GOTM65: 2nd Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by civ_steve, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

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    GOTM 65 - second spoiler



    This is the part of the game where the human player can start to get caught up. Hopefully you use the AI civs, while avoiding getting steamrolled. Have you kept that AI steamroller in it's garage, or targeted it towards another AI? Which AI are the dominant players in your game and what are your plans to deal with them?


    Reading Requirements:

    1. Must have contact with All remaining Civs.
    2. Must be able to research an Industrial Age Technology.

    Posting restrictions

    1. No maps showing Industrial or Modern resources.
    2. No discussion of Industrial Age (or later).
     
  2. tao

    tao Deity

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    Well ...... I tried to catch up ;) ....... but didn't really succeed.

    Only in 390BC all three 1st level MA techs were known to the AIs and I could buy monotheism and trade it for engineering and feudalism. My Middle Age research was always behind the leading AIs and I had to buy techs after researching them for some time and then usually traded to get (at least) a second one same turn. I tried as much as possible to give "big money" to the weaker civs, and especially not to my neighbours Babylon and Rome.

    The AIs were waring like crazy; all the time making and breaking alliances. Scores of Babylonian, Roman, and Mongol units walked thru my territory. Usually much more units then humble Indians had in total.

    Regrettably, Rome and Babylon made peace early and I could not profit from their fighting at all - except maybe by Rome's limited culture. India remained boxed in: Rome west, Babylon east, Greece northwest, Mongols northeast.

    In 50BC I could buy chivalry (and trade for invention, gunpowder). But I had to wait till 130AD to trigger my Golden Age by killing a lone Aztec longbow. In 370AD I joined the dogpile on Greece and got some expansion northwards, gaining wines and saltpeter.

    In 460AD I could buy theory of gravity from Rome and entered Industrial Times. Babylon has nationalism and medicine. Prognosis: 24 turns to research steam. I donate Ottomans to IA and they also get steam; research down to 20 turns. Next I make peace with Greece (completely blocking them via ROP in their last peninsula city) and they get steam too. Now I am able to buy it from them for military tradition, 145gpt. Ouch. And look for coal (spoiler;)).

    Up to now, nobody ever declared war on me. I agreed on most extortions, refused some by far-away civs engaged in heavy wars, and got away with it.

    Dominant civs are Babylon (I have a "permanent" luxury swap deal with them), Rome (I try to "always" pay them some gpt to keep them peaceful), Mongols, and Celts. My plan obviously is to survive and prevent wars. The dogpiling is extremely heavy, and India won't have a chance to successfully fight for now. The big hope is on railroads and infantry/artillery to improve this situation. With all the fighting going on, India currently seems to be in an excellent position for a diplomatic victory.
     
  3. ionimplant

    ionimplant Prince

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    middle age was similar to my ancient time. i eventually settled enough cities so that my land area ranked the 3rd in F11 screen. i was making enough gpt to always be able to buy techs once the monopoly was gone. Rome was fighting Zulu the entire game. Ottomas was with Rome first but later on allied with Rome against Zulu. that's the only war i was aware of.
    France was the science leader, has ~5000 gold in its treasury most of the time. and i've been paying her a lot of gpt.
    everyone other AI was poor. once in a while i would trade my tech for like 15gpt from those poor AI lagging behind.

    at the end of the MA, i had like 3 war elephant and 1 pikeman. most of my big cities have temples and market place. i don't know when, or whether i will eventually start research techs. music theory at one point would take me 10turns at -179gpt to research. i don't think i am ready yet, as most of my cities don't have universities.
    plan is to build a small army and hopefully get a few roman cities as my forbidden city was just finished in the border town next to Rome.
     
  4. Midgardsormr

    Midgardsormr Warlord

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    When the Middle Ages began for my Indians, I had just received Chivalry in exchange for an alliance against Mongolia. That war went well, earning me three cities and pushing the Mongolians entirely out of my part of the world. It also started my Golden Age, allowing me to accelerate my training of still more elephants.

    Unfortunately, that is where my empire faltered. Babylon ended their war with Mongolia and apparently found themselves with a lot of idle troops. So they attacked my eastern frontier with a lot of knights. I had a few pikemen and elephants in the mountains to guard my iron supply, but the weight of numbers was too much for them to hold off, and I quickly lost both of my iron towns. A few more elephants supported by catapults promised to reverse the assault if I could just bring them to bear, but lacking iron meant that I could no longer build pikes.

    At that point, the Zulus, who still had a large quantity of troops within my borders as a result of their war against Greece, decided to take advantage of the situation. Although the Zulus were still using Impis and Spearmen, they had a lot of them, and my forces were already deployed against Babylon.

    I finally met my end at around 1000 AD, when I abandoned the defense of my remaining cities in favor of bloodying Shaka as much as I could before going down.

    At my height, I had 14 settlements (and had lost two to culture flips), a sizeable population, and was on good terms with most of the AI. My military was always underpowered, even for a deity game I think.

    It was a brutal game, but I think I learned a great deal. I am looking forward to the GotM 66; maybe I'll get the chance to apply my new skills.

    Things that need improvement: I need to learn how to balance expansion with military strength. I started building my army far too late and had insufficient defenses around my most vulnerable and valuable cities--the ones providing my iron. My city placement was too loose, driven by my desire to claim a lot of land and strategic resources. I need to keep an eye on maintaining a defensible nation rather than a large one. Finally, my micromanagement skills could use some work.
     
  5. tao

    tao Deity

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    Not necessarly. Yes, I had about 3 defenders in the iron towns, but many of my cities were undefended while 50 to 100 foreign units were moving thru my territory. I maintained a spotless reputation, took great care to not have any spare resources provoking extortions, and liked to have gpt-paying deals with my strong neighbours. Most of my resources were spent on infrastructure and culture to expand the borders. And I was successful/lucky. :)
     
  6. Midgardsormr

    Midgardsormr Warlord

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    Ah. And you point to another blind spot I have. I tend to avoid giving gpt deals when I can. Alright, I'll keep that in mind in the future.
     
  7. Chamnix

    Chamnix Chasing Time

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    Thanks for this one civ_steve :thumbsup:. It’s been a long time since we had a deity map that played like a deity map. I’d forgotten how much fun it is to struggle for much of the game. The large/60% choices may have been a little much, but I’ll forgive you for that ;).

    I didn’t take a lot of notes during the Middle Ages because I was too into the game. I spent much of the beginning part still in Despotism until I could afford to buy Monarchy where I stayed for the rest of the game. My science slider never moved above zero – I completed one or maybe two minimum tech runs, but everything else was purchased or :hammer: out of the AI.

    I have to say the Predator equalizer was brutal this game. The coming of war elephants would have been a perfect time for a Golden Age. Instead, since I continually lagged in techs, I couldn’t build any wonders, so I still haven’t had my GA by the end of the Middle Ages.

    I did get a few leaders. One was used to move my palace to Babylonian lands, and the others generally became armies :dunno:.

    I did my best to make sure there was lots of fighting going on. I constantly signed alliances for gpt and kept switching sides whenever I could. I always made sure Rome and Greece were on my side while I was fighting Babylon, but other than that, I would sign against anybody often gaining in the process. For example, I would sign an alliance with civ A against B, C, D, and E – I would pay gpt. Eventually civ A would sign peace with civ B breaking our deal. Then civ A would typically pay me for an alliance with C, D, and E, giving me a tech (or at least a discount on a tech while I always paid gpt).

    There were definitely a few :eek: moments in the Middle Ages like when 3 or 4 civs started building Universal Suffrage while I was still around Physics, or when my war elephants first came across Babylonian riflemen before I had claimed a source of saltpeter, but I kept plugging away and by the time I staggered into the Industrial Age in 890 AD, Babylon had been almost completely razed and replaced, and I finally felt in control of the game.
     
  8. PrinceMyshkin

    PrinceMyshkin King

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    This was a really tough and really long middle age, but I ended up much better than I thought I would at the end.:) I was a monarchy when the MA started in 670BC. All the scientific civs had the first-tier techs and Republic on me, but I was also ahead of several others. I started research on monotheism and soon traded for the first-tier as other civs entered the MA and set my research to chivalry which none of the ai had yet.

    I was beat to chivalry, but just before completing research I sent my archer stack against one of Babylons iron towns and captured it early in the war around 110BC. Wars were raging everywhere between all the ai's. I started producing elephants and started my GA about 10BC. I captured a second Babylonian city quickly and fought off their offensives for the rest of the GA. The Babs signed an ma against me with the Arabs, but wars with other civs prevented them from ever sending troops to me. When I hooked up iron I traded it away for a ma and invention with Zulu, but I didn't realize their war declaration would prevent me from sending it to them. This allowed me to trade the iron for gunpowder and an ma against the arabs with the Celts. I got a leader and formed an army I used to pillage Babs iron and horses. The Babs had musketmen in all their towns greatly slowing my offensive, but the Zulu captured their source of saltpeter making things easier. This war continued until the end of the MA and I captured 6 more Bab cities, before making peace upon entering the IA in 810AD. I made two armies, eventually losing both, one in the only culture-flip just before peace. My other two leaders rushed the FP in Bab lands and the Heroic Epic in Delhi. I also founded more cities securing saltpeter in former Greek lands.

    I got some tech in peace with the arabs just before they were destroyed, and also an IA tech from Babylon for peace. I thought I would be much further behind, but constant warfare has kept the tech pace low as I am currently only one tech behind the leaders. Greece most likely will be destroyed before reaching the IA. My reputation is clean and I have payed some gpt to the ai to improve their attitudes and am still in a phony war with America. My military is quite weak after constant losses and I still don't have a source of horses, but Rome is willing to sell them quite cheap. I have libraries and marketplaces in my core, but only two luxuries as Japan signed a trade embargo against me. I am currently second in cities and fourth in land and pop. Plans are to build cavalry and some cannon to take out the remaining Bab cities and capture Sun-Tzu's when the peace deal ends. Also, I'll be paying Rome a lot for peace as they are at war with everybody and winning, but are gracious to me.

    I'm not out of the woods yet, since an unexpected dow could put me out quick. The Ottos only have eight cities, but also 12,000 gold and are fighting off 6 civs at once. They lack iron so I have some leverage with them. This map is huge at 2500+ tiles, but I'm starting to have a good time trying to win this challenge.:)
     
  9. PaperBeetle

    PaperBeetle Emperor

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    The Ancient Age
    At first it looks like a tough start, with all the forest chops needed to open up the food bonuses, but really it isn't. All it takes to get a four turn factory running smoothly and quickly is some extra worker power; I would have build two extra, but I managed to buy a slave. Of course, by the time I had my second town founded, the expansionist civs had six towns, and the others had four or five. But I don't mind them having their fun now. It will all turn ugly soon enough...
    I maintain full steam research almost throughout the age, although in fact I never actually finish any techs. Is it more efficient to stockpile cash, or to invest in beakers and get a discount when buying the techs? I don't know, but it is worth noting that invested beakers can't be extorted or pillaged. Anyway, I maintained near-parity by researching towards Pots for my granary, then Masonry to enable Maths, Maths becasue it is a good trader and speeds the tech pace by opening the two Cs, and Literature for libraries.
    Actually, after Literature, I started a min run on Republic, so there really was no hurry to build any libraries. But Laws was late out (as usual when left up to the AI), so I probably couldn't have started the min run any sooner anyway. Towards the end of the era I started a dogpile on the Quois, and was able to get a discount on Currency for peace. I swapped it for Construction to enter the medieval in 1025bc.

    Huge Tracts of Land
    The barb uprisings are a nuisance, but nothing unexpected. Although I am on a min run, my income is not so great that I can't burn it off by upgrading axes to swords; by 900bc I have actually gone strong to Arabia and the Quois, and average to most of the other civs. I also have to be careful where I walk with my settlers, but my expansion is not unduly restricted. I settle the lakeside horses in 975bc, and expand north to the sea, dividing the continent in 710bc. Not that I will be stopping anyone from crossing from one side to the other of course. :)
    There is still plenty of land to fill as well - the great plains between India and Greece, the tundra peninsula to my southeast, and the desert peninsula to the northeast. I know I should also push into the eastern plains before Babylon swallows them. Even one of the Babylonian ivory sources is easily poachable, but I prefer not to overreach myself, especially as I have several wars going on with distant civs, and far-flung towns can be a bit of a liability.

    First Military Action
    I am playing with fire to have all these wars going on. There is always the risk that someone will buy a neighbour against me, and of course Rome and Babylon both find wars to fight at opposite ends of the continent, so CivAssistII usually lists 50-100 foreign units in my territory. Rome in particular would be in a position to conquer me in about five turns flat if someone were to ally them against me. But they never do, more fool them. I do take care to always have a unit in any town which is next to a foreign unit, just to be sure they don't think they can get anything for no risk, and perform a purely opportunistic sneak attack.
    In 510bc the Mongols do set the Greeks onto me though, resulting in the instant loss of one of my core towns. It takes a fair bit of muscle to take back (from hoplites of course) but I still have a lot of units available. Since getting the horses hooked, I had switched to building horses for upgrade, but most of my strength is based around maces who had originally been built as axes during the ancient age.

    End of Min Research
    In 390bc I actually research a tech myself for the first time; my min run on Republic ends. I revolt on the interturn, and set research to Invention, having got the whole medieval first tier, in one tech brokering round, a couple of turns earlier. The AI reaches Invention before me of course, in 290bc. In 170bc I can afford to buy it as part of a peace treaty, saving myself the last 130 beakers. I set research to Guns, again not expecting to be the first there, although completion of the FP in Bangalore (RCP3 due east of Delhi) boosts overall research a little.
    In 130bc, the Japanese are discovered. I do have galleys out looking for this lost civilization, but in the end I decide to save myself the bother, and give Alex iron for the contact. Toku is of course totally ********. He doesn't have any cash, only two towns with culture, and he still has a whole tier of ancient techs to get through. His most valuable asset is his world map, so I have a big round of map trading, picking up 200g for free.

    First Casualty
    I am only indirectly responsible for the first kill; prosecuting a war which I had encouraged a long time ago, the French and Celts finish off the Arabs in 30bc. This leaves them in a strong position, with that whole northwestern peninsula to share between the two of them. Indeed, by this time, the Celts, French, Greeks, Romans and Babylonians have risen to become a 'Big Five', clearly outscoring the rest of us, and capable of serious research, whereas the civs in the northeast are mainly just capable of bickering amongst themselves; there are simply too many of them up there, in too small a space, to coexist comfortably.
    30bc is also the year that Guns are invented, not too far ahead of my own research. I buy it from Ham in 10bc, when I have only one turn of research left, for a 70g discount on the remaining beaker cost. I cast around for the nearest source of saltpeter, and curse my laziness in not expanding into the deserts to my northwest; the only local source is north of the horses, next to the Greek town of Rhodes. There is another source northeast of that, even deeper into Greek territory. Well I'll just have to culture-poach the source at Rhodes.

    Elephants Rock!
    Only kidding. The AI get Chivalry in 90ad. I would pay good money not to get my hands on it, but luckily the AI agrees to not give it to me for free :). I trade Guns for Education too, which is handy because it means I don't have to worry about razing the Great Library to prevent myself learning Chivalry. Mind you, elephants are good for one thing - their ivory. Rome and Babylon have been scrapping in my territory for a good long time, and despite the fact that Babylon is the larger civ, the Roman armies are pushing back the Babylonians. They raze a couple of Babylon's western towns, and I am able to expand east to finally grab one of the ivory sources in 150ad.
    A little while later Leonardo gets built - a key component of my grand military strategy, but it is in Paris, a relatively inaccessible location. The next turn, Rome cascades to Michelangelo. This is of interest to me because it is nearby and religious, and I need to think how to start my golden age.

    The Tech Frontier
    In 250ad I research Chemistry, and for the first time I am in the tech lead. Well actually Astronomy is out now, but I'm only really interested in the bottom branch of the tech tree. I sell Chemistry for the kind of money you can only get on deity, and set research to Metallurgy. I manage it in 7 turns, again giving me a clear monopoly. Again I sell for heavy duty gpt, as well as Astronomy and Banking. Greece already has Navigation. That will do for my golden age! I can build Magellan after capturing either the Roman Michelangelo or the Oracle of Babylon. Or if Economics becomes available I can build Smith, which is fundamentally more useful to me than Magellan. I do have a prebuild going for just such an eventuality, in my FP town, but it is inland, so I would need a leader for Magellan. And for that I would need war...

    War
    I research Mil Trad in 6 turns, and immediately upgrade all 26 of my horses to cavs. I am somewhat dismayed to find that I am still weak to Babylon and France. I am average to five other civs, and strong to everyone else. Two turns later, 400ad, I give Julius a boot order and he obligingly dows me. Despite that they are already at war, Ham isn't interested in giving me a good deal on an alliance against Rome. But he does have Economics which I want, so I take the bad deal, 90gpt for alliance + Economics. I can trade it over to the Mongols for Navigation too.
    My first action in the war is to try to mop up the Roman units in my territory; they are still trekking across to Babylon, though in far fewer numbers than they once did. Nevertheless, that first assault is a complete bloodbath, and not in my favour. I lose a large proportion of my maces trying to damage the Roman tresspassers, many of whom have been sticking to the hills and mountains south of Delhi.
    Still I have enough cavs left over to take one Roman exclave and two of their border towns.

    Better Late Than Never
    Progress against Rome is steady at one or two towns per turn, and in 460ad I get a great leader, who goes to rush Magellan in a Roman coastal town. The golden age begins in 480ad. While it is true that if I were playing Open, war elephants could have started the golden age at the perfect time to speed up the acquisition of Mil Trad, the extra turns gained would in no way make up for the inability to build cavs by playing disconnect/reconnect with saltpeter. Was this Predator bonus chosen specifically to underscore the superior strategy for military games?
    Rome is gone in 490ad, and I give Alex a boot order on the same turn. Unfortunately (for I still have few luxuries, and would appreciate the war happiness) he agrees to leave my territory. So I dow in him anyway, taking a couple of border towns. The Greek campaign is delayed by several culture flips, and by my failure to suppress the Greek saltpeter supply early enough, but again I can progress at about one town per turn. The Celts, who have a couple of stacks of death heading east somewhere, decide to try an opportunistic dow in 570ad, capturing the dye town Sparta, but my swarms of cavalries are unfazed, and I take the town back next turn, and massacre every Celt in the area.

    Strongest in the World
    I buy Joan against the Celts and get back to finishing off the Greeks. Their last town falls in 620ad. I have 105 cavalries, and at last I am militarily strong to the Babylonians. I should hope so too: they will be my next target. My purpose right now is to prevent any of the scientific civs reaching the industrial era. The AI are already up to Physics, but it is critical for me to prevent anyone from ever learning how to make rifles. To that end, I am going to use ROP rape for the first time against Babylon, and before I do so I get ROPs with several of the small northeast civs, including the Ottomans, the only other remaining scientific civ.
    The rape on Babylon starts in 670ad, but goes poorly against their large numbers of muskets. I raze their saltpeter town and capture 15 others, but several planned captures fall several attacks short, and my cavalries are disinclined to retreat this turn. I lose 30 of them, which puts me down to average versus France. :( To make matters worse, I notice that Joan now sports a natty blue jacket and smart haircut. She has reached the Industrial era.

    The Worst News
    The war slows down after that first assault, as I am very short on fresh reinforcements, and the culture of the remaining Babylonian towns makes reaching them difficult. The Babylonian armies also start returning from the north - Ham had been busy conquering the Zulu, and had nearly finished the job too. To consolidate my hold on the Babylonian territory, I use a leader to jump the palace to Babylon, securing Bach from culture flips, and dramatically improving the production in the area, and indeed in my empire at large, for Babylon is much less densely seeded with towns than India, where the FP lies.
    Eventually, I take all of Babylon, although Ham survives in his Zulu towns, which are hard to access due to poor jungle roads. Shaka himself is kicked off the continent by the Americans, and survives on the 2-tile island in the north. If he has accidentally blockaded the island with his compulsive impi-building, that will be the worst news, for I must go all the way to marines. I have a caravel carrying a couple of cavs going to have a look, but it takes so long to get there on this large map! They arrive in 740ad, and land next to the town, under ROP. So that's okay. But I get the second worst news this turn: Osman has MPP available. :eek: He is Industrial, and got Nationalism as his free tech.

    Stop the Rot
    I need to try and prevent the spread of that technology at all costs, so I get an MPP with Osman, planning to draw attacks from anyone else who is already showing as Industrial. That would be the French, Celts, Aztecs and Mongols. The Babylonians never make it; I reach their last town on the southern island in 750ad, with Ham still medieval.
    In 760ad I begin my attack on the French by taking their saltpeter, three towns on the peninsula northeast of India, and Paris itself. I had been setting up this attack for some time as a full ROP rape on France. I was nowhere near finished with the preparations, but the Nationalism issue has forced my hand. Paris seems indefensible, but there is good reason to reason to try; it contains both the Pyramids and Leonardo. Perhaps I should have come here directly after killing Greece, and not worried about the scientific civs. After all, I have obviously failed to prevent the introduction of rifles to the world...
    Anyway, France counterattacks Paris in 770ad, drawing the Ottoman dow. Joan has some cavalry, but not that many; she has been at war with the Celts for a long time now and they have sapped her strength. Even so, I don't have any hope of reinforcing the town soon, despite having 178 cavs; most of them were fighting on the Babylonian front, and have moved on to attacking the Mongols. So I gift Paris to the Americans for a while, and let the French take it back from them while I hole up on a nearby mountain.

    What A Lot of Civs
    It's amazing how many civs I seem to kill and still they don't all fit on the F4 screen! The Mongols are very weak, with no saltpeter of their own, and I finish them off in 800ad. My forces immediately plough into the Aztecs, who are in a similar position. I take all their towns in 4 turns, but they still have a seaborne settler somewhere. I also get a second load of units onto the Zulu island, so Shaka is gone in 810ad.
    Meanwhile in the west, I have advanced across the desert south of the French core, but France finally researches Nationalism, so I decide that I had better take Paris back before I must face rifles there. As France no longer has saltpeter or horses, I need not fear counterattacks, but flips are a worry. I solve that problem by jumping the palace up to Paris in 840ad.
    Progress against the French rifles is slow, but with over 200 cavs it is nevertheless steady. War weariness gets to be the biggest problem, so I give Joan peace in 850ad and have a breather. Unfortunately the Celts now have Nationalism. You just can't keep a good tech down eh?

    One Hit Kills
    Having beaten my enemies in the east, it is time to start on my friends! I prepare a careful ROP rape on the Americans, and manage to begin and end the war in 850ad. Watha goes the same way in 890ad. That pushes the cost of renewing my ROP with Osman to 20gpt, but I think that's well worth it. Unfortunately, it is impossible to get ROP with Joan no matter the gpt I offer, probably because I already raped her ROP when I first took Paris. This is problematic because I want to take her out in one turn so as to avoid suffering war weariness. Of course my cavs can cover a lot of distance even without ROP, but there are two towns in the north which are protected by the rough terrain up there. Well, are settlers unbootable perhaps? I don't know, but Joan suffers my combat settler on her territory long enough that I can found a town to restart the war, and hit all her cities in 910ad. My attack on Avignon actually comes up a little short, so I have to endure the returned war weariness for a turn, but France is out in 920ad.
    To celebrate, the end of my long time bugbear, I rape the Ottoman's ROP and kill him in 920ad too. This is quite a relief as he had a large contingent of sipahi trekking through my core to recah the French front, as well as at least one army (sip + longbow + musket or something silly like that)!

    Mopping Up
    I have taken some Celtic border towns by now, but I give Brennus peace in 920ad to allow myslef time to regroup. I also throw ROP and war with the last two civs (Aztec and Japanese) into the deal. This turns out be a bit rash, as I am not finished setting up the Celtic rape when I decide to give Japan peace; I am invading his island, but of course he has enormous stacks of units, and I don't want to be kicked off there.
    So my treaty with the Japanese puts me back at war with the Celts in 940ad. I am only able to take 3 towns that turn, but through sheer weight of numbers I press home the attack against the Celtic rifles, and they are finished in 970ad.
    I also catch the last Aztec caravel trying to make landfall in the Iznik area (Iznik was founded on saltpeter, so I had to raze the town, leaving a nice open patch of land with a resource in it - an AI honeytrap).
    And finally in 970ad I execute my rape of Toku's ROP, taking all his towns, but just failing to catch a settler which he had buried under a huge stack of foot units. I get it the next turn, to score a conquest victory in 990ad.

    Firaxis score 10690, gave me about 9500 Jasons, right on the PaperBeetle average. 268 hours played, and I had 280 cavalries at the end. This was almost the most gruelling game of civ I ever played. But it was kinda fun. :)
     

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  10. ionimplant

    ionimplant Prince

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