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gotm 58 spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by bruderpetrus, Nov 4, 2005.

  1. bruderpetrus

    bruderpetrus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    berlin
    wanted to try out OCC but got fixed on the story an decided to try fundamentalismic gameplay.
    so i started working out my "small island" as money support. went for "great libary" and manged to build a bridge head on the continent (?). also got an andvanced tribe from a hut. made me able to make a second wave settling and working out my first army.
    and with that i got stuck.

    seems harder than i thought winning a battle with same troup quality.
     
  2. EmperorGandalf

    EmperorGandalf Wizard

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    65
    In my game it is now in late 1800s. I have conquered russians and allied with greeks, but am somewhat stuck now. just recently i have been able to get to the next ocean, but its hard! (most places the ocean is divided by land from top to bottom it seems!) I have fundamentalism, lotsa units, and even under that gov i am getting a tech every 8 turns (if i was a democracy, like i usually do, that would probalby become my usual 2 turns/tech)
    Interesting. a real challenge this month. of course its always a little difficult, but this is reallly tough
     
  3. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Sep 26, 2004
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    1,295
    This is a pretty interesting map for conquest players like myself. Maybe the main decision is whether to conquer in the obvious order, ABCDEF, or to race for the East without stopping to fight, which is what I am trying to do. At 1AD, I have only conquered 1-2 cities, but have explored to longitude 180 (about 40% of the way?).

    Some players have said this is a bad map for trade. That topic is not my strong suit, but it seems to me the long distances should provide good bonuses, so I am trying it. Almost have to, since there won't be a whole lot of AI tribute for a while, and science would probably slow down too much without it.
     
  4. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,951
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    I came down with flu over the weekend and as I was not good for much else I spent most of the time playing this GOTM. I have played to 1840 and I am currently busy making my space ship.

    First of all, congradulations to the map designer. What an original idea. I love it. This map is so unusual and so very challenging. I wish we could see the map apriori though so everyone would pick their strategy accordingly. I happened to pick the prefect strategy for me, but not everyone may be so lucky.

    As I said in the GOTM58 thread after careful consideration of what Duke said and the shape of the map I decided to follow a peaceful isolationist landing strategy.

    First I explored the island with my settlers. First hut gave Currency. A unit, even a slow one, would have helped a lot more. Second hut gave None chariot; but by then the island was fully explored. Finding a perfect spot for OCC tempted me. I stopped and reflected for a while. Then I decided I could try OCC any time; it is a long while since I have had a chance to play isolationist peaceful strategy. (Actually I have done it only once, on my HaftJazire map which later became GOTM53. This map kind of reminded me of that one.)

    I founded my capital in -3600 at the only 4 special site. I quickly built 3 more cities around the island that covered all but 3 available land tiles with very little overlap. This was done by -1950. I built a city on the remaining land much later in +1200 as it needed to be built on a tile which was jungle and converting those takes so long.

    I went for Monarchy right away and got it in -3100. I switched to Republic in -325 and Democracy in 1100. The tech path was interesting as I usually skip techs like Horseback riding and Warrior code hoping to get them from my rivals which I inevitably do. This time I had to be very careful to not skip those mindlessly.

    I did make a trireme early on to expose sea tiles of my coastal cities. Once I did that, I was going to get a unit and send it marching along the South pole for exploration and huts. Then I found out that there is no South Pole! I thought from black clicking that there is no land nearby so as soon as I went to Republic I disbanded my trireme. Black clicking was actually misleading here as the nearby land mass was #1 and much closer than I thought though I still could not reach it with a Trireme.

    At this point in the game, I decided that I am not going to bother building the Lighthouse and would trade internally instead. First trade route was established in -425. I managed to deliver quite a few demanded caravans to my surprise. For a while I was getting unsatiable demand for Hides in Philadelphia and ample supplies in Washington. I did nine such trades for an average payout of 100. That was sweet.

    I only had 2 encounters with sea barbarians neither of which caused any casualties or rewards.

    Not having to worry about rivals and talking to them all the time, made this game go very fast even compared to OCC. It would have gone faster if every other turn I did not have to go through a few messages about my rivals changing their capital. This went on for a VERY long time.

    Russians showed up in 960 and landed an elephant next to Boston which was defended by a single caravan. Fortunately they were cordial to begin with and after two tech gifts they were worshipful. We agreed to peace and map exchange but they turned down my offer of alliance. They fortified their troops in my land afterwards but removed them when I asked them to. They showed up once more much later but by then I could see them coming and covered my coast with units. They turned back. I have not had any other contacts with my rivals.

    The episode with Russians scared me enough to beef up my defenses which were meager at the time. Eventually every city got a vet Rifleman, city walls, and a coastal fortress.

    Apollo was built in 1826. So far I am the only participant in the space race. I have no idea how technologically advanced my rivals are.

    Two regrets I have about this game. One is not getting 3 trade routes in Washington quickly. This was very stupid. I was concentrating on demanded comodities. I should have just established trade routes and worry about that later. The other regret is building Atlanta so late. I could have made it earlier.
     
  5. golem

    golem Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2001
    Messages:
    210
    Location:
    Praha, Czech rep.
    After long time I decide to play this GOTM. It is great. I have built UN 1600 AD and see the world - oh God it is huge. I have thought it is half size than it is. It will take me a lot of work to see first Spanish city in the east.

    So - go east !:p :p :p
     
  6. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,295
    I agree - this map is great! A new kind of challenge for EC players, at least.

    Spoiler :


    I black-clicked quite a bit to get some idea of the general shape, but I lose patience quickly, and the double "1" and "10" muddied the waters.
    I've played from 1ad to 560ad since my last post; conquered the Russians, started harrassing the Greeks and Mongols, and located the next civ-land [Babs, I guess ?]. But the turns are getting slooow. Recently, Navigation + Magellan have been a big help.

    Still not sure about trade as an aid to EC. It has helped science, but it has cost almost as much gold as it has brought in (especially after Invention). Maybe with a new govt, it will pay off more.

    I stupidly rushed about 20 horsemen, hoping they would promote to ellies with Leo's (nope). I can still research Chivalry to get Knights, at least, but there are other techs I want more.

     
  7. golem

    golem Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2001
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    210
    Location:
    Praha, Czech rep.
    1812 ad - Four civilizations destroyed - now I am fighting with Vikings. Spanish continent is still 160 squares to the east.
    I am very curious who will win the green star - I bet it won't be before 1800AD.
     
  8. grigor

    grigor Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    354
    Peaster at 500AD is about where I am at 1000AD. He is a good bet to finish before 1500AD, but I am sure he is going all out for a pre-1000 finish.

    I still think the green star will be a spaceship.

    Spoiler :
    Bruderpetrus had part of the right idea and Peaster another (perhaps Peaster had both) - the game will last thru Democracy when SoL will give Fundy), so building up the home civ for science in the early game is crucial. That includes enough turns in Republic to build the population up to a respectable trading amount. On the other hand, the transportation is daunting, and requires ports on the east coast of each continent. Getting started on that early is a big time saver. The first port city could well come from a hut, which is a good bet in any case, and highly likely if no colonies are built on the first continent.

    I made a bad mistake by wiping out the Russians - they could have become a reliable source of quick 200g deliveries. Usually I am looking for beakers, but this game needs constant gold for infrastructure and rushbuying in the new port cities.

    This analysis is all very well in hindsight, but I found it difficult to even frame the questions at the start. It is not the best warmonger but the best strategist who will win this month.
     
  9. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    @Grigor - I agree with all your points. I let the Russians live until they no longer wanted my goods (evil grin), and just switched to soft Fundy as you predicted (approx 600AD).

    I don't expect to finish before 1000AD. There is a slim chance, but I haven't even found the last two civs yet. There are other problems, too. The Zulus built the Great Wall [but metallurgy should cancel it soon]. Also, MPE sits safely in Athens: size 6, the capital, with city walls and pikemen... and they refuse to declare war!

    A less serious problem is that Civ2 has run out of American city names, so I am forced to use silly names like "Newer York" and "Los Mongeles".
     
  10. grigor

    grigor Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
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    354
    I always use "New" for the second round of city names.
    New New York - one of my faves.:p
     
  11. geofelt

    geofelt Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    222
    It's 1952, and I have just destroyed the vikings spaceship. I have some more work to do with the vikings, but I can bribe them easily if I can get them all before they go to democracy. Then it's the spanish. The vikings built the apollo program, so I can see the world, and it will be a challenge to conquer all by 2020.
     
  12. Sharkbait

    Sharkbait Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    127
    Location:
    New Zealand
    I made a mess of this. Started to go for the spaceship but missed most of the happiness wonders so wasn't far ahead. Had to change to take out the Russians via a bit of nuclear war, then clean up and launch. Good fun and will play the map again going purely for conquest.:)
     
  13. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    At 800AD: I finally found the Vikings and can probably take them out by 1000AD. Except that I still haven't contacted the Spanish, which is the top priority now. Industrializtion + transports were supposed to speed things up, but my 80 caravels didn't upgrade (I have to pay more attention to how Leo's works some day).

    By my standards, the turns are getting really long... managing about 90 cities, 50 vans, 80 boats takes me over an hour. But the combat has not been difficult, since no AI has gotten gunpowder yet (AFAIK) and I've only seen a couple of city walls.
     
  14. ElephantU

    ElephantU Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
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    Location:
    Phila PA
    Despite my warnings I decided to try a OCC (call me a masochist...). Marco Polo was top priority, and with it (and being Pathetic) I got six alliances pretty quickly. A couple of the civs were not doing well so I pumped them with defensive and growth techs, while milking everyone for gifts of gold. I had to build LightHouse to get three trade routes to Moscow, but once I started growing two of the three supplied commodities changed and I could send over the occasional caravan for 1-turn techs. The end-game was a little dicey because several civs got NucFission and I had no way of sabotaging any Manhattan Projects (my usual defense against AI nukes), but they were more concerned with happiness and production. I saw little tech trading or wars between them throughout the game, which was comforting. My spaceship landed in the late 1700s with six Enthusiastic alliances still intact. I even had some Future Techs.
     
  15. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Elephant - That sounds like a pretty good result for OCC on this map. And you even seem to be in the lead for a green star ! (but don't count your chickens yet)
     
  16. geofelt

    geofelt Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
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    222
    This was a good,long tough game. I finally eliminated the spanish after they almost completed the manhattan project --twice. I finished in 1970 and could have grown the civ to huge numbers, but I figured that it would be too tedious.
     
  17. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    At 900AD: I have the Spanish map and a ship-chain spanning most of the world. Spain has 13 cities spread out over a lot of terrain. A 1000 AD conquest still seems unlikely, but not impossible.

    I haven't attacked the Vikings yet, but they only have 5 cities, accessible by sea and canals. They don't know it yet, but they are building Cope's for me. The Greeks, Mongols and Zulus are trade slaves. The Greeks recently founded a new city, location unknown.
     
  18. Carrot

    Carrot Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
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    Location:
    Sweden
    1360 launch (15:3:1) after a less than optimal EL-game. The starting island was settled early with SSC on 4-special spot and five helpers and it actually seemed promising. Alas, not having MPE hurt more than I had imagined as you normally get 5-6 useful techs in an era where techs are 5 or more turns apart. Add to that all the techs you could usually skip and the extra carrying cost and delay will be substantial. I even contemplated biulding the Library in this one... :eek:

    Setting Lighthouse as an early goal was the way to go, as having the nearest continent as 1 left black-clicking useless. Got some good trade going with the Russians and a few colonies established before 1AD. Wonder building was on track and then it hit me. Supreme with no way of gifting the purple civ... No wonder research seemed harder than usual. A SSC providing ~1500 beakers and techs still at 2 or even 3 turns! I ended up using more caravans for trade and not building up a sufficient number for space ship parts and had to pay for it in the end.

    It has been a nice challenge and if anything convinced me even more of the value of MPE. The entire game I kept all helpers at size 2-3 and only built nine of them. I'm still not sure of that part, though. A more expansive strategy or bigger helpers? It will slow down the early game a bit, but may be worth it in the end.
     
  19. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Carrot - Interesting explanation about why you need MPE for EL games. I suppose you progressed faster than me in science, but maybe you'd like to compare notes. I used an expansive strategy, building mainly settlers, vans and boats until about 700AD. No libraries or SSC, very few techs from AI contact, with the science bar usually set to the minimum (0% since I got SoL/Fundy). Basically, all my science came from trade bonuses.

    At 900AD, I have 45 techs, and 45 vans in motion. About 130 cities. I've probably averaged 1 tech per 2 turns for the last 1000 years (getting approx 200-300 beakers per van, about 3 vans per turn (guessing)). IMO you could get 1 tech per turn after about 200AD by modifying this strategy a bit. Since I play for conquest, science was not my top priority, and I probably don't handle trade especially well (I forget what a "helper" is, for example). I gave only a few techs to the Mongols, not including gunpowder.

    EDIT: After spending most of the evening on this GOTM, I have played one more turn! I finally realized that a shipchain of transports = awesome speed + power. It's early 920AD, I've razed Madrid, and 1000AD looks attainable. Though I may spend a few extra turns on wonders + republic + growth.
     
  20. Carrot

    Carrot Chieftain

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    Location:
    Sweden
    Peaster - Well, science wasn't exactly slow, from 1AD to 1200AD (60 turns) I got 45 techs (San-Sup, Democracy est in 25BC). After Automobile undemanded freights from my SSC payed ~600g for 1 turn deliveries and +1000g if I sought out demand. The problem was that science cost was 2000-3000 beakers per tech, due to being so far ahead of my key civ. When I finally dropped to Mighty, from building space ship parts and using up freights, and was able to gift the orange civ, it cut science costs by more than half! My point being that if I had been able to gift the key civ the whole time, my SSC plus deliveries could have gotten me one, or even two, techs per turn in that same era. That translates into roughly 15 turns or a 1060AD launch.

    In the end game, from Flight onwards when your SSC no longer benefits from Colossus, I got a bit desperate and started delivering helper freights for beakers alone. Remember that a freight is worth 200g, the cost of buying 50 shields towards a wonder, so deliveries paying less are not worth it. Just to keep up the tech rate I made several deliveries for 100-120g, ultimately a bad decision I think.

    I keep short logs and will attach it, however I don't keep track of science costs or deliveries so I can only give rough numbers here. 1AD techs were at 768b and 1000AD at 2552b, but they eventually rose to around 3500b.

    As for helpers, they are cities used to support the SSC building caravans for wonders, supporting settlers, sustaining ship chains etc. In the end they also build your space ship parts.
     

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