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GOTM132 Greece - First Spoiler. Changed government and all contacts.

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by mad-bax, Mar 7, 2014.

  1. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    GOTM132 Greece - First Spoiler. Changed government and all contacts.

    This thread is for discussing the early part of the game to the point where you have changed government and you have met all the opposing tribes.

    Please keep maps to less than 20 X 20 tiles centered on your start position.

    The sponsored Victory condition is conquest. So how's that going? :)
     
  2. greatbeyond

    greatbeyond King

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    I moved 1N and settled on the Dyes. Hopefully the instant happiness would make up for the less than perfect starting spot.

    Production was Warrior, Hoplite, Settler, Archer, Archer, Hoplite, Settler, then Swordsmen started coming online. Expansion slowed because I was intent on preventing Rome from hooking up it's iron which was adjacent to it's second city location. Thus military was given preference over expansion. Of course I settled my third city directly on the Iron a few squares east of the starting point.

    Research was set to IW and a good thing it was. It didn't take long to meet Emperor Caesar and picture the Legionaries coming to make a housecall.

    After IW I met our half of the AIs and traded around without giving away IW. I then went to Literature thinking perhaps going for the Great Library so I wouldn't have to research while making war but changed my mind when I saw how quick the tech pace was going to be. I then went to Math, then Currency. About this time I met the other half of the world, made trades and IIRC most of us were in the middle ages by 1200BC. A very fast research game appeared to be in store. I got Mono for free and the others got Engineering but wouldn't trade. Around 0AD I have researched Feudalism, traded and ended up working on Astro.

    War: Rome was the first target, a couple of Archers and a Warrior stole two workers and kept their iron from being hooked up. Then Swordsmen started in and before too long Rome was history. I looked around to see which of my neighbors didn't have iron and chose the Russians. Eventually I settled for peace after leaving them with just two cities. During this, I declared on Lincoln who had sent a Settler to the former Roman areas. This war netted a few Workers without getting too far away from our own lands. Before this was over I declared on the Ottomans who again sent Settlers over to claim OUR lands. NOT on my watch! More workers were gained as well as two former Ottoman cities. Spain and the Mongols also came under attack around this time. Which really consisted of the initial seizure of a few workers and then a fake war with a few proxies keeping them busy. China was the last one I attacked before this cutoff. Most of the time I have been at war with 3 to 4 AIs.

    Production is slow and I fear this one is going to take awhile to get to conquest.
     
  3. tR1cKy

    tR1cKy taking over the world

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    Settled N on dyes. Athens produced 3 warriors followed by a settler. I dared to pop a hut in the very beginning and i got a 4th warrior, which was very useful to explore and meet some AS but eventually soccumbed to the enemy. That unnamed hero will be remembered forever in the tales of the ancient Greeks :crazyeye:

    As anticipated i went for a min run on Writing. Meanwhile, contacts and trades netted me not only Pottery but also all the 1st tier techs and 4 very useful slaves.

    As the 1st settler was ready, i had to decide how and where to build my core cities. There are 3 food bonuses in the surroundings and missing any of them would be a failure. My choice went on RCP4 for two reasons: firstly, it let you include the north cow directly with a city instead of relying on further settling or expansion; second, it bears superior locations overall.

    Here's the detailed plan: city 2 had to be placed NWx3-W, because roading up to there was faster and already half done, and it would produce 2 more workers followed by a granary, while Athens would perform a 2nd round of 3 warriors + settler; city 3 would be built SEx4 (coast, river, grassland cow) and produce a granary as well; city 4 would be placed Nx2-NW, to harness the 2nd cow, and focus on unit production instead.

    With this plan i would benefit of two 6-turns setter factories, with is even more powerful than one single 4-turner. The downside is the long long time to set up all this, and in the meanwhile i had to struggle with a tiny empire, with the possibility of being overwhelmed by a stronger and aggressive neighbour.

    At the end everything went well, but it took a war with Rome to avoid being beaten on city 3. They were still OCC, but instead of settling around the capital they decided to travel a long way to screw up my planned RCP. Fortunately, their settler was escorted by an archer instead of a spearman and i had enough warriors around to kill the escort and capture two precious slaves. Of course i sued for peace as soon as i could.

    In 2110 BC Writing was completed as a monopoly and i could trade for Iron Working, Math and all the remaining contacts of the landmass. Now the strange behaviour of Rome could be partly explained, because the site around city 3 had a source iron as well. Still, it's not clear why they didn't try to hook up immediately the other iron source much closer to their capital. That's where they setted their city 2 later, and yet they made no attempt to connect nor the iron nor the ivory nearby! Seriously, Caesar, get a clue :lol:

    At this point, i'm still with 2 cities and all the known AS, with the possible exception of Rome, are superior to me in terms of scientific potential, so what to research now? Maps, Code of Laws and Philosophy are all of interest, but the AS are likely to go there as well and possibly beat me. Literature and Polytheism aren't safe either, as previous GotMs have shown. However, the knowledge of Math opens up two more routes: Currency and Construction, with none of them being a priority for the AS at the moment... at least in theory. I choose a max run at Currency and cross my fingers.

    As the game goes on, the two factories are set up and finally i can enjoy some decent expansion. The RCP4 is completed, a second ring at RCP8 begins being built, and the number of turns left for Currency starts to drop, although not by much (it took 31 turns at the end). Barracks are built. I train a pair of hoplite and some warriors for a future mass-upgrade. By 1450 BC, Map Making shows up, followed by Code of Laws and, later on, Philosophy. In 1200 BC i complete Currency and trade for everything, plus maps, plus some more cash. Research proceeds with a max run on Republic. Moreover, the known maps have revealed some borders somewhere off the coast, and that's where i'm going to send a galley as soon as it's ready.

    The 1000 BC mark is reached with these stats:
    - population: 10 towns, 21 pop units;
    - army: 2 hoplites, 14 swords, 4 warriors, 1 galley, 7 workers and 6 slaves;
    - buildings: 2 granaries, 3 barracks
    - contacts: all the AS on the home continent
    - missing techs: Construction, Polytheism and all the optionals
    - cash: 6 golds in the coffers, with a negative gpt of 5 golds - ouch!

    Here as a shot of my empire at the given date:



    I'm still 17 turns away from Republic but i'm about to reduce that number a little. I'm also one step away from bankrupcy, but next turn (975 BC) a swordsman save the day by smashing a barbarian camp. Moreover, i finally stumble over the Ottomans. They are quite advanced, missing only Construction, and know all the AS oversea, so i decide to not trade anything. As expected, the Ottomans sell off my knowledge abroad and the turn after i have enough contacts to engage in a fruitful trade that nets me Literature, Polytheism, full contacts, full maps and a respectable amount of gold.

    It is important to note that during the trade round i didn't sell contacts between landmasses. Therefore both Polytheism and Literature are widely known abroad but they're still a monopoly in my home continent. This proves crucial 5 turns later (825 BC) when Persia completes its research on Construction. Even though it is a monopoly, they agreed to sell it for Poly + CoL + Maps + Currency and to add a few cash on top of it. Both of us are tossed into the Middle Ages. My pick is Monotheism while Persia fishes Engineering. Other picks are Engineering again for the Ottomans and Feudalism for Russia. Now the second "false monopoly", Literature, comes into the play, because it let me buy Feudalism from Russia with my techs only (no cash, no contacts, no maps), and then to get Engineering from Persia with only Monotheism and Literature.

    It actually doesn't make much difference to deny Feudalism to Persia (they have immortals), but what i wanted was to delay their climb to higher MA techs, expecially Gunpowder. Alas, it didn't work at the end, but it was worth trying. Anyway, with the cash previously collected i performed another mass-upgrade, from swords to maces, and was also able to send some maces to counter a barbarian uprising, although only 2 elite units were formed.

    In 650 BC i finally complete my research on Republic, revolt, draw 5 turns of anarchy and reroll for 2 turns :D Republic is sold off to everybody, even for a song. Not wanting to be forgotten in history, the Greek Anarchs declared war immediately on Rome and sent armies on the battle front. Republic is established in 610 BC, with the Roman war still in the going.

    Plans for the future are: take over Rome, then Russia, then split on two fronts: China and France on the northwest, America and Persia on the northeast. I have two strategic goals to reach as soon as possible: the first one is Paris, which sports the Pyramids (a tremendous asset on such a big landmass); the second one is Persia where i could build my Forbidden Palace city with 3 cities at RCP 3 already in place and growing big, 3 more at RCP 4 (one of which already in place), and a good number of cities at RCP 8, same distance as the 2nd ring around Athens. This will be an extremely powerful set up, but time is an important factor.

    I will need two leaders, one to build Sun Tzu somewhere, the other to build the Forbidden Palace on the chosen location. Given the level and the amount of foes, it shouln't take long to have them... or at least that's what i was thinking at that point.

    Here are some logs:


    Research:

    4000bc: Alphabet, Bronze Working (prerequisites);
    3250bc: Pottery, Ceremonial Burial (trade, Russia); Warrior Code (trade, Rome);
    2710bc: Mysticism (trade, Egypt); Masonry (trade, China);
    2590bc: Wheel (trade, China);
    2110bc: Writing (research); Iron Working (trade, Persia); Mathematics (trade, Russia)
    1650bc: Horse Riding (trade, Persia);
    1200bc: Currency (research); Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making (trade, Russia);
    _950bc: Polytheism, Literature (trade, Aztecs)
    _825bc: Construction (trade, Persia)

    _825bc: Monotheism (scientific bonus); Feudalism (trade, Russia); Engineering (trade, Persia);
    _650bc: Republic (research);


    Cities up to QSC:

    3950bc: Athens (dyes)
    2850bc: Sparta
    2030bc: Thermopylae
    1550bc: Corinth
    1450bc: Delphi

    1375bc: Pharsalos
    1300bc: Knossos
    1225bc: Argos
    1150bc: Mycenae
    1000bc: Plebos Nexia (spices)


    Meetings:

    3300bc: Rome
    3250bc: Russia
    2710bc: Egypt, China
    2350bc: America
    2110bc: Persia, India, France
    _975bc: Ottomans
    _950bc: Celts, Aztecs, Mongolia, Spain, Iroquois
     

    Attached Files:

  4. greatbeyond

    greatbeyond King

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    A question for you tR1cKy.

    You mention rerolling to get a shorter anarchy period. I have seen references to this before but never inquired into the mechanics. I have tried to do this before after getting a dreaded 7+ turns of anarchy but the adviser always asks me if I'm not taking my meds! Would you care to explain the mechanics? Please...

    Barbs - Barbs were a major pain as they kept valuable troops busy that could have been used in the war effort. They also made settler expansion difficult. That is why I campaign for listing the Barb settings with the game description.
     
  5. Stalintag

    Stalintag Chieftain

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    Not to poach the question from tR1cky, but the way you go about this is as follows:

    1) You get the pop up notifying you of your government tech completing research.
    2) From the pop up, go to the big picture, go to the F1 screen and revolt.
    3) If you are not satisfied with the resulting amount of anarchy, when you exit out there should be another pop up asking you if you wish to revolt to your new government. If you choose yes, you get the amount of anarchy recalculated...for better or worse. On a side note, the option to not revolt in this case is humorous as it says something to the effect of "No, our people are happy with Anarchy".

    The tech speed in the this game has me wishing it was a science theme! Report to follow eventually.
     
  6. greatbeyond

    greatbeyond King

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    Thanks Stalintag for the explanation.

    I agree with you that a science victory condition would have been perfect for this game.
     
  7. Orinax

    Orinax Chieftain

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    It has not gone well for me... not at all.

    I settled exactly where I started, had an early war with Rome, and quickly fell behind. I made peace and built as many more cities as I could.

    During the years of peace I traded resources to try and keep up technologically, but I was getting nowhere near the others. I started building up an army and watched the Russians capture all but one of Rome's cities. By the time I started a fight with Russia, they had infantry and I had medieval infantry. I took 5 of their cities before my troops ran dry, and then they proceeded to recapture 3 of them. I should have made peace when they offered.

    I would say I made some very bad choices, but I will continue and see what happens. This is my first GOTM, and first game at emperor. I like the challenge, and the rule of not replaying any turns. Perhaps my next game will be better.

    (Also, thank you tR1cKy for the screenshot and the lengthy explanation of your start. A lot to learn from all that).


    Tapa Talking
     
  8. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    Hi Orinax, and welcome to Civfanatics.

    It is always a great pleasure (and a bit of a surprise frankly) when we get new participants in our friendly competition here at GOTM, and we are always pleased when players post about their experiences.

    I hope that you enjoy participating here. You will find us a friendly bunch (most of the time :mischief: ) and we look forwards to reading about your exploits in the spoilers. :)
     
  9. greatbeyond

    greatbeyond King

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    Welcome Orinax.
    My start was kind of the opposite of tR1cKy. I chose a focus on war very early and then pushed expansion while he went expansion first then war. (Though I'm sure he'll beat my ending date by a couple hundred years.)
    The key to war for me was knowing Iron Working and preventing Caesar from hooking up his iron.
    The tech pace in this game was very fast for the level. Getting a monopoly tech was crucial to making trades and catching up.
     
  10. greatbeyond

    greatbeyond King

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    Question for your Mad Bax.

    I am approaching the end of my game and would like to complete Conquest and Domination on the same turn to try and get just a slightly better score. I am not sure which victory condition will register first. Plan is to take the last AI city and then a lot of Settlers building cities, then end turn.

    Would I get credit for the Conquest even if it says Domination. After the last couple games I don't want to trust Civ Assist II for how many tiles are left to go so I have been pillaging
     
  11. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    The idea for a multiple victory is that you have a choice of capturing that city or not, of going over that limit (cultural or domination), of holding those elections or launching that rocket -- or not. A choice between victory conditions. Only one victory condition is registered -- the one you choose.

    As to game mechanics, going over some limit in the interturn after having annihilated the opposition doesn't count towards a victory, as the Conquest is already perfect. There are no extra points, just spoiler glory.
     
  12. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    @Orinax: Two excellent sources of education are the War Academy and the spoilers of Sir Pleb in earler GOTMs and COTMs.
     
  13. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    I once played an SG with the aim of being able to choose any victory condition on the same turn. We failed because we couldn't get the 100K and 20K to line up :( However,
    Piu Freddo is correct as one would expect. You can only win one way at a time, and if you have a choice then you need to make it. What happens on the inter turn after the victory is set is irrelevant. :)
     
  14. Orinax

    Orinax Chieftain

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    Thank you for the welcome notes! I hope to stick around for awhile. I think the monthly games here will make Civ even better than it already is.

    I have been reading through many of the war academy articles and some of the old training day games. I've already made a list of new things to try for my next few games.

    My game with Greece is already over, but I won't say too much about that here since this is just the first spoiler thread. I will say though, not much improved for me in that game. It took me a little under 7 hours to complete, and from what I've read around the forums so far, I probably moved through my turns too quickly.

    Anyway, thank you again for the welcome. I look forward to reading about the final outcomes of all the Greek games soon!
     
  15. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    AT THE BEGINNING of history, the Greek tribe found itself in
    promising, but unsatisfying lands. Under the discreet influence of one
    Più Freddo, apparently a refugee in southern lands from the far north,
    but after what the Greek thought was a fair committee decision, they
    wandered east and south-east for one hundred years until the arrived
    at a coastal location by a river, where they founded the city of
    Athens, their capital. Their native Slaves, known as Workers, instead
    of entering the city, moved to the north-east of it, where wild Cattle
    grazed, and prepared to improve that land through irrigation and the
    building of roads. For such was the nature of Workers.

    THE CITY DWELLERS, upon arrival at their capital site, had been busy
    making up many different plans for the production in the city of a
    steady stream of Settlers and a set of orders for the Workers to
    follow in order to use their labour as efficiently as possible. These
    plans were prepared in the secret language of Excel, known only to a
    small and exclusive priesthood.

    ONE FACTION preferred to get the Settlers out as fast as possible and
    were to this end prepared to relinquish the possibility to produce
    soldiers between the Settlers, as argued by others. They reasoned that
    Greek Workers were of a slow kind and would need many lives of men to
    prepare the land in such as fashion as to allow such intricate
    operations. In the mean time many Settlers could be built at a steady
    rate of six turns per Settler. This party was known as the REX party.

    ANOTHER FACTION said that many Warriors, and indeed even more
    formidable soldiers of up to thirty shields-worth, could be sent out
    by Athens between the Settlers without lowering the final rate of
    Settlers. It was certainly worth it, they argued, to spend nine turns
    in the early days of Athens building two more Workers, two Warriors
    and a Barracks. An early war would then be possible, and the extra
    Workers would benefit the whole realm for perpetuity. This party was
    known as the MAX party.

    AS GOOD DEMOCRATS, the Greek finally decided for the MAX plan with
    some consideration for the arguments of the REX party. The Barracks
    could be postponed somewhat in order for the second Settler to arrive
    earlier.

    ALL PLANS had called for the production of an initial Warrior, that
    the populace be quiet, and the research of Pottery, that a Granary be
    built in Athens. The Governor of Athens was ordered to prefer
    Production over Food and Commerce, and these orders were made to all
    new cities as a general preference. All commercial power was put to
    scientific use.

    THE GREEK AND THEIR WORKERS now got busy expanding over the land,
    connecting Resources and figuring out how their Government could be
    improved to something they called Republic. The annals of Ancient
    Greece contains the following notes outlining the growth and expansion
    of the budding empire:

    3900 BC Found Athens
    2950 BC Build Granary in Athens
    2750 BC Connect Dyes
    2630 BC Found Sparta
    2070 BC Found Thermopylae
    1950 BC Connect Horses
    1910 BC Found Corinth
    1575 BC Found Delphi
    1475 BC Found Pharsalos
    1300 BC Found Knossos
    1150 BC Found Argos
    1050 BC Connect Iron
    _975 BC Found Mycenae
    _975 BC Connect Spices
    _950 BC Found Plebos Nexia​

    THE IMPERIAL PLANNERS in Athens had a preference to place new cities
    at a fix distance of three tiles from Athens in order to please the
    gods ruling over waste and corruption, and to build closer cities
    before ones at a further distance. For the city of Thermopylae they
    made an exception to the second rule, as not only wild horses, but
    also wild Romans, had been spotted in the area.

    WELL AWARE of their scientific prowess, the Greek were proud to
    note the following:

    4000 BC Discover Bronze Working
    4000 BC Discover Alphabet
    3300 BC Discover Pottery
    3300 BC Learn Warrior Code (Trade from Rome for Pot and BW)
    2230 BC Discover Writing
    2230 BC Learn The Wheel
    2230 BC Learn Mysticism
    2230 BC Learn Masonry
    2230 BC Learn Iron Working
    2230 BC Learn Ceremonial Burial
    1870 BC Discover Horseback Riding
    1450 BC Discover Code of Laws
    1450 BC Learn Philosophy
    1275 BC Learn Map Making
    1200 BC Learn Polytheism
    1200 BC Learn Mathematics
    _875 BC Discover The Republic​

    THE GREEK WERE NOT ALONE in the world, as they soon found out. Soon
    the Roman tribe was met with, and later connections to many foreign
    tribes on the continent was established through diplomatic
    negotiations. A small uncivilized village turned out to contain
    nothing but Barbarians. Rome extorted 29 gold and a Territory Map in
    1225 BC. The time was not yet ripe, Più Freddo argued at the Ekklesia.

    SHIPS WERE LAUNCHED which quickly made their way across calm waters to
    another landmass containing many foreign tribes. At this time it was
    deemed that all the tribes in the whole world was known. The high
    priest Più Freddo confirmed this with mystic incantations of something
    called F10.

    AS IN 1100 BC the Americans declared war, happiness rose in Greek
    cities. The Americans would never again see peace. For such was the
    plans of the Greek: to conquer the whole world and rule alone.
    This is an extract of the annals of the diplomatic corps of Ancient
    Greece:

    3600 BC Meet Rome
    2230 BC Meet Russia
    2230 BC Meet Persia
    2230 BC Meet India
    2230 BC Meet France
    2230 BC Meet Egypt
    2230 BC Meet China
    2230 BC Meet America
    1175 BC Meet Spain
    1175 BC Meet Ottomans
    1175 BC Meet Mongols
    1175 BC Meet Iroquois
    1175 BC Meet Celts
    1175 BC Meet Aztecs​

    IN THE YEAR 1000 BC, statisticians made the following observations of
    the state of the Greek empire:

    _8 Cities
    _4 Barracks
    _1 Granary
    24 Citizens
    _4 Workers
    _6 Slaves
    _2 Settlers
    _3 Warriors
    _7 Swordsmen
    _7 Horsemen
    _1 Galley
    _1 Hoplite
    17 Technologies (Missing C&C and Governments)
    14 Contacts​

    ONLY A HUNDRED YEARS LATER, Anarchy spread in Greece upon the
    discovery of The Republic. Più Freddo used the powers of F1 to
    estimate the duration of this unfortunate phase to only two turns, and
    decided not to attempt to re-arouse the populace. In the year 850 BC
    the Greek Republic was firmly established, war was declared on Rome
    and a Stack of Doom consisting of eight Swordsmen and two elite
    Horsemen entered Roman territory.
     
  16. Stalintag

    Stalintag Chieftain

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    With the goal being conquest, I think there are two ways to go about it. The first option is to build a few cities with decent production and then just go all units, all the time and try to keep the wave going long enough to knock everyone out. The other option is to build up a decent core, delay the initial attack a bit, and then attack while still being able to advance decently in tech and upgrade the military as need be. With the fast tech pace in this game, I am glad I chose the latter option.

    My goal was to build up a core with cities at distance 4 and 7 and then knock out Rome. Thankfully resources were bountiful and I was able to go the preferred route of horses while hooking up 3 luxuries. Barbarians proved to not be too much of an issue as I used horsemen to keep them under control.

    As far as tech, I went for 40 turn min runs on Writing, Literature, and Republic. I used Writing and Lit to trade for most of the other Ancient techs, aside from buying Pottery early and HBR later on. I used the cash I made to establish the many needed embassies. Once these embassies were established I set to creating conflicts to slow down the tech pace a bit. I was rather pleased as the wars I started on our continent and the other both drew other participants in rather quickly. The goal is to hopefully suppress the tech rate enough to be able to mop things up with cavalry.

    Anyway, I reached the cutoff for this spoiler at about 90BC when I finally revolted into a Republic. By this time I had conquered most of Rome and managed to snare a victory with a Hoplite to fire up my GA. As I transition to the middle ages, I'm building markets in my core while researching to Chivalry and then making a beeline to Military Tradition. I'm hoping to get ahead in tech and use that as leverage to keep the world at war as I clean things up in a clockwise direction.
     
  17. tR1cKy

    tR1cKy taking over the world

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    Sorry for the non-reply, i was having issues with my connectivity and then i just forgot the whole thing. However, i see Stalintag has already addressed the matter quite well.

    @Orinax: welcome to the GotM, and don't worry for your results, you'll improve. This competition is an excellent training ground.
     

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