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Governments and Politics III

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Stories & Let's Plays' started by Civleader, Aug 16, 2015.

  1. Civleader

    Civleader King

    Joined:
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    Information of China

    Spoiler Beijing :

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    Spoiler Shanghai :

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    Spoiler Military and Health Overview :

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    Spoiler Economic Overview :

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    Spoiler Tech Tree :
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    Spoiler Trade Overview :

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    Spoiler Diplomatic Overview :

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    Spoiler Social Policy :
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    Spoiler Strategic Maps :

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  2. filli_noctus

    filli_noctus Hmmn

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    Public Speech
    I know that many in the city disagreed with the construction of a shrine, arguing that it would be of no use should the Zulu barbarians attack. But I believe they have been proven wrong, even though construction has only just begun, Tian has seen fit to reward our veneration by revealing to us a potential ally against the northern menace.

    We should immediately send an emmisary to Athens to discuss an alliance against the common foe. The map returned by the scouts clearly shows the borders of what can only be a third Greek city which is as close to the Zulu capital as Shanghai is and will be similarly at threat from these savages.
     
  3. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Public Speech

    The military coup in Ulundi is disconcerting news, but at the same time heavens providence has provided China with sure oracles pointing the way forward. I thus concur with Fei Li when he argues that it is imperative to seek alliance with the Greeks against the barbarous Zulu and contain their threat to the frozen wastes of the north.

    Additionally I would argue that there is good reason, perhaps not immediately but in relatively swift succession once our defensive and civic (ooc: happiness mostly) requirements are met, to begin preparations towards settling a third city at the foot of, or in the vicinity of Mt Tai (ooc: Mt Fuji, replacing holy Japanese mountain with holy Chinese mountain name). This is not so much for the cause of faith and community, although that cause would be much advanced by claiming that holy mountain and the blessings of the land god for China. But rather because that region is extremely strategically important, in my humble opinion, for China.

    A city there would prevent the possibility of the Zulu from expanding south and additionally would secure the land routes to Indonesia and Greece from Beijing, thus greatly assisting the cause of trade not only with our potential allies in the form of the Greeks against said Zulu's, but with the Indonesian's who have already shown interest in trade with us. A city in this location would additionally aid in ensuring further expansion to the south is secured as China's population grows, should that avenue of national expansion be of interest to future Lords of China.

    -

    With regards to the policy of Beijing, while the citizen reallocation policy I proposed, and the late Lord Wong executed, has been a proven success there is still much improvement that can be done both in the capital and in Shanghai. With regards to our northern city, I would propose reallocating citizens from the silver mine to the completed farm, allowing the population to grow in that city, allocating additional corvee once the population has grown to the mine (so both the mine and the farm are worked) and continuing the current project, training a chariot archer upon the archer projects completion. In Beijing I support for the training of an two archers and a circus in succession, this to be followed by training a settler to claim the land around Mt Tai. The archers will guarantee our defence against our foes, and lay the suitable military groundwork for expansion, whereas a circus would improve the happiness of the population and serve to ameliorate at least some of our social problems. With regards to our current military, I support sending our latest unit of archers to a position between Shanghai and Beijing (ooc: hill to the right of the horses perhaps) in order to enable them to assist either city in the event of an attack, while in the meantime keeping observation current on Zulu activities in UMgungundlovu.

    -

    ooc: second part is edited in.
     
  4. ReEmmeline

    ReEmmeline Chieftain

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    Discussion

    I agree. The area around Mt. Tai is not only extremely strategically important, but fertile as well, and will provide us with the resources we need to keep growing. In addition to the cattle, the region also has sugarcane, which will give us one more resource to trade and help keep our people happy as well. I say we research a calendar, which should not take long, followed by construction to improve our bows.

    And don't think this frivolous. Having another resource to trade may be vital to securing an alliance with the Greeks. If we cannot convince them of the worth of such an alliance, they may turn to the Zulus instead, which is the last thing we want. We will need to act fast.

    ooc: Please just overlook this if I'm wrong. I thought I saw a sugar icon, but it's kind of hard to read. Can we get a resource list? Or is there one already that I missed?
     
  5. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    ooc: yes that is sugar.
     
  6. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Discussion

    I support the proposal suggesting we research calendar followed by construction after the completion of current research on trapping.
     
  7. Patchy

    Patchy Emperor

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    Public Speech

    The seizure of power by the military of the Zulu is a dark omen for the citizens of China, as brutes such as them know only how to use force to take what they desire. And I fear that as they take control of their people they will begin to look south and see our great cities and have their eyes fill with envy.

    As such it is imperative that in Beijing we first recruit another unit of Archers, and then build about our city mighty Walls in order to not only better defend ourselves but also provide our citizens with peace of mind. After which I agree with Shu Wei that we ought to construct a circus before sending a group of settlers to found a new city near Mt. Tai as it would be in the best interests of our people.

    In Shanghai it would be best to construct a Granary after the completion of the unit of Archers, in those cold lands a good place to store food would go a long way towards growing the city and making it more profitable. Furthermore we should reallocate the citizens from the mines to the farms in the south to bring in more food so that soon we will have the ability to work both the mines for silver and the farms to keep the city growing.

    But as China expands we are faced with a new set of problems, how will we be able to secure the unity of our citizens as they continue to travel and live further from Beijing than our ancestors had ever imagined? To better account for the strains that will be caused by the expansion of our people I suggest that we give our citizens further Representation and as such guarantee the unity of the Chinese people. Furthermore I believe that such an action will propel us into a great era of productivity and commerce as our people find themselves more invested in the success of China than ever before. Such a thing could not come at a better time to help guard ourselves against the threat of the Zulu.
     
  8. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    Young Wong Zan Guo stood in the middle of the hall admiring the seat of his father and of lords before him. It was now empty, idle behind a curtain of sun-rays. It would not be empty for long.

    The steward entered the chambers, disrupting the silence of his thoughts.
    "I have a document you may wish to read, and maybe share with all of China."
    Zan Guo took the document. They were laws written by his father before he passed away. They followed his new policy of legalism. "It was time to write laws and procedures and for them to be followed to the letter. Customary law and its vague interpretations would be no more.
    "Spread this for it to be read across the city. They may be my father's last words to the people."

    The document read:

    ooc: Take these set of laws as you will. Do they hold the authority of the former lord, even after his death? Should they provide a basis for a new set of laws? These and other questions are legitimate and up for discussion in such times of transition caused by legalism.
     
  9. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Public Speech

    I disagree with Sun Chih when he says we should give further representation to the citizenry. This I think will only exacerbate existing issues pertaining to lack of clear hierarchy, competing interests, and unclear succession within the ruling apparatus of state by bringing in the masses to the political process. Rather I think unifying the state through establishing a formal monarchy, be it elective as is current with regards to the Lords of China, or hereditary, is a far superior option which would bring contentedness to the people and bolster business certainty for our merchants. The powers a monarch would have, naturally would be determined by council.

    On other matters though Sun Chih is broadly right, although given that one of our long term objectives should be pushing back the Zulu menace, that is to say removing the arrow of UMgungundlovu pointed at Beijing from the equation, rather than waiting for them to passively attack us, I think my proposal to focus our efforts on strengthening our military to the utmost, rather than building a wall, with an eye to proactively removing the threat when time and circumstance, and the strength of chinese power allows, is superior.

    With regards to the laws promulgated by the late Lord Wong. Given the current time of transition my opinion is that it would be beneficial and in the interests of national stability for council to discuss them, and if they are found unobjectionable reaffirm and ratify them. In this way there would be no doubt of their authority as there might otherwise be in the case given their posthumous reception. I also think the final law (16) needs further consideration specifically with regards to [has sole right to rent and grant rights to those lands as he pleases] as heretofore various landowners (landowning council members) have held allodial rights to their land which has been taken as inviolate, and which this law would effectively steal away if it is taken word for word. This would, naturally, be unjust. The law on executive authority (2) is also somewhat vague, and should be further defined, particularly with regards to the role of council. The law on words (7) also should be amended to they shall not commit perjury. That is to say, give false reports in official capacity or before a judicial authority. To criminalise lies in general would be unrealistic even as everyone has a personal moral obligation to tell the truth, particularly those in power.

    -

    ooc: monarchy would greatly help with our low levels of happiness and add +1 commerce to boot. Representation on the other hand is only a contingent benefit inasmuch as its effects are dependant on how we utilise the resulting golden age, and on the lower negative penalty to social policy acquisition per additional city it entails.
     
  10. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    ooc: I like 10. a lot. Especially since there is no religion to speak of at all right now. :p
     
  11. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: there is religion at the folk level, just no state religious organisation. At this point that law would probably just mean "anyone who worships Zulu gods" and the like.
     
  12. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    ooc: you can't really define heresy without organised religion.
     
  13. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    ooc: Heresy is any provocative belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs. This does not require organised religion to occur, albeit you are somewhat right in that you can't have a formal dogmatic definition of religious heresy without a legitimate authority (organisation or person) to proclaim the decree.

    At any rate, since Civleader promulgated it eo ipso one must presume it has contextual validity. I presumed therefore that by heresy at this point in time, it is meant things like worshipping the gods of China's foes, or sacrificing babies to the desert to pray for rain.

    -

    @gm: When are orders due for the first turn? I have pending correspondence so I am a bit reluctant to send in orders now... If I know the deadline that would be most helpful.
     
  14. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    24 hours left to submit orders for Session 2 Turn 1
     
  15. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    A slight but important change: Dot80 will be unable to continue helping me with AI characters so I will be controlling all AI now. Any correspondence with the AI should now be directed to me. This should be important as they are meeting during this time to decide on the new lord of Beijing.

    (Tip: take the time to get to know these characters so you may take advantage of their ambitions, goals and personalities to get to power)
     
  16. Et_Absoluti

    Et_Absoluti First Citizen

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    Going to have to drop this, my schedule doesn't allow for it. May pick it back up at a later date :)
     
  17. Patchy

    Patchy Emperor

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    Public Speech

    For someone who has said to greatly value our traditions and customs Shu Wei appears to have an alien idea of what those are compared to what I see. The idea of a hereditary monarch is far removed from the society our ancestors built which rests upon the council acting as the representatives of the people and a guiding force for the chosen Lord. By giving more representation to the citizenry we would empower the council which serves as its representative in the state and restructure them in a hierarchical way with clear lines of succession so that they would be more capable of assisting the Lord in guiding China. It would also make expansion across the lands easier as the settlers of these new lands would always be closely tied back to Beijing through their representatives. To this end it might be best for the council to consider Zhou Su for the position of Lord as having a Lord popular with the citizenry would also increase their own position.

    However in matters relating to Lord Wong's last laws I believe Shu Wei speaks wisdom in his points and also agree that the council should discuss them.

    In Shanghai the workers should be sent to create a mine on the silver located near the Zulu lands, I also advise sending warriors to guard our mine there as it is so close to Zulu territory. Once the mine has been built I would advise we trade our excess silver with either the Greeks for their high quality Furs or the Portuguese for incense (?if that is what that lux is) as these new products would bring great happiness to our people and riches to our tradesmen.

    OOC: Happiness problems will be dealt with as we get our other silver mine online and thus be capable of trading luxury resources with the AI as well as the boost given by the circus. Representation means that we can get future policies (like monarchy) faster as we expand and the boost from the golden age would allow us to not only make a force capable of fighting off the Zulus but also invading and conquering them like you suggested (with reduced culture penalty for annexing cities).
     
  18. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Public Speech

    On the contrary, I supported the principle of monarchy already established in China, be it elective as is current this being preferred, or hereditary as a means to provide stability, under terms established by council. This is hardly discordant with tradition. Nonetheless I maintain that increasing representation would prove damaging to our society, as expanding the political process will involve further factional divisions as competing interests compete for influence, pitting class against class and politician against politician and only exacerbating the divisions that already afflict China's affairs. Strengthening the authority of the head so that the body may be strong is only sensible in that regard.

    To this end I would support Lord Zhao Jian Yong for the position of Lord of China. As the head of one of the four great merchant families his candidature would be consistent with the traditional arrangements regarding succession to the Lordship, this consistency being important as compared to making radical innovations that could cause disruptions and social disorder, given the ever-present menace of the Zulu under their new military leadership, who are certainly watching for any signs of weakness on our part. This is of course not a testament to Lord Zhou's abilities and credentials as peoples champion, which I am certain are excellent, but to the broader modus vivendi which has served China well thus far.

    -

    ooc: the happiness bonus from silver will be nullified in short order by population increase and likewise with the settlement of a new city, whereas the monarchy happiness bonus increases with population in the capital making it a superior and imo necessary boost prior to expansion to ensure we keep stability amongst the people. The golden age boost would be nice, but I don't think its necessary for a military buildup, and also UMgungundlovu should be burned, not annexed, its in a bad spot and conquering it would bring a hostile minority into the equation, ergo the annexing penalty reduction is irrelevant inasmuch as it would fit into my intentions regarding the Zulu (should they be followed)
     
  19. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    Session 2 Turn 1 is now over. Processing time has begun (you may still communicate with the AI)
     
  20. Civleader

    Civleader King

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    Midsession Event

    “Zhou Su! Zhou Su! Zhou Su!” the people chanted. They were amassed at the public square, thousands of them. Their chants could be heard in almost all the districts. The councilmen stood at the gates looking at the crowd. They were announcing the death of Zhao Jian Young, a death of natural causes at the age of 39. Yet people ignored the fact. They were here for another reason.
    “People of Beijing!” Zhou Su began, quieting down the crowd. “Your wishes have been heard by the council!” the crowds cheered again. Zhou Su smiled and waved. Chow Bo had a smirk of amusement on his face, while Zhao Jian Yong and Kwok Ah Bo scowled. Wong Zan Guo had a poker face while Hou Xu Chao rubbed his small beard, thinking. Ma Tu and Han Zhi exchanged looks, while Lam Tu simply stood with his arms folded.
    “If it is I you truly want to hold the lordship of this land, than I shall accept the proposition! Yet tradition is tradition and it should not be taken lightly. We shall continue discussing and come to a conclusion soon enough. But your words weigh more then all the wealth of Beijing!”
    As the councilmembers returned to the chambers of the palace, the crowds continues chanting the name of Zhou Su.

    In other news from Shanghai, young Hong Qing went out of the small palace to speak to the people on the matters of succession. He was accompanied by Rhee Syngman, the silent right hand, and a steward, who began to speak.
    “People of Shanghai, I present to you the new lord of Shanghai, Lord Hong Qing!”
    The people bowed and cheered. Young Hong Qing then began:
    “I thank you for your support and recognition. With your help, we shall build this city to its destined grandeur. This city shall become a beacon of knowledge and virtue. My trusted friend Rhee Syngman shall be helping me accomplish those goals. He shall captain the new Security Forces being created to protect the city from the common dangers and from subversive individuals. And as we celebrate this day I would also like to announce the wedding of my sister, Hong Zhen, to the distinguished Rhee Syngman. May the city enjoy the happiness of this day through the city-wide celebrations!”

    The people cheered, and Shanghai was engulfed in a festival of food and drink offered by Hong Qing. The public square was filled with almost all the population, as the festivities extended to the market and other regions of the district.

    Yet as the day grew dark there was scrambling in the palace. A councilmember had also died of natural causes that day. The rumors spread quickly of a death, yet it was uncertain whom. People gathered in the main square to learn who had died. The councilmen wet out once more and announced the unfortunate news.
    “It is with sadness that we must inform you of a death of a great councilman. The illuminated Zhou Su collapsed from old age in the palace. He leaves us today with great knowledge and with a great history. As such plans must change and the council sessions must go on. We shall return to continue our duty so we can then mourn in peace.”

    People mourned and cried all day and night in the public square. They were in pain, and most of all they were disappointed. Their champion was gone, their voice in the council muffled. Many would ask Lam Tu or Ma Tu to hear them out, but the chants were in less strength. Many wondered how such a tragedy could occur in such a crucial time.

    Deaths:

    Zhao Jian Yong
    Zhou Su

    Session 2 Turn 2 has now begun
     

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