government

Its not til the late middle ages where you can hook up more lux trade bc of Navigation. But during the AA, there is a lack of lux. You are lucky to have even 3 at that time. Everytime I go from despotism-republic I lose much way more gold compared to despotism-monarchy.
 
Dreadnoughtt said:
Do you play builder style or conquer style? I tried builder style, but on monarch and emperor it doesnt work.
Of course it does, you just have to play right. Biuld more roads to maximize Republic's benefit, have little or even no military to reduce unit support, buy workers for the same reason, and remember that expansion and growth are more important than anything else.

In a Republic, you get more gold, so you can raise the lux slider in war times to avoid WW and still research at a decent speed. Lack uf luxes hurts you in every government and is more closely related to Marketplaces than Repubilc.
 
Seeing the concensus here and in previous threads over the years as well as a lack of to many endorsements of Feudalism here's my question for the good players out there.

Would I benefit from Republic instead of Feudalism?

I have played all civ games since they came out and have plenty of experience. I am not among the better ones though as I only play at Emperor level. I have tried a few games at Demigod but Emperor is where I'm comfortable.

I used Republic all the time for the first few years I played. But when I changed my playing style from builder and OCP to warmonger and xoox I found it impossible to be in a Republic. I reach 40-50 cities relatively quickly (I always play on "large" maps) and build very few buildings. In the AA I build about 1-2 granaries and that's about it. I therefore produce rather a lot of units and I find it completely impossible to support them in a Republic. Even in Monarchy I lose a lot of gold in unit support compared to Feudalism.

I suppose it's possible that my transformation to a warmonger isn't complete and that I don't attack soon enough and often enough, but I strongly doubt I could win much with the units allowed by Republic. Especially with my eventually 60ish workers.

So things to keep in mind answering this question:

- I build my cities in the xoox pattern keping them at size 6.
- I build few buildings in the AA, later the cities get a Courthouse, Library, Marketplace and even later University, Factory and Police Station. No Barracks, I time a prebuild to get the Sun Tzu wonder. (Took quite a few games to convince me that no Barracks was the way to go but it's definatley better the way I play.)
- I play Conquests, not vanilla or PTW.

So... does anyone want to tell me Republic is better for me and if so, what changes must be made to not go bankrupt in a few turns with it? Or could it be that Feudalism is the better choice for me playing this way?
 
so, getting a bunch of your cities to size 7 will help your unit support costs a lot - it doubles the number of units that city supports. Also, the corruption model is such that you want cities near your capitol to be larger - you really want your 1st ring to be size 12 if you can get them there. on a large map, your 2nd ring, as well.

I assume that you only start warmongering after you have built Sun-tzu's - what do you do with all those regular units you have hanging around?
 
Of course it does, you just have to play right. Biuld more roads to maximize Republic's benefit, have little or even no military to reduce unit support, buy workers for the same reason, and remember that expansion and growth are more important than anything else.

In a Republic, you get more gold, so you can raise the lux slider in war times to avoid WW and still research at a decent speed. Lack uf luxes hurts you in every government and is more closely related to Marketplaces than Repubilc.
-Pentium

The problem is, you have to have a military or else you'l get attacked.. Also its more important to have more cities than to have marketplaces in a few.

Later on, you can improve those extra cities. This is why Monarchy is better. It helps you in the beggining where you need it. Later on, you can switch to whatever suits the position.
 
Dreadnoughtt said:
The problem is, you have to have a military or else you'l get attacked.. Also its more important to have more cities than to have marketplaces in a few.

Later on, you can improve those extra cities. This is why Monarchy is better. It helps you in the beggining where you need it. Later on, you can switch to whatever suits the position.
Being in Republic and having a military are not mutually exclusive, you just need to have a smaller but more up-to-date force. You hamper yourself when choosing monarchy, because you fall further behind in the tech race.
 
AutomatedTeller said:
so, getting a bunch of your cities to size 7 will help your unit support costs a lot - it doubles the number of units that city supports. Also, the corruption model is such that you want cities near your capitol to be larger - you really want your 1st ring to be size 12 if you can get them there. on a large map, your 2nd ring, as well.

I assume that you only start warmongering after you have built Sun-tzu's - what do you do with all those regular units you have hanging around?

A size 7 city in Republic support 3 units while a size 6 city in Feudalism support 5 units. Might not sound like much but with, say 30 cities, that's 60 extra units that would otherwise cost 120 gold per turn in Republic. And I soon get 30 cities and more.

I find the corruption to be MUCH less of a nuisance with lots of xoox placed cities at size 6 than fewer size 12 cities in near OCP placement. Don't forget that I can fit more cities in the same space and have more cities in that "first ring".

You assume wrong. And I believe it's because you haven't tried the xoox placement of your cities. If you had, you probably wouldn't assume such a thing. You are underestimating just how many units get produced. By the time I get Sun Tzu (not that I always get it but most of the time) I have had at least two major wars already.

I had this fun start once, unfortunately only on Monarch, where I had 2 food sources close and got both my capital and 2:nd city to be 4-turn Settler factories. Halfway through the AA I had some 250 Mounted Warriors and had to just stop as there was no resistance what-so-ever and it wasn't fun to play anymore. With a normal start I can still build hundreds of Mounted Warriors (yes, I'm Iroquois most of the time thanks to their amazing UU and traits that match my playing style) as well as 50-100 Warriors (for city garrison/police) and appropriate numbers of Settler/Workers by the end of the AA.

I used to always build Barracks and always thought it was well worth it. Even after I changed from OCP to xoox. Then I saw this tip from a guy suggesting not to build them and I thought I'd try it. First time out I was unsure but after trying a few times more I have no doubts lack of Barracks is better by far. With the massive city count I easily save 30 GPT for the entire game, maybe more. Also the shields saved gets me 4 Mounted Warriors for every 3 Barracks not built.

It may take a while to overcome the urge to build the Barracks but combat experience actually bring most of my MW up to veteran status soon enough. The good thing about horses is that they often retreat when losing so you get a new chance to win and promote.

I'm thinking... if I can overome my laziness perhaps I should keep record of my next game. Then you could see for yourselves that Republic is impossible in my games and perhaps suggest changes to make it posible. Not that I'm convinced it would be better with Republic in my case.

I am curious as to why nobody ever recommends Feudalism... but then again I'm also very lazy...
 
A size 12 city in republci nets 12 bonus gold, translate to 6 units. A size 6 city nets 6 bonus gold, translates to 3 units. So unit support in republic is closer to 4/9! Well, ok, there is some loss due to corruption. Lets say it is 2/7 then.
And you will probably not need that many units. So a part of the bonus gold can go to SCI
 
I have no trouble keeping up in research at Emperor level at all. More commerce, while always good, is not a goal in itself. I play to grab territory so I do need those units.

And really, "a size 12 city...", I don't know about you but I've never had more than 3 luxeries on my continent. There's no way I can get to size 12 anytime soon not building Temples etc. especially without military police. So what you are saying is stop that warmongering style of play and go back to being a builder instead?

And all your fancy math can't change the fact that with Republic I go bankrupt not researching much while in Feudalism I steam ahead of my opponents with a strong army to boot! There's no doubt Republic is better builder style and small army, the question is if it's also better when you build xoox pattern and play a warmongering style.
 
But I enconquer my continent first too... in republic. :p I wouldn't call that builder style.

MP is a waste of units, I use the lux slider.

With 2 lux resources and 20% lux I can keep my size 12 cities happy.

Oh, and city-tile-tile-city all the way! :D
 
MAS said:
But I enconquer my continent first too... in republic. :p I wouldn't call that builder style.

Fair enough. And this works well on Emperor and higher? I am worried in the beginning even building military nonstop. If the sneakattack comes fast enough there's nothing you can do. Last game I was sneakattacked by Russia turn 20 or so.

MAS said:
MP is a waste of units, I use the lux slider.

I have been of the opinion that 3 regular warriors for a total of 30 shields when not requiring any gold in support is a smaller cost than 2-3 steps on the luxery slider for the entire game. I could be wrong I guess but you need to explain this further before I am willing to reconsider.

And of course you don't use MP if you're in Republic, silly. :)

MAS said:
With 2 lux resources and 20% lux I can keep my size 12 cities happy.

I would not have thought that to be enough, 20% makes 9 people content? Are you including any buildings in that statement?

MAS said:
Oh, and city-tile-tile-city all the way! :D

How do you get size 12 cities with that build pattern? My cities run out of room at size 9 or so. Unless of course I irrigate more and use specialists.
 
Panzar75 said:
Fair enough. And this works well on Emperor and higher? I am worried in the beginning even building military nonstop. If the sneakattack comes fast enough there's nothing you can do. Last game I was sneakattacked by Russia turn 20 or so.

At turn 20 I'm still in despotism. So I don't exactly know what you mean.
I usually expand untill all the free land is gone, but I start a switch to unit production before that time arive, so that I can continue to expand after that.
Sometimes I war in despo, and sometimes I switch to republic first, depending on how much free land there is. Though I almost always leave the AA in republic.

I admit I have not played games above Emperor yet, but this works in Emperor alright. And I know there are some SID level players on this forum that advocate republic as the best government aswell.

Panzar75 said:
I have been of the opinion that 3 regular warriors for a total of 30 shields when not requiring any gold in support is a smaller cost than 2-3 steps on the luxery slider for the entire game. I could be wrong I guess but you need to explain this further before I am willing to reconsider.

And of course you don't use MP if you're in Republic, silly. :)

If you you use up your unit support to MP, Then ofcourse you'll "need" all that unit support. :p ;) You could ofcourse leave your cities small, but given the importance of growth in the early turns... Not to mention size 12 cities can pump out units faster. And MP makes people only content, not happy.

Panzar75 said:
I would not have thought that to be enough, 20% makes 9 people content? Are you including any buildings in that statement?

The lux slider makes people happy, not content. MP and buildings make people content.

Sometimes 30%, and sometimes even 40%, (but not for long, as I usually quickly enconquer more lux resources.) This may temporary make a republic worse off, but it is better than having an other anarchy at a later turn. And I regain this loss faster once things get going.

Considder a city size 12, no rivers, no water, no resources, it will create 24 gold, lets say you lose 4 gold to corruption. (still a core, but not your capital) 20% of 20 gold is 4 gold 30% is 6 gold. (1 gold means 1 happy face) But usually a cities has some river nearby, or is at the coast, or has gold hill, or some other resource. so that means extra gold. Cities that are away from the core, it doesn't matter as much if they have a specialist, even a clown.

And no, I don't build temples, caths or colloseums.

Panzar75 said:
How do you get size 12 cities with that build pattern? My cities run out of room at size 9 or so. Unless of course I irrigate more and use specialists.

Simple, Coastal cities can work the coast, leaving more tiles inland.
Only when I am on a very large continent an a huge map will some cities in the middle have some trouble working 12 tiles.
And even then it happens only very rarely, as There is almost always some corrupt city somewhere that doesn't grow to size 12, leaving more tiles for its nearby city. And those then leave tiles for the cities near the nearby cities.
Not to mention I care less for non core cities, as long as my core, and semi-core can work 12 tiles all is fine.
Also, while I said "CxxC all the way" My building pattern isn't 100% strict, I would be limiting myself if I only follow some strict patter. I build my cities close enough that you can considder it a CxxC pattern, and this is what it looks like mostly, but I don't fear to sometimes build a city CxxxC or CxC here and there.

Given all these facts combined, I only rarely have trouble giving a city 12 tiles. And I always make room for my core first, so they have 12 tiles alright.
 
OH, And I still want to say that I usually don't have 5 units per city, including the worker gang. Well, maybe in the early part of the war, but as I gain more land, The ratio units per city will go down. And once I have control of the continent, I will have even less, as the AI is terrible at D-day.
 
The turn 20 comment wasn't meant to show a difference beteween governments just to ilustrate that you, or at least I, will always get sneak attacked every now and then and thus the need for a strong military.

You're right about the happy/content of course. Not that it changes the meaning of what I wrote. In response to "Not to mention size 12 cities can pump out units faster" I don't agree. Two size 6 cities will produce more units over the long run than one size 12 city because of production overruns.

Anyway, the reason I find Republic doesn't work for me isn't so much the hapiness but the huge unit upkeep I get. Naturally I also don't religiously build xoox everyewhere if there's a reason to build slightly differently somewhere. If nothing else, mountains WILL ruin the exact placement although I must admit I go to lengths to avoid xox to appear anywhere.

Don't underestimate Feudalism (generally, not talking directly to MAS) unless you have tried it, it can work pretty darn well under the right circumstances actually. I'm not defending Feudalism blindly, I know many strong players (and seemingly almost everyone) prefer Republic. I just want to know why it won't work as well for me as I have found Feudalism to do.

I would be happy with just accepting Feudalism works better for me if it wasn't for the fact that I haven't seen anyone ever recommend it or even said it could work decently. It's always Republic, Republic, Republic. I'm just afraid I'm missing out.... that's all. Guess I'll try it again in my next game and see. Has been a while since I tried it after all.
 
Kool Keith said:
What is meant by "being ready for Republic"?

What do you try to accomplish before the switch?

Thanks.

Republic (both in C3C and C3/PTW) begins costing gold for support
of military units. The preparation involves boosting the commerce
in your economy by building lots of roads, and ensuring that every tile
which a citizen is working has a road. Otherwise, the sudden drain
on your cash may force you to cut back on your research, and risk
falling behind in the tech race.... or to become a much better tech trader.

In C3/PTW, there is *no* automatic unit support from your cities.
That is, every unit costs gold to support. In C3C, there is a "ladder"
of support that depends on city size (X units from a town, Y units from
a city, Z units from a metropolis). I don't remember the exact values,
but I'm sure another poster will supply them.
 
If you ignore the second anarchy or are religous I think democracy is worth it.
 
If I'm warmongering, I usually go for Monarchy over Feudalism. No war weariness, available earlier...

And I'm not advocating Republic over Feudalism for warmongering. All I mean is that if you allow size 6 cities to move to size 7, you get some more unit support under republic.
 
nc-1701 said:
If you ignore the second anarchy or are religous I think democracy is worth it.
I'm not religious but still the anarchy to democracy was worth it. :)
I've been at war for ~10 turns now and I do fine with 0% lux yet.
 
Sir_Lancelot said:
I've been at war for ~10 turns now and I do fine with 0% lux yet.
Yes, until you try Sid and a massive stack attacks your defenders, and you're forced to revolt on the second turn of the war. :crazyeye:
 
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