capital. My palace jumps over to India, leaving my 20k city to look after my old core.
    While I am concentrating on the Indian situation, the Celts succumb to the temptation of the jungle island to their southeast. I have two towns there, expecting to find some resources later on. Maybe Brennus is thinking along the same lines? He ROP rapes me in 690ad, capturing one of my towns. I recapture it in 740ad, sink a couple of his galleys, and see no further offensives from him; we don't have any serious ships yet, so he is no real threat to me.

    Right. I Am Playing Predator
    After I have finished using my mace mob for palace jumping, I start shipping them up to the Celtic island. The Celtic saltpeter and iron are clse to each other, by the sea, so I land in this area. At first I try just holding the iron, fishing for leaders, but soon decide it will be easier to occupy nearby Richborough. The town falls in 840ad, flips back in 860ad, and is immediately recaptured. Brennus has a slightly more convincing military than Gandhi did, and my forces up there are getting whittled away. I give Brennus peace in 890ad, and start to reinforce Richborough. I wait the full 20 turns, and redeclare in 1090ad. This is mainly about leader-fishing, and by 1200ad (the start of the Industrial), my only territorial gain is the Celtic saltpeter, assimiliated by Richborough's culture.

    What about 20k?
    Well, things have been going pretty well in 20k. After Leonardo started my golden age (610ad), I built the Epic by hand. A second leader gained against India rushed Michaelangelo, leaving no wonder builds outstanding (Sun Tzu went to the Aztec in 410ad). I line up Bach next, but keep putting it off in favour of other projects; Copernicus in 900ad and Shakespeare in 1090ad. The AI manage to stay just a step or two behind me in tech though, and towards the end of the Medieval, they all have builds going on both Smith and Magellan. Can I pull Newton out of the cascade? Then in 1170ad, my Celtic leader-fishing produces results! I spend about 1000g investigating all the world's wonder builds, run the numbers, and decide I can have my cake and eat it. I rush Bach and start on Newton. Will the wonders fall as I have planned? The answer to that question lies in the Industrial Age...

    20k events, F5 style
    3050bc... 20k founded
    1575bc... Colossus
    1400bc... Temple
    590bc..... Great Library
    530bc..... Library

    350bc..... The Medieval
    230bc..... Forbidden Palace
    150bc..... Revolution, 6 turns, rerolled for 5
    50bc...... Colosseum
    280ad..... Hanging Gardens
    300ad..... Cathedral
    600ad..... Leonardo (starts the golden age)
    610ad..... Michaelangelo
    680ad..... Heroic Epic
    730ad..... University
    890ad..... Copernicus
    1080ad... Shakespeare
    1170ad... Bach

    1200ad... Industrial Age, 5690 culture, 77cpt
     
  12. ts64

    ts64 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Messages:
    52
    To answer some of Shumble's and Ironknight's questions:

    First of all, I am convinced that my result's in this game will not be anywhere near the fastest finisher's for conquest victory. But besides that, I am quite satisfied with my results, even if I am sure that there are plenty of room for improvements. And I had great fun playing it. So this is, as I see it, the key components to what I achieved.

    1. I settled in a good position and managed to get a 4-turn settler factory up.

    2. I decided to go for RCP4, this enabled me to have: Berlin size 12, 7 rcp4 sites at size 12 and an 8th rcp4 site size 8 but only 7 workable tiles.

    3. I built a lot of workers that improved the land and after that joined the core citys to quickly get them up to size. To add to this, in most of my remote towns I only built workers that I ferried home and joined to core cities.

    4. I researched Literature after Mapmaking and built library's in all core citys. I also built aqueducts where needed and marketplaces to boost income after I shut down research. No other happy buildings. After that straight to MT, unfortunately I got Monotheism as my free MA-tech, if not I might have gained a few turns.

    5. I built The Great Lighthouse

    6. I built Leonardos workshop

    7. When going for fast research there are many ways to do it. In this game where I was aiming for a military win, I didn't want to sell any tech's to the AI's, hoping that they would stay as backwards as possible. It's better to fight spears then muskets with your cavs.:D

    So to fund my research in the middle ages I took out loans from the AI's as soon as they had more than 17 gold. At monarch difficulty you will get 17 gold for 1 gpt. So I was able to run research with a quite big deficit for most of my way to MT. At most I paid around 40 gpt for the loans, I had to slow it down in the end since I was planning to declare war when I reached MT and since I didn't want to ruin my reputation, I needed to have paid my debts to them when I declared.

    8. Ok, now I know MT and I want to do a fast conquest. For that I need as many cavs as possible. To get many you can either build them straight up, cash-rush them (best done with short rushes). To shortrush in an 10 spt city, if you build 10s - disconnect salpeter - connect iron - rush a knight - connect salpeter - change to cav and build a cav, you have to pay 240g. Or do as I did, disconnect salpeter (if you know chivalry you have to disconnect iron to) and build horses for upgrade. When you have leo's you only have to pay 50 gold for each upgrade. To show how effective this is

    500AD I had 12 cavs
    600AD I had 32 cavs
    700AD I had 60 cavs
    800AD I had 106 cavs

    Of course on this map you also need a lot of galleys to ferry your cavs to the battles.

    When you have this many it's just to attack and there is no need for any defensive units or any artillery, if you are fighting at most rifles. If the enemy has infantry you might need artillery or your losses will be very heavy.

    This is of course not something I have invented myself, but techniques I have learned by reading for example spoilers from other C/GOTM and SGOTM.
     
  13. PaperBeetle

    PaperBeetle Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,660
    Location:
    London
    And what does the 20k graph look like at the start of the Industrial?

    - Nata is stilly comfortably ahead in culture. He's got a better cpt too; how can we catch him?
    - tR1cKy can always be relied to not get any great leaders, no matter how militaristic his civ ;)
    - Niklas is storming through the tech tree at a furious pace. Will he spend the last couple of centuries twiddling his thumbs with no culture to build?
    - PaperBeetle is creeping through the tech tree at a glacial pace. A late entry into the Industrial makes his culture look good on the graph though :D
     

    Attached Files:

  14. tR1cKy

    tR1cKy taking over the world

    Joined:
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    Gender:
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    Location:
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    As you will read when the final spoiler is on, things got even worse in the Industrial :(

    Yeah, i got an incredibly amount of bad luck with leaders in the GotM i submitted, expecially with militaristic civs! OTOH, in the replayed GotM 43, that you can see in my sig (Rising Sun) i got no less that 15 leaders. Go figure. :gripe:

    Anyway, this is my 1st serious attempt in 20k, it's not a big deal if i end up dead last - actually, i could earn my 1st award, a shield!!! :crazyeye:
     
  15. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
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    10,290
    Location:
    57°47'55"N 12°09'16"E
    On the contrary, it is those of you who have a slow tech pace that will twiddle your thumbs while trying desperately to push through those dreary IA. ;)
    Fission enables 6cpt, Computers 5cpt, Miniaturizaton 4cpt, Genetics 6cpt and Space Flight 2cpt. Total 23cpt. I entered the IA 20 turns before Nata. If I get each of those wonders 20 turns earlier, that's a bonus of 430 culture. And I plan to gain even more tech ground through both IA and MT, so it will probably be quite a lot more than that. I don't think it will be enough though, but I will certainly not be so far behind as one might be fooled to think from your graph. :)
     
  16. Genghis069

    Genghis069 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 31, 2005
    Messages:
    32
    Location:
    De Pere, WI, USA
    AA spoiler: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3117061&postcount=56

    Goal: Diplomatic (space fall back)

    Indian War (30 AD - 330 AD)

    We drop 20 archers on the SW tip of India and capture Delhi and the Pyramids in 70 AD. The Colossus was also taken in Lahore. We've got all but 2 major cities by 310 AD but the final attack falls short (against pikemen on a hilled city) and we accept peace for a remaining city. No GL's.

    I immediately revolt and draw a 4-turn Anarchy for Republic. From that point on, I buy a large amount of the MA tech thanks to steals like Monotheism for 83g. All AI are gracious or polite except the Aztecs. Ongoing trade of Spices to Celts for Furs greatly helps happiness issues.

    Aztec War #1 (940 AD - 1315 AD)

    The Aztecs send 4 random units at the exposed city I subjugated from India and declare war. I pay the Arabs 131g and 6gpt to join in. In 980, I research Metallurgy and get Education and an alliance from France in trade. The following turn, India, who absolutely hates me, is more than happy to join in against the Aztecs. The Celts follow suit in 1080. World against Aztecs => perfect Diplo. potential.

    In the end, I capture and keep one city and the others each get a small piece of Aztec extremities. By the end of the war, I finally have Military Trad and was getting a few cavalry to the front lines, but peace seemed good while I could get it. No GL's. Trading spices to the allies and buying techs until Magnet and ToG purchases push me into the IA in 1290 AD. Medicine freebie pays off and then some.

    The plan from here is to continue to abuse the world hatred of the Aztecs and pick off the weak and unruly as necessary.
     
  17. MiniMe

    MiniMe For Glory

    Joined:
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    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    I settled 1 NW since I noticed the fresh water close by. I build a couple of warriors and then a settler to go get the cow. Then a granary. I use RCP3 and RCP5.

    Regarding research I go first for pottery and then mapmaking since I discover we are all alone. First boats sail the seas around 1200BC meeting the Indians, France and Aztecs just before end of QSC.

    QSC stats:
    10 towns
    2 granaries
    3 barracks
    6 workers
    3 archers
    2 warriors
    1 galley

    I see we have no resources so I quickly prepare an archer batallion to kick some peaceful gandhi butt. I land my forces in 750BC close to Madras and get a leader in the very first elite kill with a barb trained archer. I take 2 more Indian core cities (including capital) and get 2 others in a peace deal. So the ring around Delhi is mine. I build FP.

    Having seriously pruned Indians without heavy losses I set my eyes on France. By 310BC I have all French core cities except their new capital Orleans. I give them peace for 2 towns.

    Republic is established in 350BC after a 7 turn anarchy!

    Hmmm ... who is next? I decide to rush some more boats and set out for Arabia. My forces consist at this time of a handful remaining archers and fresh horses. Arabs have not yet connected iron and my goal is to prevent them from doing so. For a quick conquest it is also important to get to furthest away opponent as quickly as possible since this is what determines the end date. Attack is successful and although I loose all my archers pretty quickly in some bad luck attacks, I manage to take all arab core cities, and give them peace for a couple of more towns. Peace is established around 300AD.

    In the mean time I have discovered Chivalry and I have for centuries built up a second great attack wave worthy of opposing the aztecs. Upgrades are expensive so its a happy mix of horsemen and knights that I send out to war. I take my first town around 250AD. The aztec cannot resist and in 360AD they are reduced to some small cities that will be mine soon enough.

    In the meantime I have been secretely preparing a ROP rape of the celts (while mopping up the remains of Indian, French and Arab empires). The rape is being executed in 410AD, and although taking some cities it was not the massive success I was looking for. Had some bad RNG and the civ god had obviously decided that the era of the horseman was over. I lost many!! But of course the celts cannot resist the ever growing power of Bismarck and join the ranks of the dead for a CONQUEST VICTORY in 450AD.

    Quite happy with the logistics of my conquest. The biggest challenge in this game was to get all forces to where they needed to be in order for all of them to be as effective as possible. It was only towards the very end that I have forces that were far away from the front. I am very pleased I decided to attack the Arabs as early as I did.
     
  18. ControlFreak

    ControlFreak Not An Addict, Really

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    2,457
    Location:
    Western Ohio
    I'll post more details during the week but Megalou wanted some dates.

    Let me put it this way...no contest you win.:worship:

    I was still researching Invention at min science (my mistake) in 810AD. If you're in the Industrial Age 400years earlier than that, I concede.

    My only hope is that you have a bunch of >4turn Industrial techs to research.
     
  19. Megalou

    Megalou Thez worlds are not enuf

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2002
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    1,315
    Location:
    Sweden
    :sad: Don't people think about the lesser awards anymore?
     
  20. tao

    tao Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2002
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    2,831
    Location:
    Germany
    1.29 [civ3mac] Open

    I thought I played a good game - until I read about Klarius' domination and MiniMe's conquest.

    I researched up to map making and literature. I had all contacts 630BC. I built Great Library (650BC) and Great Lighthouse (410BC). 430BC I went to war on India using cats and archers and organizing a dogpile. Madras gave horses, Karachi the harbor to ship them home. Then the Indians completed The Great Wall in the small town of Bangalore north of Delhi. I was barely able to conquer it, but abandoned the city when strong troops aproached. Delhi completed The Pyramids 150BC and was conquered 50BC. Great Leader Barbarossa built the Forbidden Palace starting my 2nd core.

    130AD Great Library gave feudalism and republic (5 turns of anarchy) and afterwards I started researching first chivalry (290AD) and then up to military tradition (550AD) while walking over the rest of India, France, Aztecs, Arabs and Keltoi.
    Conquest is announced 800AD with 9733 Jason points.
     

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