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Governments and Politics III

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Stories & Let's Plays' started by Civleader, Aug 16, 2015.

  1. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: workshop requires the tech metal casting, which is still a ways away.... (Tan Qiang speaking of impossible things)
     
  2. Razonatair

    Razonatair Chieftain

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    Aug 26, 2011
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    Texas
    OOC: It is interesting how heavily you guys are straight up using knowledge that these people just wouldn't have.
     
  3. DevilHell

    DevilHell Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2012
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    Han Bo thought to himself, whilst taking one of his enlightening usual walkings downtown, how he could stand out in his family, produce a progress. He came to the idea, but before being able to quite synthesize it, his mind got loudly interrupted by the crossing of different opinions between delirium-driven men.
    Beside drawing by-passers away, their screams comunicated "Change".
    Indeed promoting spiritual growth on the Chinese populace will bring it profit, unquantifiable and unprojectable even to the most dived in intellectuals and experts, therefore it is of most importance, noted HanBo, that Beijing finally provides such a place. Only next to our spiritual strenght can we have strong warriors.
    The research on the management of scarce and up until now unseen materials was more than intriguing to Han Bo, but once again he reasoned: "Where shall we find such new materials? Not likely in the hills we so have roamed time and time again. Not where our food we systematically harvest. Likely but in the deserted Tundra we so much have neglected! Still, Shanghai doesn't posses the populace, if it were to intend working on a source new to discover.
    No, I agree on the other hand! Let us make our Bows better, and structures steadier! It will lead us to stability in fields we refuse to imagine!"
    As to the workers, they shall put their efforts on maximizing our productive capacity as a society.
    Han Bo left a list of his thoughts carved on a wall front of the demented little innovators, as to not put them out of their uncomprehended madness, and followed his way.

    Ooc: construction :D.
    Shrine and then an archer
    My opinion on shanghai is as well build an archer, let us take care of the zulus threat soon.
     
  4. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: @ Razontair:

    It is generally presumed that player characters are above the general mob and have knowledge of things pertaining to Civ V mechanical stuff (research possibilities and the like) and some political acumen. This being because otherwise initial political engagement and transition to player rule would be for all intents and purposes impossible.

    Additionally depending on ones starting point there is some foundation for building up ones characters. For example my character has a background from a middle class yeoman farmer type family (I'm presuming this to be equivalent to petty nobility gentleman types of early modern England, since being middle class presumes they own some small piece of land rather than being lower class peasant tenant farmers, or serfs with no land) and other people presumably have backgrounds in the warrior class, or courtier families (like Christos' character who has background in a family of emissaries of the Wong clan). Ergo as citizens most characters are engaged with the body politic, and presumably have some knowledge of contemporary happenings to go with that.
     
  5. Tambien

    Tambien Theseus, Duke of Athens

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    The Best Place on Earth, Virginia
    I meant water mill. Not exactly sure how that got changed while I was typing, but I've edited it to reflect reality now.
     
  6. Magnive

    Magnive Emperor

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    Dec 31, 2010
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    1,043
    OOC: Apologies for not posting anything, but I'm afraid that I'll have to resign on account of insufficient time. Just started in University, and I signed up for a Challenge Track thing, so I don't expect to have enough time to really participate in this.
     
  7. Civleader

    Civleader King

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
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    Location:
    california
    Session 1 Turn 1 is now over. Orders shall be processed and written under your player profiles in the google document (saves times instead of PMing everyone. Any responses however must be by PM). If your orders are not there once the Midsession Event is posted, send me a PM telling me so.

    A clarification, Dot80 controls all the AI characters listed in the quick reference charts. To contact these chracters, send him a PM specifying which AI character you are contacting.

    No problem, and good luck! Feel free to join back any time.

    A small clarification on classes, at this moment of transition from ancient era to classical era and there have been no changes to the typical "classing concept", class is defined by those who have employment and can afford the basics of food, housing, clothing and other basics. Being middle class does not necesarily mean they own land, but that working as a farmer includes you receive food enough to sustain youself and its value to trade for other necessities. Since money is yet to be discovered, and many industries are still lacking (the crafting one is barely starting up) it is still easy to afford a comfortable life with very little.
     
  8. cpm4001

    cpm4001 Goggleman

    Joined:
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    Not here
    Can I request a 24-hours-warning next turn? I'm in the midst of getting stuff underway for my classes and completely missed the deadline. Assume, I suppose, that my character did nothing of any actual importance...
     
  9. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    Will do so from now on. Usually it is two days to submit orders once a session-turn starts, so I'll give a warning after the first day.
     
  10. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    Midsession Event

    All was quiet as the sun rose over the hills east of Beijing. The previous days had gone over as calm as usual, except for the speeches in the main square, which had caught the attention of some. Many spoke of honoring spirits by building a special building in which to conduct rites, causing no reaction or attention. Some applause was heard after mentioning the expansion the armies of China to protect the lands from. There were cheers to the mentioning of creating a building to take advantage of the river’s force. Yet all these reactions seemed to be muffled, quieted even. People were not as expressive or as open as one would think. The days continued to everyone going about on his or her business. The middle and poor classes worked, those in the lower districts waited in line for food, and the rich surveyed their lands and cargo as usual.

    But there was movement behind closed doors and in the shadows. Discussions on the future of Beijing ringed in the chambers of the powerful and in the houses of the interested. Yet no official words yet from the lord and his council.

    The upper classes awaited a decision of Lord Wong and the council. What would be coming to Beijing and Shanghai?

    Session 1 Turn 2 has now begun

    (your order's results are in your player profiles)
     
  11. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Public Speech (Shu Wei)

    -

    It has been argued that constructing a water mill would provide much benefit to Beijing and to China, and indeed it is the case that food supply would be increased (ooc: by 2) and production of certain goods hastened (ooc: +1 hammer) by such a project. However it is my certain belief that these material benefits are subordinate to the spiritual benefits that would come with a shrine, and that additionally the best of these benefits can be had immediately rather than after the delay of a construction period through reallocation of the state corvee (ooc: citizen allocations).

    On this second point, that the best of the benefits of a water mill can be had immediately through other methods. I previously mentioned in one of my speeches, that the state reallocating corvee labour from the farms to the desert hill and the stone outcroppings would greatly improve production, with this improvement being far beyond that which would be gained from a water mill (ooc: +3 from citizen reallocation to +1 from water mill), with this benefit rendering additionally the production benefit from a water-mill far from significant.

    At the same time while this reallocation would reduce our regular food supply (ooc: from +7 to +3, +5 once the granary is completed in 3 or less turns), something the proposed water mill project would increase. I maintain that in terms of the social effect, this would actually be to the benefit of China. Excess food supply has heretofore resulted in a high population growth rate, resulting in increased unhealthiness and the unsatisfactory expansion of slums and impoverished classes which have seen the greatest amount of population growth. Lowering this growth rate through reallocating corvee labour to emphasise production would, particularly if my previous suggestion that the state should construct a quarry on the stone and then proceed to build a mine on the desert hill is followed, greatly improve this situation.

    In particular, emphasising production and building upon this by constructing a quarry and a mine would expand avenues for employment in the construction, mining and crafting sectors thus reducing the amount of people dependant on state largesse by providing avenues of work which raise people out of the lower classes into a higher standard of living. Together with reducing food surpluses and thus the population growth rate, this would result in a reduction of the number of people living on state benefits and abiding in abject poverty, reducing criminality, unhealthiness and various other social evils. Social evils which additionally would be even further reduced through a shrine providing spiritual services for personal and social cultivation, and maintaining the relations between the human and spiritual orders of existence.

    These benefits being so, noting that the production benefits of a water mill are minimised by simply reallocating state labour and that rampant population growth at present can be said to be detrimental, increasing our growth rate through construction of a water mill, or at the very least reducing it only by a marginal level (should corvee reallocation and the watermill project go ahead simultaneously at councils behest) or not at all can be said to be ill-advised.

    Therefore it is quite clear that the proposal to construct a shrine after the granary project is completed, followed by, and here I defer to the wisdom of others who have stressed this point, training a new military unit to counteract Zulu aggression, is eminently superior to the proposal promulgated by my friend and fellow student Tan Qiang, and his thought that a water mill after the current granary project is completed would be a better state project than a shrine at the current time.

    -

    ooc:

    1: supporting complete granary > shrine > military unit
    2: arguing against a water mill on the basis that maintaining high population growth rate is detrimental socially, and that together with my citizen reallocation proposal (with associated reduced population growth rate), shrine plan, quarry>mine proposal, the overall situation of the people of Beijing would be greatly improved with many families becoming raised out of poverty, with the amount of people in the lower class itself being concordantly reduced. With this hence making a water mill plan (which would raise excess food supply and thus population growth rate) an inferior choice, particularly given its production benefits are minor compared to what can be gained just by reallocating labour.

    @GM: What natural wonder is that mountain on the strategic maps (its either Kilimanjaro or Fuji I would guess, but I can't tell :( )
     
  12. Et_Absoluti

    Et_Absoluti First Citizen

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    I agree with Shu Wei. What use are more citizens if they languish in poverty and hunger? What good can they do for China when they must turn to crime to sustain themselves? I have ventured to the lower districts and it is close to hell on earth. I fully support Shu Wei's plan to reduce the amount of people in poverty.
     
  13. filli_noctus

    filli_noctus Hmmn

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    Public Speech
    While it is the duty of every citizen to support our society it is also the duty of society to see that the needs of citizens are fulfilled. Whilst the needs of the citizens for food, protection and productive work are, for the most part, adequately fulfilled and our great monuments provide the culture that they desire their spiritual needs go unmet.

    While those of us who can afford it are able to maintain private places to venerate Tian and the ancestors there are many more who cannot. And by holdin all such veneration in private our faith grows separately from the rest of the community. By building a shrine all will be able to properly perform their venerations and by giving the citizens a place to worship publicly our faith shall grow as one and society shall draw closer together and be stronger for it.
     
  14. dot80

    dot80 Emperor

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    Discussion

    Though your arguments are long and developed Shu Wei, I think they also lack a practicality that is needed in times such as these. As my fellow council member Han Zhi pointed out, the Zulu are a real and imminent threat. They have encroached upon our sovereignty by settling along our northern border, and have snubbed us in past diplomatic meetings. They mean us harm, and every year that passes without more men to guard us, is another year in danger. You yourself have acknowledged this, and have agreed the construction of a unit to defend ourself is pertinent. Yet you still relegate it to second after a shrine. In light of the urgency with which we are beset to the north, I suggest, contrary to your argument, that after the completion of the granary we build another warrior, immediately.

    Following a warrior, I think its important that in our early stages of development we remain focused on the material benefits of practical construction projects, rather then the "spiritual benefits" you suggest a shrine will bring. This brings me to Fi Lee's argument that some are able to afford private places of worship while others cannot. I say to him, and to all those who have private places of worship, open up your private shrines to the public! Or if not that, then reallocate some of your personal resources to funding a public place to worship. If such a place were created and were successful, then perhaps in another decade or two we could discuss building a full-scale shrine as you have supported.

    Now, however, it is important that we continue to improve our ability to produce material wealth in the form of food, production, and commerce. As such, I agree with Tan Qiang. His proposal to construct a water mill would boost Beijing's construction output, while yielding another two food. This, in conjunction with the citizen management reallocation as Shu Wei has suggested, would mean the Beijing could achieve the optimal level of production output possible. Then perhaps, we could consider the construction of a shrine, which under my plan, would be finished in the least amount of time possible.
     
  15. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    There are 24 hours left to submit orders to those who have yet to do so. To those who have you shall receive a confirmation of orders submitted soon.

    @Jehoshua: I believe the natural wonder you see is Mount Fiji.
     
  16. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Discussion

    The honourable councilman Cheung must be joking when he suggests that people open their homes to all and any persons that they might make use of private shrines. A home is not meant to be a public thoroughfare at the very least, not to mention the risk of thieves and criminals to ones property should anyone be allowed to walk in as they wish.

    But putting your jests aside, I think building a public shrine prior to training a military unit is reasonable not only because of the reasons pertaining to social improvement I previously mentioned, but also given the factors that impact upon the Zulu situation.

    -

    Firstly: If Lord Hong institutes a reallocation plan in Shanghai, transferring corvee labour from the tundra to the silver mines, wealth nationally will improve by at least a third (ooc: from 4 to 6), enabling the state to afford the costs of hiring outright a military unit in Beijing or Shanghai within three years (ooc: accounting for granary maintenance costs, without a granary it would be five turns instead of six), satisfying the need for a military unit within the same time frame as could be expected should Beijing train a military unit from scratch after the completion of the granary project, assuming of course that my citizen reallocation proposal for Beijing proceeds at the will of Lord Wong. Hence it is quite possible to satisfy our military needs while proceeding with a shrine project.

    Secondly: Note that using state funds to establish a military unit, and training a military unit after a shrine would certainly result in doubling our military forces within 5 years (ooc: 3/4/4 split of turns for granary, shrine, warrior/archer respectively in Beijing if not better if we gain more production capacity during that time) if all parts of my proposal are followed, while we would simultaneously gaining the social and economic benefits already mentioned by myself and others that pertain to a shrine should my proposal be approved by council. Hence again, we can suitably satisfy China's military needs against the Zulu menace, without needing to sacrifice social development or forfeit the economic and humanitarian benefits my proposal would result in.

    Thirdly: Note the Zulu armies would require suitable mobilisation time, superior numerical numbers to overcome city defences and militia, and at the same time a reasonable guarantee of security for their homeland from third party threats for an invasion to be feasible on their part. Hence, presuming their leadership isn't completely idiotic, a certain amount of time exists before the Zulu would be prepared to wage a true invasion. In this time, if Fei Li's proposal to scout the nation believed to exist to the east of the Zulu is approved and emissaries are sent to establish an alliance with them against the Zulu, than it is not unreasonable to propose that we can extend that time and avert any Zulu invasion in the immediate term, using that time to build countervailing forces against Zulu power. I would note also, that the possibility of the Zulu being rendered unable to invade due to that third nation, may be the case already if that nation (ooc: the border of which appears on our maps) is hostile already to Zululand.

    -

    These three reasons amongst the reasons previously supplied lead me to the conclusion that a shrine project is indeed superior as compared to training a warrior immediately before proceeding into a water mill. I need not reiterate I hope the detriments to a watermill project socially given that such a project would do nothing to alleviate current rates of poverty, and indeed would probably exacerbate them given it would increase excess food supply while providing little in the way of jobs (ooc: a mill is a mill, and we are not lacking for flour). Additionally I would note that both proposals would result in the same increase in the size of China's military within five years if followed through (1 for 1 if unit not bought, 2 for 2 if unit is bought in each proposal) hence it would be an error to say that the end result in terms of security differs greatly between the two proposals.
     
  17. Exhera

    Exhera Unorthodox Unicorn

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    Dropping.
     
  18. Wyverncraft

    Wyverncraft ¡Viva la Revolución!

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    Hey, can I join as Wu Tang?
     
  19. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    Sure! welcome to the game :) I shall PM your stats briefly.
     
  20. ReEmmeline

    ReEmmeline Chieftain

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    Discussion

    I have had little to say so far that has not been already said. I agree that a shrine would greatly benefit us in the long term by bringing the community together, and also that the Zulu threat cannot be ignored. But on the subject of training a new military unit, there's one question I have not heard asked: what sort of unit?

    We do not know what the Zulu are capable of. By the time they decide to attack, they may have developed weapons far surpassing the clubs our warriors wield. Such a battle would be a rout. Therefore, I say the next military unit we train or hire (whichever is decided) should be a unit of Archers to be garrisoned in Shanghai for defense. We must also study metalworking until we can make our own weapons more effective. (ooc: Research Bronzeworking) Any objections?
     

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